Yet another admission from Tim Cook that the only “value” he recognises is monetary. Despite all his wealth and power, he’s still too cowardly to take a stand even to protect the groups he’s a part of.
I would like him to not fold every time on every matter. I would like him to prove he believes in something. I would like him to stop using Martin Luther King’s words and pretend he lives by them.
I’m not disappointed in Tim Cook for this one specific thing, I’m disappointed for the repeated pattern of behaviour.
Imagine you are the CEO of Apple. The Chinese government tells you gay dating apps are no longer allowed in the App Store. How do you handle this situation?
Alright. Since when have I been CEO? Was I nominated today? Then I can definitely stall for a good while as I’m getting acquainted with everyone and the inner workings of the company, and come up with a plan.
Was I nominated a decade ago? Then Apple looks very different from today and I wouldn’t be in this situation because I wouldn’t have my supply chain almost entirely dependent on an authoritarian regime.
Again, the problem with Tim Cook is the pattern. Don’t narrow your mind to one specific case and shrug your shoulders as if there isn’t a choice, look at the big picture. This isn’t one isolated case, this is only one instance which came about from decades of decisions.
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Frankly by this point you seem to be deliberately engaging in bad faith, which doesn’t fit at all with what I remember from the character in your username (unless that is your real name). Steel man the argument, then we can talk.
Either way, there’s no point to engaging in your hypotheticals. Answering them won’t make any difference, they’re just a waste of everyone’s time.
Um, yes? Apple is a for-profit computer corporation. It signals various "values" when the RoI on doing so looks good, and doesn't when it doesn't.
Whatever their marketing might say about "we make sure that Santa only gets presents for nice little girls and boys", that is how pretty much every giant corporation on earth works.
Yes yes, “tHe CeO hAs A fIduCiARy ReSpOnSiBiLiTy To ShArEHoLdErS”. We’ve all heard that bootlicker’s credo which aims to excuse any asshole from their own humanity.
> It signals various "values" when the RoI on doing so looks good
Funny you mention that. Tim Cook famously shouted “screw the bloody ROI” at one point. Using the ROI as an excuse is not a good argument.
> Whatever their marketing might say (…), that is how pretty much every giant corporation on earth works.
That is not an excuse. Just because “everybody does it”, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when they do it. That criticism and actions against it do bear fruit on many occasions. The attitude of shrugging one’s shoulders is what lets the world sink further into shit.
> ... doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when ...
In one sense, you're free to criticize corporate exec's 24/7, for everything from their haircuts to how they tie their shoes. With no rhyme nor reason beyond "free speech".
But in another sense...complaining from the internet peanut gallery that the rich and powerful are running the real world according to Munger's Law ("Show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome"), instead of obeying your notions of propriety...that is not particularly insightful, entertaining, or useful.
Who said anything about “free speech”? That has nothing to do with the matter. Tim Cook is not part of the government and we don’t live in the same country, free speech has zero relevance here.
> complaining from the internet peanut gallery
You might have a point if that were the extent of what I did. But it’s not, so you don’t. Even so, peanut gallery or not, I’d take speaking one’s mind about what one perceives to be wrong over simply shrugging one’s shoulders. Or worse, actively discouraging the one’s trying to do anything about it even when agreeing with the goal.
We saw a lot of that over the last attempt to pass Chat Control. Several people on HN being against it but being actively lame and saying it wasn’t worth fighting it. And then the law didn’t go through (again), because the ones who actually do something decided to ignore the naysayers who did nothing but talk down everyone’s efforts.
> instead of obeying your notions of propriety
Not my notions, his stated notions. Tim Cook’s the one who keeps touting to live by Martin Luther King’s words of “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, ‘What are you doing for others?’”. He’s the one who came out publicly to “do his part to help others”. If Tim Cook wants to be a spineless stooge kowtowing to every bully, that’s his prerogative. But he shouldn’t pretend and hide his cowardice behind the words of someone who actually was brave enough to take a stand and face consequences.
(As a generality, "free speech" is a much shorter & stronger argument than "I am allowed to criticize Tim because [logic, more logic, therefore, yet more logic, QED]"-type stuff. Not that it matters much, in the current context.)
Your notions of propriety seem to involve lots of truth-telling, logical consistency, and courageously adhering to consequences of previous statements. (And smack-talking folks who don't follow those notions:)
Vs. 99.9% of real-world business and political leaders might freely say that they follow such lofty principals...but actually do otherwise whenever a cost/benefit optimization suggested less-lofty behavior.
In any case, "convince Tim Cook to defy the CCP" doesn't sound like a viable goal. If you're looking to improve things - maybe focus on pushing Tim to defy a relatively Elbonian gov't, or to ease back on the huge "SE => 16e" price increase for an entry-level iPhone?
> In any case, "convince Tim Cook to defy the CCP" doesn't sound like a viable goal.
I agree. Good thing that is not what I’m doing. I have no illusions it’ll happen.
> If you're looking to improve things - maybe focus on pushing Tim to
The only way to improve things at Apple is to get Tim out of the CEO position and hope the replacement is better.
> or to ease back on the huge "SE => 16e" price increase for an entry-level iPhone?
I’m not going to waste my efforts on fighting a price change for a phone, especially not one I don’t even use nor want. If you care about that, you fight for it. You have my support, I won’t stand in your way or endlessly try to convince you it’s not worth it.
Then maybe we should make sure that giant corporations, governments, and other monopolies of power can’t exist. Unfortunately we’ve let it get too far, so tearing down these institutions is going to be painful.
Yet another admission from Tim Cook that the only “value” he recognises is monetary. Despite all his wealth and power, he’s still too cowardly to take a stand even to protect the groups he’s a part of.
What would you like him to do? Pull all Apple products out of China completely?
I would like him to not fold every time on every matter. I would like him to prove he believes in something. I would like him to stop using Martin Luther King’s words and pretend he lives by them.
I’m not disappointed in Tim Cook for this one specific thing, I’m disappointed for the repeated pattern of behaviour.
What does not folding look like in this case.
Imagine you are the CEO of Apple. The Chinese government tells you gay dating apps are no longer allowed in the App Store. How do you handle this situation?
> Imagine you are the CEO of Apple.
Alright. Since when have I been CEO? Was I nominated today? Then I can definitely stall for a good while as I’m getting acquainted with everyone and the inner workings of the company, and come up with a plan.
Was I nominated a decade ago? Then Apple looks very different from today and I wouldn’t be in this situation because I wouldn’t have my supply chain almost entirely dependent on an authoritarian regime.
Again, the problem with Tim Cook is the pattern. Don’t narrow your mind to one specific case and shrug your shoulders as if there isn’t a choice, look at the big picture. This isn’t one isolated case, this is only one instance which came about from decades of decisions.
So you wouldn't operate in, do business with, or sell to China. Is that what you're trying to say?
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Frankly by this point you seem to be deliberately engaging in bad faith, which doesn’t fit at all with what I remember from the character in your username (unless that is your real name). Steel man the argument, then we can talk.
Either way, there’s no point to engaging in your hypotheticals. Answering them won’t make any difference, they’re just a waste of everyone’s time.
Um, yes? Apple is a for-profit computer corporation. It signals various "values" when the RoI on doing so looks good, and doesn't when it doesn't.
Whatever their marketing might say about "we make sure that Santa only gets presents for nice little girls and boys", that is how pretty much every giant corporation on earth works.
> Apple is a for-profit computer corporation.
Yes yes, “tHe CeO hAs A fIduCiARy ReSpOnSiBiLiTy To ShArEHoLdErS”. We’ve all heard that bootlicker’s credo which aims to excuse any asshole from their own humanity.
> It signals various "values" when the RoI on doing so looks good
Funny you mention that. Tim Cook famously shouted “screw the bloody ROI” at one point. Using the ROI as an excuse is not a good argument.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2014/03/07/why-tim...
> Whatever their marketing might say (…), that is how pretty much every giant corporation on earth works.
That is not an excuse. Just because “everybody does it”, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when they do it. That criticism and actions against it do bear fruit on many occasions. The attitude of shrugging one’s shoulders is what lets the world sink further into shit.
> ... doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when ...
In one sense, you're free to criticize corporate exec's 24/7, for everything from their haircuts to how they tie their shoes. With no rhyme nor reason beyond "free speech".
But in another sense...complaining from the internet peanut gallery that the rich and powerful are running the real world according to Munger's Law ("Show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome"), instead of obeying your notions of propriety...that is not particularly insightful, entertaining, or useful.
> With no rhyme nor reason beyond "free speech".
Who said anything about “free speech”? That has nothing to do with the matter. Tim Cook is not part of the government and we don’t live in the same country, free speech has zero relevance here.
> complaining from the internet peanut gallery
You might have a point if that were the extent of what I did. But it’s not, so you don’t. Even so, peanut gallery or not, I’d take speaking one’s mind about what one perceives to be wrong over simply shrugging one’s shoulders. Or worse, actively discouraging the one’s trying to do anything about it even when agreeing with the goal.
We saw a lot of that over the last attempt to pass Chat Control. Several people on HN being against it but being actively lame and saying it wasn’t worth fighting it. And then the law didn’t go through (again), because the ones who actually do something decided to ignore the naysayers who did nothing but talk down everyone’s efforts.
> instead of obeying your notions of propriety
Not my notions, his stated notions. Tim Cook’s the one who keeps touting to live by Martin Luther King’s words of “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, ‘What are you doing for others?’”. He’s the one who came out publicly to “do his part to help others”. If Tim Cook wants to be a spineless stooge kowtowing to every bully, that’s his prerogative. But he shouldn’t pretend and hide his cowardice behind the words of someone who actually was brave enough to take a stand and face consequences.
(As a generality, "free speech" is a much shorter & stronger argument than "I am allowed to criticize Tim because [logic, more logic, therefore, yet more logic, QED]"-type stuff. Not that it matters much, in the current context.)
Your notions of propriety seem to involve lots of truth-telling, logical consistency, and courageously adhering to consequences of previous statements. (And smack-talking folks who don't follow those notions:)
Vs. 99.9% of real-world business and political leaders might freely say that they follow such lofty principals...but actually do otherwise whenever a cost/benefit optimization suggested less-lofty behavior.
In any case, "convince Tim Cook to defy the CCP" doesn't sound like a viable goal. If you're looking to improve things - maybe focus on pushing Tim to defy a relatively Elbonian gov't, or to ease back on the huge "SE => 16e" price increase for an entry-level iPhone?
> In any case, "convince Tim Cook to defy the CCP" doesn't sound like a viable goal.
I agree. Good thing that is not what I’m doing. I have no illusions it’ll happen.
> If you're looking to improve things - maybe focus on pushing Tim to
The only way to improve things at Apple is to get Tim out of the CEO position and hope the replacement is better.
> or to ease back on the huge "SE => 16e" price increase for an entry-level iPhone?
I’m not going to waste my efforts on fighting a price change for a phone, especially not one I don’t even use nor want. If you care about that, you fight for it. You have my support, I won’t stand in your way or endlessly try to convince you it’s not worth it.
Then maybe we should make sure that giant corporations, governments, and other monopolies of power can’t exist. Unfortunately we’ve let it get too far, so tearing down these institutions is going to be painful.