Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford on youtube and reading the associated textbooks) makes me confident that I will have a short and unhappy life.
Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life. He talked about the optimum time to get married is 26. He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
Dr Sopolsky spoke about biological markers that may affect human behavior - both inherited and environmentally influenced.
At 35 I am starting to suspect that I may be on the spectrum ( I kinda expected some adult to tell me this as a child, if it's true ).
The males on my fathers side (with the exception of my uncle) do not make it past 67.
My mothers side has inter-generational trauma that I know i've inherited avoidant behaviors that limit my social ability.
>Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life.
Welp, I guess I'm dead then.
>around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult
Maybe it's just me but my personality keeps changing every year or so, based on the positive and negative experiences and challenges from living abroad alone, having to always adapt to new stuff to stay mentally, financially and socially afloat.
I assume it's different if you spend your whole life in the same place you grew up in with the same people doing the same things. Maybe the brain checks out from the repetition.
>avoidant behaviors that limit my social ability
Move aboard to another country where you don't speak the language.
If it’s true then this is a propensity and not a rule.
My mood in college was suicidal. My mood by my 30s was better than most people I’ve ever met (sans hiccup from a year of no sleep with a newborn).
Looking back my horrible mood in college was probably caused by isolation, no sleep, high pressure course load, and too much alcohol. And I’ve noticed my mood drops dramatically when I get it in my head that I need to be more successful, at any point in my life.
It's probably you! My personality has been basically the same since I was 4. I also live abroad and have for the past 5 years, though, so I guess I just lucked out and got a personality that works well in most conditions and with most people.
This is also my experience. I was miserable from 13 until 35yo. Then made big changes.
I think it is extremely dangerous to make that affirmations, that may take away any hope some depressed folk may have, being 25 and having a hard time.
The rationale about 25 years and the cortex should be much better explained, I think.
> He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
It’s true that neuroplasticity tends to decline around this age, but there are several important caveats:
- Exercise, especially cardiovascular exercise, promotes the release of BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor), which enhances neuroplasticity. Consistency matters, regular aerobic activity raises baseline BDNF levels, while sporadic exercise only causes short-term spikes. Studies even show that long-term cardiovascular exercise can alter brain structure.
- Belief in your ability to learn is associated with better learning outcomes and higher neuroplasticity markers. Whether this comes directly from belief or from the behaviors it encourages, it’s still practical advice. Don’t entertain thoughts that you can’t adapt or learn -- especially during exercise.
- Psychedelic experiences (with substances such as psilocybin, ketamine, or LSD) can open what’s called an “acute neuroplastic window”. During this time, brain network dynamics become more flexible and neuroplasticity increases. Surround yourself with the right people, ideas, books, during this period, and it can lead to dramatic positive change. But as this state can amplify both constructive and destructive influences, proceed with care and good research.
There's nothing wrong with being unhappy, IMO - you can still channel those emotions into something meaningful.
But if you do want to be happy, you can find stories, if you look hard and long enough, of "outliers". People who, against all odds, defied "statistics" and broke out of whatever expectations society and "facts" projected onto them.
I tried "everything" until age ~27 when I finally found one dial (very specific elimination diet) that made the rest of my body act mostly normally. Other changes were easier to make from that point onwards, altho there's a lot of damage to undo still. Diet is just one factor, for others it could be completely different.
My point is - I thought I would never be healthy. This stuff runs in my family too. But I just kept trying things. There's no other option.
You are a unique human being and soul who has something valuable to contribute to this world. Even if that's being unhappy.
Hope that doesn't sound condescending, it's something I tell myself too.
It sounds like therapy would be really nice for you, but here are my 2 cents.
1. I have never been more depressed as I was in grad school. My life has gotten way better and stayed there after college.
2. I got married at 30 and I have friends that got married older. This same statistical logic is what you hear about marriage (52% divorce!). What you don’t hear in that statistic is that a lot of people make terrible decisions. My point is that not being married early is a proxy for having a bad attitude, which I suspect they’re really measuring.
3. Intergenerational trauma may be a thing, but you have tools at your disposal. Cognitive behavioral therapy is something I stand behind and recommend to you personally.
Just remember: things won’t change in your life without faith that they will change
You mention somewhere else that the lectures you watched were from 2008. That was probably at the height of the replication crisis. I'd suggest to look into more recent research, and/or to simply discard all this knowledge as bogus.
> Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life. He talked about the optimum time to get married is 26. He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
Some of this sounds more like ideology and less science, especially when deterministic tendencies are getting mixed up when talking about psychology.
> Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford
Also interesting that sensationalized statements always end up coming from places like that, exclusively pertaining to the rotten individualist lifestyle in the United States.
I have a hard time dismissing the teachings of field experts lecturing at the US's most prestigious higher education institutions as 'ideology'. Maybe it is easier for you through me as a conduit since I provide no evidence, studies, and am only a layman relaying conclusions
Have these males exercised for about 2-3 hours per week? If no, and you do not have this consistency too, that's one thing that's relatively simple to add to your life, which will also increase your overall happiness. That alone probably adds another 5 years and pushes your healthy lifespan forward too.
>Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford on youtube and reading the associated textbooks) makes me confident that I will have a short and unhappy life.
By making this prediction you already run afoul of the findings in the article!
>At 35 I am starting to suspect that I may be on the spectrum
I mean, the ample parentheticals in your comment are proof enough :)
> the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25
...which is bunk; the studies that are cited as showing this actually showed changes in the prefrontal cortex up to the oldest people in their study, which was 25-year-olds.
Current research suggests that it continues changing throughout our lives.
Mine does not work that well, and I am in 30s. So, I keep hoping for better days. Maybe it's a biased take, but I feel like I have seen some better changes in my 30s and my 20s.
I suspect optimism is learned to some extent. Past experiences and outcomes shape your optimism, because it skews your bias.
People who had good things happen and got lucky get more optimistic as that's their experience.
If true, it might be that good genetics and environment gives you exceptional longevity, and also increases your chances of good outcomes at every step of your life which in turn make you an optimist.
Off course, I'd love to believe it's your mindset that affects outcomes, as it would give you control over your destiny, but it's precisely because that truth is so tempting that I'm extra skeptical of it.
This sounds like it should be true, but from life experience, I don't really think it is.
It would be rational for things to work that way, but personalities and emotions are not very rational.
There are some people who seem like they have everything in life going for them, and they're still pessimists, their narrative of the world is petty and ugly, or cruel.
Conversely, there are other people who have suffered tragedies that I might consider literally unbearable (i.e. suicide-worthy), and they are still optimists.
I think these are more fundamental personality traits.
You can see it in siblings that grow up in essentially identical conditions, but one has a "sunny disposition" and another is anxious and worried.
Aye, I think this matches. I'm generally quite an optimistic and trusting person, and it's bitten me in the backside in a big way recently, but I don't think that's changed my outlook much. (Though, I think this is modulated by a lot of experience working in R+D where I feel like you need a healthy mix of optimism and pessimism/skepticism. Enough optimism to believe that you will figure it out in the end but enough pessimism that you don't see victory where it isn't or make promises you can't keep)
>People who had good things happen and got lucky get more optimistic
Well there's the old story about the lonely mountain blacksmith from hillbilly times who was hard at work one day, when the beautiful widow from the next mountain over came in and wanted him to fix her broken iron. You know, the kind they had before electricity. So he dropped everything and got right to working on it, and was proud to make it better than new in only about 15 minutes.
She was very thankful, gave him a big smile and then he asked her if it would be OK if he called on her real soon. The only thing is, he was a strong-hearted gentleman, but not very tall, less than 5 feet. And she was a statuesque beauty, just over 6 feet tall. But she was agreeable right away, and he said "How about a kiss good-bye right now?", she nodded and he jumped right up on top of his anvil, gave her a big hug and kiss and there was some excitement between them.
Looking straight into her eyes he then tells her she doesn't have to leave so soon, and they can go out in back and pick some fresh flowers on a wonderful spring day, to take home with her. The hard work can wait for a little while.
It is very romantic and they stroll around for a few minutes until they come to the spot where the roses are growing, then he asks her for another kiss. She was too bashful this time, and said that once was enough for their first meeting, but she was looking forward to having him visit. He said "I understand, but if there's not gonna be any more kissin', I think I'll put this anvil down."
I can’t speak for others, but this might be extra relevant to this forum — I experienced a shift and became more optimistic when I attempted a startup. Luck may play a part, and it might be a big part, I don’t want to downplay that possibility, since being in a position to do a startup requires some luck, being able to go to college and to write software for a living requires some luck, etc. But I had lucky things happen and still less optimism before running my own business.
My personal feeling is that the reason has to do with the mindset that comes from a combination of taking more responsibility for all of my failures (including the business failures, including result of things other people do) and of deciding that I have control over my situation in a broad sense. For example, I could find myself unlucky at any given moment, when I get cheated and lose money, have an accident, someone gets mad at me, or business goes down because of something in the news. All of these things used to make me feel unlucky, but I started to think instead that unlucky things are the result of a situation I put myself into from earlier past decisions. Whatever bad situation comes my way, my life decisions lead me there, so it’s somehow my fault. I started assuming responsibility for all bad luck, and that makes me always ask the question what earlier choices lead me there, and how can I make better choices, even when the answer is thinking about how to avoid unlucky situations that really were out of my control.
This might be one reason why successful founders and other optimists often attribute their success to hard work, but I should add that I do believe strongly that luck plays a very big part in success, and there are downsides to forgetting that or being unable to see it. I try not to take all responsibility for the good things that happen to me, even though that makes me inconsistent.
That said, one way that I think luck can feed optimism is realizing that because success is lucky, it means I should try a lot of different things rather that work harder and try to fix bad situations. If nine out of ten startups fail, then try ten startups!
So… yes my optimism is learned, and luck plays a part. My feeling is that deciding to take responsibility for my failures caused a mental shift towards greater optimism. Maybe that’s rationalization on my part, I can’t tell, but I do feel like it was more than luck.
Your mindset absolutely has an influence on outcomes - how you come off to other people influences how they react to you and treat you. How you look at a problem influences whether you decide to engage with it, and how.
This exists in a gradient space - some things are more readily influenced in this way, others are not, a few are (nearly) completely untouched.
Existence, that is - the Universe, is a complex system. We know at least a few things about those:
- they behave in unintuitive ways. Attempting to predict the behavior of a complex system has an inverse relationship with the granularity and specificity of the prediction.
- the behavior of the whole is unrepresentable in the behavior of the constituent parts (you cannot drive an axle to work, unless it is part of a car)
- they are very resilient against attempts at control, but more susceptible to influence
- they can exhibit features like recursion, inertia, and attraction. Each of these has specific consequences for the behavior of the whole.
The relationship between outlook and outcome is bidirectional - one influences the other and vice versa. This structure has a high chance to exhibit recursive reinforcement, which is why I think we're used to seeing very optimistic and very pessimistic outlooks, with not so many 'middle-of-the-road' types. It does provide a lever to push, however, if one has the fortitude to push through the failures on the way to that tipping point.
I shouldn't be here, the first 20 years of my life were essentially every bad thing, defective body, I had my first birthday party at 30, dead parents, stolen and exploited childhood, moving all the time, constant mortality threat, surgery induced aphantasia, waking surgeries scenarios that spiral some adults into ptsd. Long term thwarted desires because I couldn't get health insurance without being a wage slave pre ACA. Co-founded my own succesful company the moment I could get ACA.
I have a brain and as my wife once told me in a moment of frustration.
"You're just happy to be here" and that is true. I didn't ask to be born and I've generally not enjoyed it, I'm only here because random luck geographically and temporarily allowed me to just squeak by surviving childhood and adolescents, I am a few years away from a cardiological surgery I could easily die in.
But, it's all so damn funny isn't it, what an odd thing to be alive, a little cluster of atoms arranged human wise. I hope I die not having achieved what I want to achieve, I hope, like sharks, I never keep moving.
Humans generate meaning, we are the known, empirically observed generators of the mosy complex meaning in existence and we still don't know and haven't created most stuff, it's early days yet. In the meantime, we're part of the entropic cycle, and we emit meaning the way stars emit photons.
People will say we aren't special, but we are, special and rare and should be preserved, dolphins, et all should be too, but let it be observed that it will be humans and not dolphins that deflect asteroids for the foreseeable future.
Many times when things got bad I thought I'd kill myself, I woke up from so many surgeries I started getting disappointed when I'd wake up, but I was too damn curious about what happens next, I can always end it tomorrow, nbd, I look forward to the perma nap, I'm an accident that shouldn't exist and I can exert casual leverage on the world with mere speech.
Who knows what the future holds, let's give dolphins thumbs, let's give silicon rockets to explore the universe, let's engineer long life so we can start worrying about solving entropy instead of whether or not a single spinning rocks "mid air collision" or 5 degree increase in temperature will cause total societal collapse and put an end to our weird little epicenter of meaning generation.
Maybe we solve entropy, maybe we figure out how to change the topology of spacetime, maybe we don't, it's too early to tell.
Optimism is just the headspace to try again, it's not emotional ignorance, it's not positivity, it's the curiosity to keep trying new experiments, and the humility to not be intellectually certain of despair.
I like your post, as it exhibits a sentiment I can relate to (though I have had a FAR smoother existence than what you've experienced, thus far, I think). I hope you have a rewarding future and I hope that luck is on your side with that upcoming risky surgery.
To me, optimism is a form of acceptance of whatever may come. I will deal with whatever comes my way, and in the meantime, I will expect and work towards "the best" outcomes. Assuming/expecting the worst just adds friction and stress to my consciousness which serves no practical purpose. Why experience the bad things before they even happen? I face stressful "could go either way" situations with the mentality that it will work out, but I am fully ready to deal with the situation going as badly as it could. I prepare mentally for the bad outcomes, but don't dwell on it like many people seem to. It's just not worth it. I figured this out as a kid and developed that way of thinking throughout my life, refining and reinforcing it over time.
I've now outlived a number of friends who I just assumed would always be there to talk to. They died totally unexpectedly, heart attacks and stuff like that. The journey could be over at any moment. I recognize and accept the temporality of everyone in my life including myself, and I actually use this acknowledgement to motivate myself to embrace the opportunity of life and not waste time on stupid bullshit, including thinking negatively or dwelling on fear-based lines of thought. It's like a basic judgment I apply to almost everything I think about, just passively, and it's a great filter to optimize for spending time on things that I think enrich my life (or future life) and that of those around me who I care about.
I think as we get older I see a convergence within my peer group, as we lose friends and family people either seem to orient on peace or bitterness.
Some of us just have the chance to emotionally appreciate and internalize the fragility of existence at an earlier stage.
Do we spend our days focusing on the lack of days and other things outside our control or do we schedule a day at the beach, build a tree house, learn how to cook a bolognese?
One option sounds very boring to me, might as well opt out of existence instead, it's not hard to do.
If anyone wishes to use this study as a catalyst to shift one’s attitude, then I highly recommend dropping the dopaminergic doomloop apps like Reddit/Bluesky/X/tiktok/IG.
Your life will be better for it. Snapchat can stay…for reasons.
It can be both. The further away I get from social media and its singular narratives where it’s always “this ONE thing” form of causeality, the more I realize the mechanisms and causes can be multimodal and compound upon on another.
>I highly suspect you are not an addiction specialist…
Which also means they're not selling addiction help (which profits when addicts remain so), nor is indoctrinated to the professional fads of that racket
Since someone else vocally disagreed, I'll just back this up. If you change your social situation (new job, new friends, etc...) then a lot of other changes seem to be easier, in my experience.
Rage-engagement, something I never needed, and that I knew I needed out of my life, I just didn't know how much of a positive impact it would have to get off it. Sorry Zuck and Spez, but I know you'll be fine without a hatebuck or two.
> For men in NAS, higher baseline optimism levels were similarly related to longer life span (Table 1, NAS; P trend = 0.002). After adjusting for demographics, baseline health conditions, and depression, compared to the least optimistic men, those in the highest quintile had 10.9% (95% CI: 1.3%, 21.5%) longer life span.
They said "controlling for demographics", which seems to imply pretty strongly that income is a controlled for variable if it's part of the "demographics" model. To get a better answer, you'd probably have to dig for the raw data
It makes sense to me, as the article also points out, being more optimistic might indicate lower levels of stress. And (prolonged) stress has been known for a long time to be detrimental to health.
My father is 84 and is among the most cantakerous people ever born. It's a sample size of 1, but he is a counter example since he's never had a single moment of optimism is his entire life!
This is not what the best study at hand has found based on the most extensive human study! Check out The Longevity Project [0][1]! Optimistic people don't pay much attention to symptoms!
A truly committed pessimist would accept this dark omen.
Anyway, this definition of optimism
> or the belief that the future will be favorable because one can control important outcomes
Isn't what one colloquially means by it.
Though it is eye catching that it will make a positive impact even if you don't, actually, control important outcomes, like by not smoking
> These relations were independent of socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors (e.g., smoking, diet, and alcohol use). Overall, findings suggest optimism may be an important psychosocial resource for extending life span in older adults.
It might also be something like: people who experience relatively little psychological distress are optimistic, and also live longer.
We don't like to talk about it, but there is a biological component to how happy or anxious someone is. Not to say that everyone is doomed to be a certain way because of their genetics, but I've known people who are basically never sad, and it's not because they've found some kind of secret of happiness. I have a friend who has the temperament of a golden retriever.
Or less stressing about things and giving less fucks causes longevity.
Which makes even more sense, since stress affects all cause mortality and all kinds of outcomes, and even mere positive disposition towards a treatment is found to make a big difference in patients.
It wouldn't surprise me if healthy, privileged people with access to good healthcare are more optimistic than those with serious illness, no coverage and three shitty jobs.
Hard to be optimistic when you have cancer and can't afford treatment.
> These relations were independent of socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors (e.g., smoking, diet, and alcohol use). Overall, findings suggest optimism may be an important psychosocial resource for extending life span in older adults.
This seems like a rather obvious case of "correlation is not causation". Moreover, the vocabulary of optimism vs pessimism doesn't capture that one can work diligently to avoid pessimistic outcomes, so does that make one optimistic or pessimistic? After adjusting for the correlation, I suspect realists will have the highest longevity.
Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford on youtube and reading the associated textbooks) makes me confident that I will have a short and unhappy life.
Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life. He talked about the optimum time to get married is 26. He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
Dr Sopolsky spoke about biological markers that may affect human behavior - both inherited and environmentally influenced.
At 35 I am starting to suspect that I may be on the spectrum ( I kinda expected some adult to tell me this as a child, if it's true ).
The males on my fathers side (with the exception of my uncle) do not make it past 67.
My mothers side has inter-generational trauma that I know i've inherited avoidant behaviors that limit my social ability.
So great news.
>Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life.
Welp, I guess I'm dead then.
>around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult
Maybe it's just me but my personality keeps changing every year or so, based on the positive and negative experiences and challenges from living abroad alone, having to always adapt to new stuff to stay mentally, financially and socially afloat.
I assume it's different if you spend your whole life in the same place you grew up in with the same people doing the same things. Maybe the brain checks out from the repetition.
>avoidant behaviors that limit my social ability
Move aboard to another country where you don't speak the language.
If it’s true then this is a propensity and not a rule.
My mood in college was suicidal. My mood by my 30s was better than most people I’ve ever met (sans hiccup from a year of no sleep with a newborn).
Looking back my horrible mood in college was probably caused by isolation, no sleep, high pressure course load, and too much alcohol. And I’ve noticed my mood drops dramatically when I get it in my head that I need to be more successful, at any point in my life.
It's probably you! My personality has been basically the same since I was 4. I also live abroad and have for the past 5 years, though, so I guess I just lucked out and got a personality that works well in most conditions and with most people.
67 is still almost 7 decades of life!
What’re you doing for fun?
I was miserable in college but I’ve made significant changes since that have made me way happier.
I think changes are possible at any stage of life. They just might require more commitment since we’re so spongy as kids.
This is also my experience. I was miserable from 13 until 35yo. Then made big changes.
I think it is extremely dangerous to make that affirmations, that may take away any hope some depressed folk may have, being 25 and having a hard time.
The rationale about 25 years and the cortex should be much better explained, I think.
67 is just long enough to die as I'm able to draw benefits from social security, meaning all 45 years worth of contributions have 0 benefit for me.
> He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
It’s true that neuroplasticity tends to decline around this age, but there are several important caveats:
- Exercise, especially cardiovascular exercise, promotes the release of BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor), which enhances neuroplasticity. Consistency matters, regular aerobic activity raises baseline BDNF levels, while sporadic exercise only causes short-term spikes. Studies even show that long-term cardiovascular exercise can alter brain structure.
- Belief in your ability to learn is associated with better learning outcomes and higher neuroplasticity markers. Whether this comes directly from belief or from the behaviors it encourages, it’s still practical advice. Don’t entertain thoughts that you can’t adapt or learn -- especially during exercise.
- Psychedelic experiences (with substances such as psilocybin, ketamine, or LSD) can open what’s called an “acute neuroplastic window”. During this time, brain network dynamics become more flexible and neuroplasticity increases. Surround yourself with the right people, ideas, books, during this period, and it can lead to dramatic positive change. But as this state can amplify both constructive and destructive influences, proceed with care and good research.
There's nothing wrong with being unhappy, IMO - you can still channel those emotions into something meaningful.
But if you do want to be happy, you can find stories, if you look hard and long enough, of "outliers". People who, against all odds, defied "statistics" and broke out of whatever expectations society and "facts" projected onto them.
I tried "everything" until age ~27 when I finally found one dial (very specific elimination diet) that made the rest of my body act mostly normally. Other changes were easier to make from that point onwards, altho there's a lot of damage to undo still. Diet is just one factor, for others it could be completely different.
My point is - I thought I would never be healthy. This stuff runs in my family too. But I just kept trying things. There's no other option.
You are a unique human being and soul who has something valuable to contribute to this world. Even if that's being unhappy.
Hope that doesn't sound condescending, it's something I tell myself too.
It sounds like therapy would be really nice for you, but here are my 2 cents.
1. I have never been more depressed as I was in grad school. My life has gotten way better and stayed there after college.
2. I got married at 30 and I have friends that got married older. This same statistical logic is what you hear about marriage (52% divorce!). What you don’t hear in that statistic is that a lot of people make terrible decisions. My point is that not being married early is a proxy for having a bad attitude, which I suspect they’re really measuring.
3. Intergenerational trauma may be a thing, but you have tools at your disposal. Cognitive behavioral therapy is something I stand behind and recommend to you personally.
Just remember: things won’t change in your life without faith that they will change
almost every comment misunderstands my point. I'm pointing out things in my life that are correlated with longevity.
I'm reflection on indicators that are present in my life and how it relates to OP's article.
I appreciate your opinion and anecdota, but again misses the point that I (apparently) in-artfully expressed
Research focuses on trends. You are a sample of 1, however, so anything is possible. Create your own path!
You mention somewhere else that the lectures you watched were from 2008. That was probably at the height of the replication crisis. I'd suggest to look into more recent research, and/or to simply discard all this knowledge as bogus.
> Dr Bloom spoke about how your overall mood during college is a good predictor for how happy you'll be as a person throughout your life. He talked about the optimum time to get married is 26. He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
Some of this sounds more like ideology and less science, especially when deterministic tendencies are getting mixed up when talking about psychology.
> Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford
Also interesting that sensationalized statements always end up coming from places like that, exclusively pertaining to the rotten individualist lifestyle in the United States.
I have a hard time dismissing the teachings of field experts lecturing at the US's most prestigious higher education institutions as 'ideology'. Maybe it is easier for you through me as a conduit since I provide no evidence, studies, and am only a layman relaying conclusions
Thats my fault
Have these males exercised for about 2-3 hours per week? If no, and you do not have this consistency too, that's one thing that's relatively simple to add to your life, which will also increase your overall happiness. That alone probably adds another 5 years and pushes your healthy lifespan forward too.
> He elucidated the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25, making personality changes MUCH more difficult.
Psylocybin Mushrooms, 2.5g every three weeks. After 6 months I'm assure you that people around you won't think personality changes are difficult.
spending time in the bay area with some people who have done this to themselves has given me great reason to NOT do this ;)
Do none of those lectures mention interventions to affect those outcomes?
It may be that those things are all predictive on average, because most people don't take steps to change them.
>Everything I've learned from psychology (and by this I mean watching psychology lectures from Yale and Stanford on youtube and reading the associated textbooks) makes me confident that I will have a short and unhappy life.
By making this prediction you already run afoul of the findings in the article!
>At 35 I am starting to suspect that I may be on the spectrum
I mean, the ample parentheticals in your comment are proof enough :)
well shit ;)
> the idea of your prefrontal cortex solidifying around 25
...which is bunk; the studies that are cited as showing this actually showed changes in the prefrontal cortex up to the oldest people in their study, which was 25-year-olds.
Current research suggests that it continues changing throughout our lives.
is it? thats good to know - the lecture series I watched was recorded in 2008
Mine does not work that well, and I am in 30s. So, I keep hoping for better days. Maybe it's a biased take, but I feel like I have seen some better changes in my 30s and my 20s.
I suspect optimism is learned to some extent. Past experiences and outcomes shape your optimism, because it skews your bias.
People who had good things happen and got lucky get more optimistic as that's their experience.
If true, it might be that good genetics and environment gives you exceptional longevity, and also increases your chances of good outcomes at every step of your life which in turn make you an optimist.
Off course, I'd love to believe it's your mindset that affects outcomes, as it would give you control over your destiny, but it's precisely because that truth is so tempting that I'm extra skeptical of it.
This sounds like it should be true, but from life experience, I don't really think it is.
It would be rational for things to work that way, but personalities and emotions are not very rational.
There are some people who seem like they have everything in life going for them, and they're still pessimists, their narrative of the world is petty and ugly, or cruel.
Conversely, there are other people who have suffered tragedies that I might consider literally unbearable (i.e. suicide-worthy), and they are still optimists.
I think these are more fundamental personality traits. You can see it in siblings that grow up in essentially identical conditions, but one has a "sunny disposition" and another is anxious and worried.
Aye, I think this matches. I'm generally quite an optimistic and trusting person, and it's bitten me in the backside in a big way recently, but I don't think that's changed my outlook much. (Though, I think this is modulated by a lot of experience working in R+D where I feel like you need a healthy mix of optimism and pessimism/skepticism. Enough optimism to believe that you will figure it out in the end but enough pessimism that you don't see victory where it isn't or make promises you can't keep)
>People who had good things happen and got lucky get more optimistic
Well there's the old story about the lonely mountain blacksmith from hillbilly times who was hard at work one day, when the beautiful widow from the next mountain over came in and wanted him to fix her broken iron. You know, the kind they had before electricity. So he dropped everything and got right to working on it, and was proud to make it better than new in only about 15 minutes.
She was very thankful, gave him a big smile and then he asked her if it would be OK if he called on her real soon. The only thing is, he was a strong-hearted gentleman, but not very tall, less than 5 feet. And she was a statuesque beauty, just over 6 feet tall. But she was agreeable right away, and he said "How about a kiss good-bye right now?", she nodded and he jumped right up on top of his anvil, gave her a big hug and kiss and there was some excitement between them.
Looking straight into her eyes he then tells her she doesn't have to leave so soon, and they can go out in back and pick some fresh flowers on a wonderful spring day, to take home with her. The hard work can wait for a little while.
It is very romantic and they stroll around for a few minutes until they come to the spot where the roses are growing, then he asks her for another kiss. She was too bashful this time, and said that once was enough for their first meeting, but she was looking forward to having him visit. He said "I understand, but if there's not gonna be any more kissin', I think I'll put this anvil down."
I can’t speak for others, but this might be extra relevant to this forum — I experienced a shift and became more optimistic when I attempted a startup. Luck may play a part, and it might be a big part, I don’t want to downplay that possibility, since being in a position to do a startup requires some luck, being able to go to college and to write software for a living requires some luck, etc. But I had lucky things happen and still less optimism before running my own business.
My personal feeling is that the reason has to do with the mindset that comes from a combination of taking more responsibility for all of my failures (including the business failures, including result of things other people do) and of deciding that I have control over my situation in a broad sense. For example, I could find myself unlucky at any given moment, when I get cheated and lose money, have an accident, someone gets mad at me, or business goes down because of something in the news. All of these things used to make me feel unlucky, but I started to think instead that unlucky things are the result of a situation I put myself into from earlier past decisions. Whatever bad situation comes my way, my life decisions lead me there, so it’s somehow my fault. I started assuming responsibility for all bad luck, and that makes me always ask the question what earlier choices lead me there, and how can I make better choices, even when the answer is thinking about how to avoid unlucky situations that really were out of my control.
This might be one reason why successful founders and other optimists often attribute their success to hard work, but I should add that I do believe strongly that luck plays a very big part in success, and there are downsides to forgetting that or being unable to see it. I try not to take all responsibility for the good things that happen to me, even though that makes me inconsistent.
That said, one way that I think luck can feed optimism is realizing that because success is lucky, it means I should try a lot of different things rather that work harder and try to fix bad situations. If nine out of ten startups fail, then try ten startups!
So… yes my optimism is learned, and luck plays a part. My feeling is that deciding to take responsibility for my failures caused a mental shift towards greater optimism. Maybe that’s rationalization on my part, I can’t tell, but I do feel like it was more than luck.
Dissatisfying take: It's both true and untrue.
Your mindset absolutely has an influence on outcomes - how you come off to other people influences how they react to you and treat you. How you look at a problem influences whether you decide to engage with it, and how.
This exists in a gradient space - some things are more readily influenced in this way, others are not, a few are (nearly) completely untouched.
Existence, that is - the Universe, is a complex system. We know at least a few things about those:
- they behave in unintuitive ways. Attempting to predict the behavior of a complex system has an inverse relationship with the granularity and specificity of the prediction.
- the behavior of the whole is unrepresentable in the behavior of the constituent parts (you cannot drive an axle to work, unless it is part of a car)
- they are very resilient against attempts at control, but more susceptible to influence
- they can exhibit features like recursion, inertia, and attraction. Each of these has specific consequences for the behavior of the whole.
The relationship between outlook and outcome is bidirectional - one influences the other and vice versa. This structure has a high chance to exhibit recursive reinforcement, which is why I think we're used to seeing very optimistic and very pessimistic outlooks, with not so many 'middle-of-the-road' types. It does provide a lever to push, however, if one has the fortitude to push through the failures on the way to that tipping point.
I shouldn't be here, the first 20 years of my life were essentially every bad thing, defective body, I had my first birthday party at 30, dead parents, stolen and exploited childhood, moving all the time, constant mortality threat, surgery induced aphantasia, waking surgeries scenarios that spiral some adults into ptsd. Long term thwarted desires because I couldn't get health insurance without being a wage slave pre ACA. Co-founded my own succesful company the moment I could get ACA.
I have a brain and as my wife once told me in a moment of frustration.
"You're just happy to be here" and that is true. I didn't ask to be born and I've generally not enjoyed it, I'm only here because random luck geographically and temporarily allowed me to just squeak by surviving childhood and adolescents, I am a few years away from a cardiological surgery I could easily die in.
But, it's all so damn funny isn't it, what an odd thing to be alive, a little cluster of atoms arranged human wise. I hope I die not having achieved what I want to achieve, I hope, like sharks, I never keep moving.
Humans generate meaning, we are the known, empirically observed generators of the mosy complex meaning in existence and we still don't know and haven't created most stuff, it's early days yet. In the meantime, we're part of the entropic cycle, and we emit meaning the way stars emit photons.
People will say we aren't special, but we are, special and rare and should be preserved, dolphins, et all should be too, but let it be observed that it will be humans and not dolphins that deflect asteroids for the foreseeable future.
Many times when things got bad I thought I'd kill myself, I woke up from so many surgeries I started getting disappointed when I'd wake up, but I was too damn curious about what happens next, I can always end it tomorrow, nbd, I look forward to the perma nap, I'm an accident that shouldn't exist and I can exert casual leverage on the world with mere speech.
Who knows what the future holds, let's give dolphins thumbs, let's give silicon rockets to explore the universe, let's engineer long life so we can start worrying about solving entropy instead of whether or not a single spinning rocks "mid air collision" or 5 degree increase in temperature will cause total societal collapse and put an end to our weird little epicenter of meaning generation.
Maybe we solve entropy, maybe we figure out how to change the topology of spacetime, maybe we don't, it's too early to tell.
Optimism is just the headspace to try again, it's not emotional ignorance, it's not positivity, it's the curiosity to keep trying new experiments, and the humility to not be intellectually certain of despair.
I like your post, as it exhibits a sentiment I can relate to (though I have had a FAR smoother existence than what you've experienced, thus far, I think). I hope you have a rewarding future and I hope that luck is on your side with that upcoming risky surgery.
To me, optimism is a form of acceptance of whatever may come. I will deal with whatever comes my way, and in the meantime, I will expect and work towards "the best" outcomes. Assuming/expecting the worst just adds friction and stress to my consciousness which serves no practical purpose. Why experience the bad things before they even happen? I face stressful "could go either way" situations with the mentality that it will work out, but I am fully ready to deal with the situation going as badly as it could. I prepare mentally for the bad outcomes, but don't dwell on it like many people seem to. It's just not worth it. I figured this out as a kid and developed that way of thinking throughout my life, refining and reinforcing it over time.
I've now outlived a number of friends who I just assumed would always be there to talk to. They died totally unexpectedly, heart attacks and stuff like that. The journey could be over at any moment. I recognize and accept the temporality of everyone in my life including myself, and I actually use this acknowledgement to motivate myself to embrace the opportunity of life and not waste time on stupid bullshit, including thinking negatively or dwelling on fear-based lines of thought. It's like a basic judgment I apply to almost everything I think about, just passively, and it's a great filter to optimize for spending time on things that I think enrich my life (or future life) and that of those around me who I care about.
I think as we get older I see a convergence within my peer group, as we lose friends and family people either seem to orient on peace or bitterness.
Some of us just have the chance to emotionally appreciate and internalize the fragility of existence at an earlier stage.
Do we spend our days focusing on the lack of days and other things outside our control or do we schedule a day at the beach, build a tree house, learn how to cook a bolognese?
One option sounds very boring to me, might as well opt out of existence instead, it's not hard to do.
I enjoyed all of that. Thank you.
[dead]
If anyone wishes to use this study as a catalyst to shift one’s attitude, then I highly recommend dropping the dopaminergic doomloop apps like Reddit/Bluesky/X/tiktok/IG.
Your life will be better for it. Snapchat can stay…for reasons.
Instagram, for me, is mostly parkour and World Chase Tag clips. I don't love the way it's designed, but it isn't "doomy" (yet).
Social media like all addictions fulfill needs that you can't satisfy other ways in your current state. Mostly human contact and validation.
If you start getting out there and communicating with real people on intimate level - most addictions melt away by itself.
It makes more sense to focus on the root cause instead of fighting the symptoms.
I disagree. Looking inward at myself at outward at addicted friends and family it does not fill any need.
What it does is “hooks the attention” using outrage and a constant stream of dopamine hits.
“ If you start getting out there and communicating with real people on intimate level - most addictions melt away by itself.”
I highly suspect you are not an addiction specialist…
It can be both. The further away I get from social media and its singular narratives where it’s always “this ONE thing” form of causeality, the more I realize the mechanisms and causes can be multimodal and compound upon on another.
>I highly suspect you are not an addiction specialist…
Which also means they're not selling addiction help (which profits when addicts remain so), nor is indoctrinated to the professional fads of that racket
Since someone else vocally disagreed, I'll just back this up. If you change your social situation (new job, new friends, etc...) then a lot of other changes seem to be easier, in my experience.
Getting off those apps is a good first step towards getting out there and communicating with real people on an intimate level.
+1, I’m off the apps and it’s been so liberating.
Rage-engagement, something I never needed, and that I knew I needed out of my life, I just didn't know how much of a positive impact it would have to get off it. Sorry Zuck and Spez, but I know you'll be fine without a hatebuck or two.
Great idea. I believe this is often suggested for people suffering depression.
What are the reasons for Snapchat? :.
Ladies
If you're above 25 (if not 20), Snapchat should be the last place to search for ladies...
I(1992) keep it because my younger family members(Gen Z>) refuse to use anything else to communicate.
You have my condolences
Honestly above 18-
Does not compute
Based on my downvotes here, I'd say the reddit crowd and the HN crowd Venn diagrams overlap 99%.
> For men in NAS, higher baseline optimism levels were similarly related to longer life span (Table 1, NAS; P trend = 0.002). After adjusting for demographics, baseline health conditions, and depression, compared to the least optimistic men, those in the highest quintile had 10.9% (95% CI: 1.3%, 21.5%) longer life span.
Notably absent: control by wealth.
> For NAS, the demographics model includes baseline age, being white, being married, education, family income, and father’s occupation.
Not wealth specifically, but income is probably as good of a controlling factor.
Being part of the model is not the same as controlling for that variable, or is it?
They said "controlling for demographics", which seems to imply pretty strongly that income is a controlled for variable if it's part of the "demographics" model. To get a better answer, you'd probably have to dig for the raw data
It did control that in demographics.
> "For NAS, the demographics model includes baseline age, being white, being married, education, *family income*, and father’s occupation"
It makes sense to me, as the article also points out, being more optimistic might indicate lower levels of stress. And (prolonged) stress has been known for a long time to be detrimental to health.
My father is 84 and is among the most cantakerous people ever born. It's a sample size of 1, but he is a counter example since he's never had a single moment of optimism is his entire life!
This is not what the best study at hand has found based on the most extensive human study! Check out The Longevity Project [0][1]! Optimistic people don't pay much attention to symptoms!
[0]: https://www.longevity-project.com/
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Longevity_Project
Pessimists are going to read this and call BS
A truly committed pessimist would accept this dark omen.
Anyway, this definition of optimism
> or the belief that the future will be favorable because one can control important outcomes
Isn't what one colloquially means by it.
Though it is eye catching that it will make a positive impact even if you don't, actually, control important outcomes, like by not smoking
> These relations were independent of socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors (e.g., smoking, diet, and alcohol use). Overall, findings suggest optimism may be an important psychosocial resource for extending life span in older adults.
>A truly committed pessimist would accept this dark omen
Nah, that would be a fatalist
Surely there's some overlap?
Don't know many optimistic fatalists.
fatalist thinks whatever is to come will come and accepts whatever comes
pessimmist thinks the worse will come - and is grumpy about it
“It’s all going to be great, and you can’t change that no matter how hard you try.”
Exactly. Optimists are perpetually disappointed bitter people.
Pessimists look at anything good as an unexpected bonus.
All the good humorists are pessimists.
X -> Optimism, Optimism -> Longevity
Can't wait for a research which reveals the X.
X is a rich family. Hard to be an optimistic person if you struggle to afford to live.
So exceptional longevity causes optimism? That would make sense at least.
It might also be something like: people who experience relatively little psychological distress are optimistic, and also live longer.
We don't like to talk about it, but there is a biological component to how happy or anxious someone is. Not to say that everyone is doomed to be a certain way because of their genetics, but I've known people who are basically never sad, and it's not because they've found some kind of secret of happiness. I have a friend who has the temperament of a golden retriever.
Or less stressing about things and giving less fucks causes longevity.
Which makes even more sense, since stress affects all cause mortality and all kinds of outcomes, and even mere positive disposition towards a treatment is found to make a big difference in patients.
It wouldn't surprise me if healthy, privileged people with access to good healthcare are more optimistic than those with serious illness, no coverage and three shitty jobs.
Hard to be optimistic when you have cancer and can't afford treatment.
> These relations were independent of socioeconomic status, health conditions, depression, social integration, and health behaviors (e.g., smoking, diet, and alcohol use). Overall, findings suggest optimism may be an important psychosocial resource for extending life span in older adults.
Yeah I also feel introducing some social class - income level variable would help clear things up.
Well I'm screwed
Life is goooooood, man.
Who would have thought that less stress is good for your health.
Mire news at 10.
This seems like a rather obvious case of "correlation is not causation". Moreover, the vocabulary of optimism vs pessimism doesn't capture that one can work diligently to avoid pessimistic outcomes, so does that make one optimistic or pessimistic? After adjusting for the correlation, I suspect realists will have the highest longevity.
[dead]
Great, another thing to worry about.
Unfortunately, the people itll keep alive not the ones we would want; the same way capitalism seems to select for sociopathy.
Yep, immortal billioners is exactly what our society needs right now.
Gahd damn billioners