Doesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote:
> Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one."
Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe.
That's an insane way of looking at it. One of the reasons I'll never be a CEO, I guess. "Why are they making money off of our broken shit, we should be making that money fixing our broken shit instead". Like, talk about perverse incentives. Seems like the kind of thing that should be regulated.
Yep, I'm sure that part of the reason luxury vehicles break so easily (considering their cost) and are so expensive to fix is that HQ is handing out revenue to dealerships in the form of repairs. I've had simple stuff break on a BMW that never failed on any of the cheaper cars I've owned. And it was hundreds or thousands of dollars to fix.
Windshield and brakes are normal service items though.
They're not talking about making money selling broken shit. They're talking about forcing you to give them a cut every time you do normal service things with the product (something they have much more fine grained control over).
They're angry that Jiffy Lube exists, not that autobody shops exist.
IDK about the European market but US OEMs don't really want to be in the business of fixing things. GM for example DGAF about dealer service departments. They're happy to sell replacement parts and make pennies doing it but they see themselves as being in the new cars and car financing business. When they sell shit that breaks they don't do it so you can pay to fix it. They'd much rather the dealer try to sell you a new car.
It's the mindset of being as lazy as possible to achieve the most reward. That is a useful mindset to have to some extent, but excessive laziness can be detrimental, even harmful to other people especially when companies are seeking to manipulate the economic and regulatory conditions without producing new wealth.
Economists have a term for this called "rent-seeking", and even endorsed by society at large at time, such as land speculation and NIMBYism.
Yep, and looking at this and every other mega-company...
Is that capitalism itself, once at the top, encourages and benefits neo-feudalism.
Feudalism itself is the creation of 'city states' where the lord has all the power over his subjects, and then does token nice things for them. Neo because it uses computers with DRM to enforce the real owner's wishes, instead of guards or servants.
Now we see all the biggies engaging in this techno-feudalism because people are trapped into ecosystems, or people did not understand what a "sale" really meant (it was IMHO, a fraudulent sale). And international laws thatcame out from the US's DMCA are a specific reason why this is even allowed to exist.
Competition is considered good by proponents if capitalism. But when you're on top, competition means to take you down a notch. So, erecting walls and feudalist digital-states is how you stay on top.
Laws are how we can start attacking these horrific structures. But at least for 3 more years in the USA, I'm not seeing it. Hell, we can't even hold fast with 'keep ACA benefits', let alone pro-human laws.
Hyundai has a pretty average or bad reliability reputation, especially with engines with a lot of problematic ones, and has only managed to be average since a few years.
I had a car with a Hyundai engine. We loved that car. Unfortunately, we did not love the engine. At only 90k miles, it started burning 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles.
I want to be clear that I know what I'm doing around cars and an meticulous with regular maintenance, so this wasn't caused by neglect.
Doing some research online, it turns out this happens to pretty much all of them at some point after the warranty is up. There is also a separate issue with these engines where they randomly grenade themselves which caused a class action lawsuit.
These issues are so common that you simply cannot buy a replacement engine from Hyundai, because there are no more left. There are remanufactured ones available, but they cost more than the car is likely worth, even before labor.
Anecdote but I've been super happy with my 2010 Santa Fe. It's at 135k miles and has had zero issues with the drivetrain. In fact literally the only problem with the car after 15 years is that one of the passenger doors no longer automatically locks.
I sometimes tell myself maybe I should buy an EV, but then realize I can drive this thing for another 50k miles, which I'll probably end up doing.
GM hos long had the same. Even in cases where GM has had toyota put a GM name on a car the GM is rated 3 stars and the Toyota name is rated 5. thus I put little weight on rattings
This. Current generation has failing ICCU's at staggering numbers. They replace them but haven't confirmed they fixed design issues. At least $2-3k.
Older ones (Kona) has reduction gear with some design flaw and Hyundai recommend changing its oil. Aaaaand it fails right at around 100k when most warranties lapse (cleverly their 8yr warranty is only for battery - likely most reliable component).
Bonus: just seen today Mercedes EQS has a motor seal design issue that at around 120kkm causes coolant intrusion. Tesla had same issue, but at least it was permanently fixable (aka coolant delete).
From my esperience, Hyundai has never been a reliable brand. Thankfully it seems these anti+ownership scams have been most common to brands who are unable to make worthwhile vehicles, At least for now.
Had a Kia (Hyundai's sister brand) towed recently. Tow truck driver knew right where it needed to go for service, I asked him if he tows Kias a lot, and his answer was "Just Hyundais and Kias all day". (Car is about five years old.)
Meanwhile, my Toyota is having its first major problem, it's age twelve, and I'm hoping to drive it until it's old enough to drive.
I think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
This definitely resonates, for all old cars designed to be maintained with simple tools and common parts.
That said, I have (lease) an Ionic 5 and it's the best freaking car I've ever driven by a mile. Some of the features on these things should have been on ICE cars a decade ago -- they're not unique to EVs -- but car companies thrive on product stagnation until someone raises the bar and they're forced to "me too".
> And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
Think you’ve got that backwards. Typically it is older cars that get stolen. 13 years old is new enough it should be harder to steal, but for joyriding or as a vehicle for doing other crimes the thieves are not looking for a new car.
you gonna pay for it either new or brand-new but they don't have that kinda nonsense.
my only gripe with toyota | lexus is they keep raising prices yet offering the same product year in year out cz they know people looking for a reliable car don't really have alternatives.
I said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine.
This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
You just make a tool that plugs into the wiring harness which does it for you. Then Jiffy Lube can sell it to all the Jiffy Lube franchises for $400. (It's really just a small 12 volt lithium battery and a switch lol.)
This isn't a new thing. A bunch of cars with electric parking brakes already have this service situation.
A lot of mechanics don't even look in software and probe them regardless because fuck getting out your scan tool, groping around in the footwell, plugging in, cycling through menus, trying not to get anything dirty in the process, etc, etc, all for something that can be done from the wheel well where the brake job is already being performed.
This has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system.
For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free.
Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
The first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, why did you need to disengage the parking brake? You can change a wheel with the brake on, in fact I don't think I've ever done it with the brake off?
The oldschool way of installing wheels is not hammering them down with a pneumatic impact wrench in 5 seconds and calling it a day, but rather tightening each screw slightly and incrementally in an X pattern while slowly rotating the wheel, so as to make it seat as centered as possible (a questionable point, the hub should center it regardless) and without unnecessary remaining stresses (a valid point), and only then tightening with the full recommended torque.
Most people doing the right thing use a torque limiter to "gun" the wheel on and then set final torque with the tires just touching the ground (for friction) which is totally adequate.
The thing people might forget is to clear the corrosion off of the wheel and hub which can be a problem if it breaks away as you drive.
I never saw a guy turn the wheel, it doesn't make sense. Wheel is mated to rotor, any misalignment of rotor to the rest of the assembly doesn't matter.
The rationale is that it kind of applies radial forces in varying directions when you rotate the wheel, and if there's any tiny slack between the hub and the wheel, helps make that slack 100% concentric while the wheel is still able to slide against the hub.
But honestly I do that simply for the peace of mind :) A soothing personal idiosyncrasy inherited from my dad.
You know, I have no idea. Maybe he was trying to hunt for the hole before deciding to swap it (they often do the rubber plug thing here for minor punctures)
A few years ago I used to help my father replace wheels in his car shop.
The lift was rather small and you couldn't get out of the car easily when you placed the car in the correct position for the lift's arms.
We placed the car about a meter from the correct position, got out, pushed it forward and placed the arms.
For this to work you need to make sure the parking brakes are not engaged.
No amount of Reddit-ish always-isms and rules of thumb will make lifting and lowering objects this heavy not fraught with hand mangling peril if one is stupid or careless.
Chocks, deflating a tire or two, parking against a tree or another car with a working parking brake, ratchet strap through the wheel spokes to something solid, etc, etc, where there's a will there's a way.
Part of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models.
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
Well pretty much any car before 2005 came with manuals and have large aftermarket support assuming it's not something mega niche. If you want control of the engine and you want to wire literally everything yourself check out speeduino and learn how an ICE works. I run my old Corvette with it.
Fyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login"
This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive.
If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
AFAIK most cars with electric parking breaks need to be set into a special maintenance mode either via OBD-2 or a special in-car procedure to be able to change the pads. Otherwise the breaks Pistons just push together and leave no room for the new pads. At least that is what my 2015 VW would do. But every shop around here has that Software or knowledge.
So Hyundai just upped the game and put some subscription into their service software. Definitely not a consumer friendly move, as changing pads and even disks is not that hard.
The cars are literally equipped with a computer and a touchscreen these days, there is no justification to mandate an external computer or diagnostic tool to be able to do basic service such as a change of brake pads.
Someone engaging this mode by error or stupidity, and then causing an accident makes me think some things should remain lock behind some "I know what I am doing" barrier, which the subject of the original link seem to not have scaled above, as there is a simple way to brute force the electronic break, no expensive tools needed.
It seems like this may be a good opportunity for someone interested in cars to make a site that evaluates especially EV vehicles for their various tricks and traps like this OP story to hold manufacturers’ feet to the fire, so things like subscription or unlock charges and DLC nonsense is not spread and normalized. I don’t want to give them any ideas, but I would prefer if we avoided things like having to buy blinker credits do you don’t end up pulled over off found at fault in an accident because you ran out of credits to use your blinker.
I for one would love to know if a manufacturer requires expensive hidden costs for services that amount to vendor lock-in. It seems like yet another industry moving into the scammy business model like airlines and hotels, where the prices they show you are never they price you pay.
Well, basically all car manufacturers have this kind of anti-consumer behavior. So you end up not being able to buy anything that's produced after 2000. Definitely not EVs where manufacturers put even more software locks like this. It is a terrible turn-off from what supposed to be better for our environment.
EV manufacturers are taking notes from computer and mobile phones industry where only authorized technicians can replace with the authentic/genuine <brand> parts
Automatic disengage when accelerating and automatic engage when parking means means one less thing to think about. Just get in the car, put in gear and go.
EVs also have very powerful motor braking that can get the car to a stop if the hydraulic brakes are busted.
On my peugeot 5008, pressing the electronic parkong brake button for more than cca 500ms while driving fully engages all brakes of the car (not only rear ones), but ABS remains functional. So in an emergency, one could theoretically still use this as an emergency brake. Although I agree that it's quite dumb, because it of course wouldn't work in case of computer/electric failure. What a shame indeed.
That sounds quite useless to me. I've never been in an emergency where I could afford a 500ms delay before engaging the brakes, and also had ample opportunity and presence of mind to keep my finger uninterrupted on a dashboard button.
Thats the same case with all brakes in use more or less. Also modern brakes have two hydraulic systems, in the case that one of the loops (front or rear) breaks there should be sufficient pressure to apply the brakes still.
Sometimes its front/rear and sometimes it is diagonal, but it should still do the emergency trick.
I have, they're tiny shoes and it'll lock up your rear wheels at best.
I would suggest that anybody reading NOT try this unless you have a quite large and empty lot with no public access. Pay close attention, they are not called Emergency Brakes, they are called Parking Brakes.
The stated purpose of these brakes are to ensure your car wont roll away while parked. Anybody with a manual transmission knows the ritual of shifting into 1 or Reverse and turning their wheels toward the curb while parked even while the parking brake is engaged.
They are smaller shoes. You could lock them up, but you could also modulate it (success depends on the type and user experience). Instead of a joke, here's some actual information.
It will if maintained properly. If you don't use it often it becomes loose and won't hold.
In my part of Europe it's the main issue for technical inspections, as most people drive automatic and we don't have hills, so we just put it in P when we park. The handbrake rarely gets used.
What cars is this the case in? All the cars I've ever driven have hydraulic-assisted brakes but can still be used without the assist in a pinch, if you really use your leg muscles. It seems REALLY dangerous to have no ability to manually actuate your brakes. If an ICE car like this with an electronic parking brake were to stall while going downhill, you'd be completely screwed.
They're not worried about a $20+installation cable that they can copy-paste from the last car.
An EV "needs" the electric actuator to replicate the park position in a conventional automatic transmission. The motor has no mechanical brake so the parking brake is automatically applied via software. Once you can do that why run the cable?
There's som minor addition value in sharing the system with ICE models that don't need it and programming them to cycle the system from time to time so that they don't rust up and stop working like cables are inclined to in automatic equipped cars.
In case of electronic/hydraulic failure when driving. If you want to replace the park position of a transmission, then they should do that with something that actually mimics that. You could use a sprocket and pawl on the motor output shaft.
I find it hard to believe that running an electric cable to motor/actuator and programming the computer to use it via a button is cheaper than running a cable attached to a lever.
I had not thought much about it until now, but when I did, I guessed it was a cost-cutting move, as it seems to piggyback on equipment needed for other features (principally ABS).
Now that you've mentioned it, I'm wondering if the auto manufacturers needed to get a bunch of regulators to drop secondary/emergency braking requirements in order to do this?
Corporations will do anything they can get away with. Without consumer-friendly regulation I don't really see why all corporations _wouldn't_ eventually do this type of thing in markets like this.
I am NOT a "consumer". Those just buy buy buy, the same way locusts devour everything.
I am a "customer". I think about purchases, research if its sufficient, and will actively walk away if the deal is garbage.
At this time, all electric cars seem to be a DRM ridden hellscape, and/or a surveillance platform on wheels, and/or 100% remote control by mothership, and/or subscription hellscape (heated seats, better battery).
I'll take my ICE mostly mechanical cars thankyouverymuch, as they are more repairable.
You’re still a consumer, though. A single locust doesn’t wipe out thousands of acres on its own — it’s the swarm of individuals all buying (eating) “only what they need”.
>At this point, after spending about
$2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai
Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer,
you still can’t.
This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term.
To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
They legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
Did you read the article? The only thing which stopped the replacement is a professional mechanic certification.
The law works exactly as designed. Independent shops have the ability to service these cars without any problems, even the hardware mentioned is not a problem, since it works with all cars following the standard.
I believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
Disabling and then reenabling the EPB is part of doing a rear brake job not some optional extra, very cheeky (IMHO) to charge extra for that. It's also possible to do it without a VAGCOM tool, but requires removing the EPB motor so the piston can be pushed back and then manually turning the motor to the disengaged position so that it can be refitted.
I’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator.
As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
This is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
BMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
I don’t know about other brands, but a BMW tracks the aging of the battery for features such as turning off accessories/lights to ensure you still have 2 or so cranks of energy left. This also seems to make the car stretch out the battery life almost to a fault. In the trunk, the positive terminal isn’t just a terminal, it has a current sensor built in so the car can measure not just voltage like most autos.
So the battery “registration” resets this adaptation, just like you’re supposed to reset the adaptation on a UPS when you change the batteries. Needing an OBD tool is slightly annoying, but does not feel like a vendor-locking scenario.
If the battery is in the trunk on a BMW automatic, park the car in a garage backwards with the car nearly touching the wall with the trunk. Stop it (parking brake engages). Wait for the battery to break beyond the point of recharging it by letting the car sit still for some months. Congratulations, you've successfully soft locked your car. You can't open the trunk, because you can't move the car forward, because you can't put the car in neutral and release the parking brake, because you have no power.
With brake on it's not uncommon for them to stick to the brake disk coz of rust + humidity, at best it will be PITA to get it moving again, at worst it will do some damage.
You need specific software that can cost thousands of dollars if obtained legally, but it's not really the bad part. Essentially anything on the CAN bus has to have it's cryptographic signature put on the ECU's whitelist of approved signatures, or it cannot be used. This can only be done with the blessing of BMW, who sells the privilege to 3rd party repair shops.
There are some hardware workarounds in some cases like spoofing auth with a 3rd party device permanently attached to the CANBUS, or desoldering and manipulating the chips used by the ECU for storage, but it's a massive hassle.
It’s not a simple OBD scanner. You need BMW software running on a laptop. The software is available online (not sure if it’s a reverse-engineered hack or pirated).
This is par for the course on traction batteries. You need official dealer software to dial them in.
My VW Passat hybrid did not even let me change the cooling fluid myself because it is also used to cool the battery. In fact anything remotely tied to the high voltage battery is not user serviceable, and dealers are only allowed to replace instead of repair.
And this car is from 2015 so the enshittification started there already.
Our BMW is 100% dinosaur-burning. Just a normal 12V starter battery. Still needs OBD programming to change, even if the type/capacity remains the same.
I’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer.
People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
Yeah, this is part of a larger pattern of car manufacturers being awful and it didn't start with EVs and if they were to magically vanish tomorrow it wouldn't end.
I actually would go further and say that that the existing choice to require that only some people can change lock codes is part of the problem here even though the reporter can't be expected to know that.
For hardware locks it was only practical to attempt physical access control. The only guy who can buy the weird blanks for this high end key with moving magnets inside it has a Locksmith business, so he's probably not going to also be a burglar, life is just too short. But for electronic locks we can just choose to design the software to allow the keyholder to change what they want and only require authorization when you do not have a key - so as to allow dealers to e.g. unlock a legitimately seized vehicle and give it to a new owner.
Without laws to force it it sadly won't happen. We need to put an "it's for ecology" veneer under rights to repair, surely government then will do something about it...
The standards are there and the interoperability works. The only thing which remains is that Hyundai is locking features for professionals only. None of this is EV specific by the way.
I love my EV, but I feel it's just old enough to not have much enshitification (2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV). The same car also came as ICE and hybrid, so it feels like a normal car, just with an electric motor. I just wish it had a better range, and more grip in snow (FWD with most weight from the batteries on the rear axle). I'll keep driving it until I absolutely have to replace it.
Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through.
They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers".
AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?).
VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well.
--
As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option.
People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules.
That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login.
If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer.
All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
My problem with the EPB is that it seems to encourage drivers to simply not use it. The convenience of a zero effort digital switch disconnects the user from the physical reality of the vehicle's heft.
I've had to instruct several family members and friends to engage their parking brake when on my very steep driveway. We had to shove a car up the hill to get it out of park one time. Leaving 2 tons of car resting entirely on the parking pawl can cause trouble. I always lecture drivers to let the brake take the load before putting transmission into park (or a low gear). It can be challenging to do this with digital everything.
Mine (Civic '19) applies it if your seatbelt is fastened when you turn off the motor. Otherwise it doesn't.
I think there's a "don't do automatic stuff unless the driver is wearing their seatbelt" rule.
Cables need replacement sometimes but I prefer the manual ones. It's really useful for turning in winter, it's fun and I trust it a lot more as an emergency brake. I've tried a Model 3 ebrake in motion once at 30-40 kmh and it locked up the rear instantly. Manual ones I can regulate so they don't lock or even let go a little if they do since they're not a button.
You should be able to make a mechanical parking brake as tight as you want, although I wouldn't put it past manufacturers to make the parking brake cable have fixed ends which would make tightening them impossible except by replacing the cable which will just stretch again after use, hence why they should be adjustable to start with.
The real magic/genius are trailer brakes, they are electric right, however if they worked the way you would naively assume an electric brake would work, directly operating on the friction surface with an electric solenoid, It would take a huge solenoid and the amperage requirements would quickly exceed what the trailer wiring can provide. so what they do is apply an electromagnet which starts to drag on the side of rotating wheel assembly it uses this drag to push the friction surfaces together, so it takes a surprisingly small magnet to run. most of the force comes from the rotating wheel.
What's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW.
[1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
Get a blindfold and throw a dart. You're talking about a +/-15yr range depending on the OEM and the product line in question.
Some random Suzuki on a platform that they're dearth to refresh and that primarily garners 3rd world sales is gonna grow "fuck you pay me" features a lot later than a 4Runner, or whatever else 200k+ households buy when they pop out a kid these days.
You need to do your research on a per model basis, generalizations won't help unless you're familiar enough with how that OEM does things to take an educated guess in which case you probably don't need the generalization in the first place.
Stuff like this makes me hope more and more that my 4Runner actually lasts forever.
Trying to read through several perspectives. Does Korea not value DIY repairs on cars? Is the world so litigious now that a carmaker would be sued for a poorly executed DIY fix?
If you have access to the wiring diagrams, I have seem people apply 12v to the correct pins to reverse the motor, moving the piston back from the rotor.
You needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it.
"Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled.
"
Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the car is based on a standard for maintenance tasks and that the sole reason why the maintenance could not be performed was because of a lack of certification as a professional mechanic.
Hyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens.
So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
Heavy dystopian vide here. How long will they go full out with in-vehicle transactions, like charging a small fee each time you use the brake, or roll down a window.
If I were a betting man I'd bet that the electrician/plumber/hvac lobbies will get their respective fixtures locked down (in a similar way to a lot of automotive stuff is currently) so you need to pay someone with a license to use them before we get microtransactions in vehicles.
As much as all these industries would love to make pennies here and there, they all loathe the idea that people can do things without giving them a cut even more.
The Ionic 5 N is not for "car-ignorant people". It's a high-performance car that has some pretty great reviews among professional reviewers. That doesn't mean it isn't impossible to repair by yourself, but I'd bet that most people who buy this vehicle are enthusiasts (it's quite a bit more expensive than the base, and the differentiation isn't aesthetic).
Doesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote:
> Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one."
Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-global-car-reckoning-is-here...
That's an insane way of looking at it. One of the reasons I'll never be a CEO, I guess. "Why are they making money off of our broken shit, we should be making that money fixing our broken shit instead". Like, talk about perverse incentives. Seems like the kind of thing that should be regulated.
Yep, I'm sure that part of the reason luxury vehicles break so easily (considering their cost) and are so expensive to fix is that HQ is handing out revenue to dealerships in the form of repairs. I've had simple stuff break on a BMW that never failed on any of the cheaper cars I've owned. And it was hundreds or thousands of dollars to fix.
Windshield and brakes are normal service items though.
They're not talking about making money selling broken shit. They're talking about forcing you to give them a cut every time you do normal service things with the product (something they have much more fine grained control over).
They're angry that Jiffy Lube exists, not that autobody shops exist.
IDK about the European market but US OEMs don't really want to be in the business of fixing things. GM for example DGAF about dealer service departments. They're happy to sell replacement parts and make pennies doing it but they see themselves as being in the new cars and car financing business. When they sell shit that breaks they don't do it so you can pay to fix it. They'd much rather the dealer try to sell you a new car.
It's the mindset of being as lazy as possible to achieve the most reward. That is a useful mindset to have to some extent, but excessive laziness can be detrimental, even harmful to other people especially when companies are seeking to manipulate the economic and regulatory conditions without producing new wealth.
Economists have a term for this called "rent-seeking", and even endorsed by society at large at time, such as land speculation and NIMBYism.
> That's an insane way of looking at it
This has close parallels to hyperscalers hosting open source software and the authors being salty about to the point of relicensing.
The amount of entitlement in that statement is almost impressive.
That’s generally the outcome in abusive relationships.
It takes years, decades of practice even.
Nah a lot of are just born psychopaths
Yep, and looking at this and every other mega-company...
Is that capitalism itself, once at the top, encourages and benefits neo-feudalism.
Feudalism itself is the creation of 'city states' where the lord has all the power over his subjects, and then does token nice things for them. Neo because it uses computers with DRM to enforce the real owner's wishes, instead of guards or servants.
Now we see all the biggies engaging in this techno-feudalism because people are trapped into ecosystems, or people did not understand what a "sale" really meant (it was IMHO, a fraudulent sale). And international laws thatcame out from the US's DMCA are a specific reason why this is even allowed to exist.
Competition is considered good by proponents if capitalism. But when you're on top, competition means to take you down a notch. So, erecting walls and feudalist digital-states is how you stay on top.
Laws are how we can start attacking these horrific structures. But at least for 3 more years in the USA, I'm not seeing it. Hell, we can't even hold fast with 'keep ACA benefits', let alone pro-human laws.
And thus one of the historically most reliable manufacturers is also enshittified? Damn.
Hyundai has a pretty average or bad reliability reputation, especially with engines with a lot of problematic ones, and has only managed to be average since a few years.
I had a car with a Hyundai engine. We loved that car. Unfortunately, we did not love the engine. At only 90k miles, it started burning 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles.
I want to be clear that I know what I'm doing around cars and an meticulous with regular maintenance, so this wasn't caused by neglect.
Doing some research online, it turns out this happens to pretty much all of them at some point after the warranty is up. There is also a separate issue with these engines where they randomly grenade themselves which caused a class action lawsuit.
These issues are so common that you simply cannot buy a replacement engine from Hyundai, because there are no more left. There are remanufactured ones available, but they cost more than the car is likely worth, even before labor.
All my cars are Honda or Toyota from now on.
Anecdote but I've been super happy with my 2010 Santa Fe. It's at 135k miles and has had zero issues with the drivetrain. In fact literally the only problem with the car after 15 years is that one of the passenger doors no longer automatically locks.
I sometimes tell myself maybe I should buy an EV, but then realize I can drive this thing for another 50k miles, which I'll probably end up doing.
In the US*
In the rest of the world, with Korean-produced vehicles, they do much better
GM hos long had the same. Even in cases where GM has had toyota put a GM name on a car the GM is rated 3 stars and the Toyota name is rated 5. thus I put little weight on rattings
Saw that with Pontiac Vibe (Toyota-made) reviews.
This. Current generation has failing ICCU's at staggering numbers. They replace them but haven't confirmed they fixed design issues. At least $2-3k.
Older ones (Kona) has reduction gear with some design flaw and Hyundai recommend changing its oil. Aaaaand it fails right at around 100k when most warranties lapse (cleverly their 8yr warranty is only for battery - likely most reliable component).
Bonus: just seen today Mercedes EQS has a motor seal design issue that at around 120kkm causes coolant intrusion. Tesla had same issue, but at least it was permanently fixable (aka coolant delete).
From my esperience, Hyundai has never been a reliable brand. Thankfully it seems these anti+ownership scams have been most common to brands who are unable to make worthwhile vehicles, At least for now.
Hyundai isn’t really reliable. Mechanic told me to sell before reaching 100k. Meanwhile, some Japanese cars can reach 500k with proper maintenance.
Had a Kia (Hyundai's sister brand) towed recently. Tow truck driver knew right where it needed to go for service, I asked him if he tows Kias a lot, and his answer was "Just Hyundais and Kias all day". (Car is about five years old.)
Meanwhile, my Toyota is having its first major problem, it's age twelve, and I'm hoping to drive it until it's old enough to drive.
I think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
This definitely resonates, for all old cars designed to be maintained with simple tools and common parts.
That said, I have (lease) an Ionic 5 and it's the best freaking car I've ever driven by a mile. Some of the features on these things should have been on ICE cars a decade ago -- they're not unique to EVs -- but car companies thrive on product stagnation until someone raises the bar and they're forced to "me too".
Latest full size Kia/Hyundai hybrid Tellurides added a lot of these features - namely remote/scheduled heating/cooling.
> And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
Think you’ve got that backwards. Typically it is older cars that get stolen. 13 years old is new enough it should be harder to steal, but for joyriding or as a vehicle for doing other crimes the thieves are not looking for a new car.
or buy a Toyota / Lexus.
you gonna pay for it either new or brand-new but they don't have that kinda nonsense.
my only gripe with toyota | lexus is they keep raising prices yet offering the same product year in year out cz they know people looking for a reliable car don't really have alternatives.
I said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine.
This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
Yep, I've used this method of just putting +12V on the connector pin several times when my Autel tool didn't support the car I was working on.
You just make a tool that plugs into the wiring harness which does it for you. Then Jiffy Lube can sell it to all the Jiffy Lube franchises for $400. (It's really just a small 12 volt lithium battery and a switch lol.)
sssssshhhhh or the next version gonna be CAN bus and with device serial paired to the car
This isn't a new thing. A bunch of cars with electric parking brakes already have this service situation.
A lot of mechanics don't even look in software and probe them regardless because fuck getting out your scan tool, groping around in the footwell, plugging in, cycling through menus, trying not to get anything dirty in the process, etc, etc, all for something that can be done from the wheel well where the brake job is already being performed.
This has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system.
For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free.
Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
Tesla was locked down for a long time. The service manuals were only made available in the beginning to people living in new hampshire (?)
I believe you have to own a car and log in to access all of this stuff.
The first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, why did you need to disengage the parking brake? You can change a wheel with the brake on, in fact I don't think I've ever done it with the brake off?
The oldschool way of installing wheels is not hammering them down with a pneumatic impact wrench in 5 seconds and calling it a day, but rather tightening each screw slightly and incrementally in an X pattern while slowly rotating the wheel, so as to make it seat as centered as possible (a questionable point, the hub should center it regardless) and without unnecessary remaining stresses (a valid point), and only then tightening with the full recommended torque.
I'm all for the careful oldschool way.
Most people doing the right thing use a torque limiter to "gun" the wheel on and then set final torque with the tires just touching the ground (for friction) which is totally adequate.
The thing people might forget is to clear the corrosion off of the wheel and hub which can be a problem if it breaks away as you drive.
I never saw a guy turn the wheel, it doesn't make sense. Wheel is mated to rotor, any misalignment of rotor to the rest of the assembly doesn't matter.
I do the incremental X pattern, but never thought to rotate the wheel while doing it.
The rationale is that it kind of applies radial forces in varying directions when you rotate the wheel, and if there's any tiny slack between the hub and the wheel, helps make that slack 100% concentric while the wheel is still able to slide against the hub.
But honestly I do that simply for the peace of mind :) A soothing personal idiosyncrasy inherited from my dad.
You know, I have no idea. Maybe he was trying to hunt for the hole before deciding to swap it (they often do the rubber plug thing here for minor punctures)
https://www.kiaevforums.com/threads/ps-747-maintaining-neutr...
For future reference.
How is it that the park brake needs to be disengaged to swap a wheel.
Genuinely curious, as that isn’t the case for any of my ICE vehicles.
A few years ago I used to help my father replace wheels in his car shop.
The lift was rather small and you couldn't get out of the car easily when you placed the car in the correct position for the lift's arms. We placed the car about a meter from the correct position, got out, pushed it forward and placed the arms.
For this to work you need to make sure the parking brakes are not engaged.
This isn’t an answer to the question I asked.
Yep, I was an idiot and replied to the wrong comment. Sorry for that.
[dead]
You do realize that jacking up a car on one side without the parking brake is quite dangerous because the car could just roll away?
Relying on only the parking brake like you describe is also dangerous. Put car in gear and/or use a wheel chock as well.
This was not on jacks, it's a small garage, but they raised the car on a proper lift
No amount of Reddit-ish always-isms and rules of thumb will make lifting and lowering objects this heavy not fraught with hand mangling peril if one is stupid or careless.
Chocks, deflating a tire or two, parking against a tree or another car with a working parking brake, ratchet strap through the wheel spokes to something solid, etc, etc, where there's a will there's a way.
given it was a mechanic garage they probably used a lift... or at least had some wheel chocks.
But yes, YT have plenty documentaries on that, together with "hydraulic jack is enough, I won't bother with jack stands"
Part of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models.
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that?
Mid-century domestics. You can buy almost all the parts of one from the aftermarket, as long as it has 8 cylinders and is RWD.
Well pretty much any car before 2005 came with manuals and have large aftermarket support assuming it's not something mega niche. If you want control of the engine and you want to wire literally everything yourself check out speeduino and learn how an ICE works. I run my old Corvette with it.
You rarely got servicr manuals for free, ever. DIYers could however buy 3rd party service manuals, for example those made by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_Manual
yeah but most of those that I wanted rusted away or cost new car price
Fyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login"
This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive.
If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
AFAIK most cars with electric parking breaks need to be set into a special maintenance mode either via OBD-2 or a special in-car procedure to be able to change the pads. Otherwise the breaks Pistons just push together and leave no room for the new pads. At least that is what my 2015 VW would do. But every shop around here has that Software or knowledge.
So Hyundai just upped the game and put some subscription into their service software. Definitely not a consumer friendly move, as changing pads and even disks is not that hard.
The cars are literally equipped with a computer and a touchscreen these days, there is no justification to mandate an external computer or diagnostic tool to be able to do basic service such as a change of brake pads.
Someone engaging this mode by error or stupidity, and then causing an accident makes me think some things should remain lock behind some "I know what I am doing" barrier, which the subject of the original link seem to not have scaled above, as there is a simple way to brute force the electronic break, no expensive tools needed.
A maintenance mode can be done without risk of activating it by mistake.
Then the different kind of maintenance can be split into sections with warnings about implications of each setting/action.
It seems like this may be a good opportunity for someone interested in cars to make a site that evaluates especially EV vehicles for their various tricks and traps like this OP story to hold manufacturers’ feet to the fire, so things like subscription or unlock charges and DLC nonsense is not spread and normalized. I don’t want to give them any ideas, but I would prefer if we avoided things like having to buy blinker credits do you don’t end up pulled over off found at fault in an accident because you ran out of credits to use your blinker.
I for one would love to know if a manufacturer requires expensive hidden costs for services that amount to vendor lock-in. It seems like yet another industry moving into the scammy business model like airlines and hotels, where the prices they show you are never they price you pay.
Well, basically all car manufacturers have this kind of anti-consumer behavior. So you end up not being able to buy anything that's produced after 2000. Definitely not EVs where manufacturers put even more software locks like this. It is a terrible turn-off from what supposed to be better for our environment.
EV manufacturers are taking notes from computer and mobile phones industry where only authorized technicians can replace with the authentic/genuine <brand> parts
Electronic parking brakes are so stupid. They offer no real value and eliminate the ability to safely use a secondary brake in an emergency.
Automatic disengage when accelerating and automatic engage when parking means means one less thing to think about. Just get in the car, put in gear and go.
EVs also have very powerful motor braking that can get the car to a stop if the hydraulic brakes are busted.
This. I don't think about parking brakes. Get into parking spot, open doors - car engages parking brake itself. It's nuts all cars don't do this yet.
On my peugeot 5008, pressing the electronic parkong brake button for more than cca 500ms while driving fully engages all brakes of the car (not only rear ones), but ABS remains functional. So in an emergency, one could theoretically still use this as an emergency brake. Although I agree that it's quite dumb, because it of course wouldn't work in case of computer/electric failure. What a shame indeed.
That sounds quite useless to me. I've never been in an emergency where I could afford a 500ms delay before engaging the brakes, and also had ample opportunity and presence of mind to keep my finger uninterrupted on a dashboard button.
It also wouldn't work if you lost hydraulics.
Thats the same case with all brakes in use more or less. Also modern brakes have two hydraulic systems, in the case that one of the loops (front or rear) breaks there should be sufficient pressure to apply the brakes still.
Sometimes its front/rear and sometimes it is diagonal, but it should still do the emergency trick.
Regular parking/emergency brakes use a cable instead of hydraulics.
They also don't really stop a moving car, its a parking brake.
Just wanted to add, a EPB used for emergency stop in his scenario is just using the regular stopping brakes, its not an emergency brake either.
"They also don't really stop a moving car, it's a parking brake."
This is false. Have you ever tried it? I can say from experience they will stop a moving car.
I have, they're tiny shoes and it'll lock up your rear wheels at best.
I would suggest that anybody reading NOT try this unless you have a quite large and empty lot with no public access. Pay close attention, they are not called Emergency Brakes, they are called Parking Brakes.
The stated purpose of these brakes are to ensure your car wont roll away while parked. Anybody with a manual transmission knows the ritual of shifting into 1 or Reverse and turning their wheels toward the curb while parked even while the parking brake is engaged.
They won't serve you in an emergency. Here's Mitch Hedberg on "Emergency brake": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMKV1B0vuI8
They are smaller shoes. You could lock them up, but you could also modulate it (success depends on the type and user experience). Instead of a joke, here's some actual information.
https://www.nationwide.com/lc/resources/auto-insurance/artic...
It will if maintained properly. If you don't use it often it becomes loose and won't hold.
In my part of Europe it's the main issue for technical inspections, as most people drive automatic and we don't have hills, so we just put it in P when we park. The handbrake rarely gets used.
What cars is this the case in? All the cars I've ever driven have hydraulic-assisted brakes but can still be used without the assist in a pinch, if you really use your leg muscles. It seems REALLY dangerous to have no ability to manually actuate your brakes. If an ICE car like this with an electronic parking brake were to stall while going downhill, you'd be completely screwed.
Hydraulic brakes also have a bit of redundency built in so you can still hopefully stop in the event of a mechanical failure like a line bursting.
At least computers are redundant and far likely less to fail.
The value is not having to put mechanical linkage all the way to the back.
I'd think if it would be cheaper to leave it manual they would.
But I'm appalled at more and more choices that make cars more error-prone in emergency.
I'd never want brake by wire car. Even if the mechanical reliability would be the same, one coding error and brakes are gone
They're not worried about a $20+installation cable that they can copy-paste from the last car.
An EV "needs" the electric actuator to replicate the park position in a conventional automatic transmission. The motor has no mechanical brake so the parking brake is automatically applied via software. Once you can do that why run the cable?
There's som minor addition value in sharing the system with ICE models that don't need it and programming them to cycle the system from time to time so that they don't rust up and stop working like cables are inclined to in automatic equipped cars.
An EV "needs" the electric actuator to replicate the park position in a conventional automatic transmission.
Noteworthy fact: most early automatic transmissions had no park position. Like a manual, you put them in neutral and set the parking brake instead.
"Once you can do that why run the cable?"
In case of electronic/hydraulic failure when driving. If you want to replace the park position of a transmission, then they should do that with something that actually mimics that. You could use a sprocket and pawl on the motor output shaft.
Some EVs, not all. My Lightning has a parking pawl.
I find it hard to believe that running an electric cable to motor/actuator and programming the computer to use it via a button is cheaper than running a cable attached to a lever.
Cables do stretch and rust
And motors/actuators wear out and can rust too. A cable is still much cheaper.
> I'd never want brake by wire car.
I'm willing to bet in just 5 years fully break-by-wire systems (aka no hydraulics) will be 2x more reliable.
I had not thought much about it until now, but when I did, I guessed it was a cost-cutting move, as it seems to piggyback on equipment needed for other features (principally ABS).
Now that you've mentioned it, I'm wondering if the auto manufacturers needed to get a bunch of regulators to drop secondary/emergency braking requirements in order to do this?
My guess is they implemented whoever they felt like and the regulations only require a "parking" brake, but don't talk about implementation.
Not to mention the cool handbrake turn when you're a teenager.
As I once heard: when the lever pops, the panties drop.
Not my classiest comment, but I figured someone would get a chuckle from it.
What other mechanism would you use to park an EV then??
The same sort of mechanism that transmissions use today - a sprocket and pawl or similar somewhere between the motor and wheels.
So now you're building a transmission just to park? Seems like you're not sure how that actually works.
Adding a sprocket to a rotating shaft is not the same as adding a transmission.
Corporations will do anything they can get away with. Without consumer-friendly regulation I don't really see why all corporations _wouldn't_ eventually do this type of thing in markets like this.
I am NOT a "consumer". Those just buy buy buy, the same way locusts devour everything.
I am a "customer". I think about purchases, research if its sufficient, and will actively walk away if the deal is garbage.
At this time, all electric cars seem to be a DRM ridden hellscape, and/or a surveillance platform on wheels, and/or 100% remote control by mothership, and/or subscription hellscape (heated seats, better battery).
I'll take my ICE mostly mechanical cars thankyouverymuch, as they are more repairable.
You’re still a consumer, though. A single locust doesn’t wipe out thousands of acres on its own — it’s the swarm of individuals all buying (eating) “only what they need”.
"No u" isn't a valid argument here.
I'm following the body of capitalist thought, as you can see here:
https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/consu...
They are demonstrably very different. And from a 10000 foot view, consumers are reactionary and impulsive and easier to control.
Customers are the ones who give thought in how they purchase.
Okay, semantics aside, companies will not make things more repairable if they aren't required to do so.
What's your point?
>At this point, after spending about $2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer, you still can’t.
This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term.
To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
They legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
Did you read the article? The only thing which stopped the replacement is a professional mechanic certification.
The law works exactly as designed. Independent shops have the ability to service these cars without any problems, even the hardware mentioned is not a problem, since it works with all cars following the standard.
I believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
Disabling and then reenabling the EPB is part of doing a rear brake job not some optional extra, very cheeky (IMHO) to charge extra for that. It's also possible to do it without a VAGCOM tool, but requires removing the EPB motor so the piston can be pushed back and then manually turning the motor to the disengaged position so that it can be refitted.
I’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator.
As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
It's gotten easier, frankly, nowadays, because 95% of the time there's a YouTube video to walk you through.
My 16-year-old did a complete front brake service that way. The only thing I had to help with was pumping the brakes for the bleed.
This is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
BMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
I don’t know about other brands, but a BMW tracks the aging of the battery for features such as turning off accessories/lights to ensure you still have 2 or so cranks of energy left. This also seems to make the car stretch out the battery life almost to a fault. In the trunk, the positive terminal isn’t just a terminal, it has a current sensor built in so the car can measure not just voltage like most autos.
So the battery “registration” resets this adaptation, just like you’re supposed to reset the adaptation on a UPS when you change the batteries. Needing an OBD tool is slightly annoying, but does not feel like a vendor-locking scenario.
If the battery is in the trunk on a BMW automatic, park the car in a garage backwards with the car nearly touching the wall with the trunk. Stop it (parking brake engages). Wait for the battery to break beyond the point of recharging it by letting the car sit still for some months. Congratulations, you've successfully soft locked your car. You can't open the trunk, because you can't move the car forward, because you can't put the car in neutral and release the parking brake, because you have no power.
There’s a jump-start point in the engine bay.
Or leave it outside in humid weather.
With brake on it's not uncommon for them to stick to the brake disk coz of rust + humidity, at best it will be PITA to get it moving again, at worst it will do some damage.
You can go under the car and put the transmission in neutral.
Also, BMW puts the battery in the trunk for a reason. It's for weight distribution. So I'll le them get away with it.
Requiring an OBD2 programmer seems totally fine to me, just as requiring a 10mm socket and wrench is.
Snap-On is known for nice, warrantied-for-life, but incredibly expensive tools. A 10mm socket is $40, a 10mm wrench is $58.
The cheapest OBD-II reader one can use with the Hyundai, per TFA, is ~$800, and Hyundai's required-for-this-job software subscription is $60/week.
Needing tools is fine, but the cost is ballooning, and the ladder for starting work at home, and learning, is being pulled up.
Sure, one needs tools
You need specific software that can cost thousands of dollars if obtained legally, but it's not really the bad part. Essentially anything on the CAN bus has to have it's cryptographic signature put on the ECU's whitelist of approved signatures, or it cannot be used. This can only be done with the blessing of BMW, who sells the privilege to 3rd party repair shops.
There are some hardware workarounds in some cases like spoofing auth with a 3rd party device permanently attached to the CANBUS, or desoldering and manipulating the chips used by the ECU for storage, but it's a massive hassle.
It’s not a simple OBD scanner. You need BMW software running on a laptop. The software is available online (not sure if it’s a reverse-engineered hack or pirated).
This is par for the course on traction batteries. You need official dealer software to dial them in.
My VW Passat hybrid did not even let me change the cooling fluid myself because it is also used to cool the battery. In fact anything remotely tied to the high voltage battery is not user serviceable, and dealers are only allowed to replace instead of repair.
And this car is from 2015 so the enshittification started there already.
Our BMW is 100% dinosaur-burning. Just a normal 12V starter battery. Still needs OBD programming to change, even if the type/capacity remains the same.
It seems that it tells the charge controller to reset the battery history?
I would want to see a bit of data before concluding that it is useless to do that.
Yes. Apparently ramps charge rates based on battery age. Which is fine and good, but shouldn’t require BMW software to do.
I think for AGM batteries, it uses different charging curves depending on the age/health of the battery.
I’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer.
People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
The car in this example is electric but the problem is not confined to electric cars.
Yeah, this is part of a larger pattern of car manufacturers being awful and it didn't start with EVs and if they were to magically vanish tomorrow it wouldn't end.
I actually would go further and say that that the existing choice to require that only some people can change lock codes is part of the problem here even though the reporter can't be expected to know that.
For hardware locks it was only practical to attempt physical access control. The only guy who can buy the weird blanks for this high end key with moving magnets inside it has a Locksmith business, so he's probably not going to also be a burglar, life is just too short. But for electronic locks we can just choose to design the software to allow the keyholder to change what they want and only require authorization when you do not have a key - so as to allow dealers to e.g. unlock a legitimately seized vehicle and give it to a new owner.
It's more about Hyundai than about EVs.
There are no commercially available EVs with mechanical parking brakes, so it's not a Hyundai problem.
Without laws to force it it sadly won't happen. We need to put an "it's for ecology" veneer under rights to repair, surely government then will do something about it...
Plenty of vehicles will have a simple procedure for disabling automatic engagement of the brake.
Unfortunately, most people don't care about this stuff, so the companies that don't do it don't really pay a penalty.
Did you read the article?
The standards are there and the interoperability works. The only thing which remains is that Hyundai is locking features for professionals only. None of this is EV specific by the way.
I love my EV, but I feel it's just old enough to not have much enshitification (2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV). The same car also came as ICE and hybrid, so it feels like a normal car, just with an electric motor. I just wish it had a better range, and more grip in snow (FWD with most weight from the batteries on the rear axle). I'll keep driving it until I absolutely have to replace it.
This "secure gateway" shit is already tiring.
Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through.
They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers".
AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?).
VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well.
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As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option.
People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules.
That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login.
If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer.
All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
"...satisfying handle..."
I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
My problem with the EPB is that it seems to encourage drivers to simply not use it. The convenience of a zero effort digital switch disconnects the user from the physical reality of the vehicle's heft.
I've had to instruct several family members and friends to engage their parking brake when on my very steep driveway. We had to shove a car up the hill to get it out of park one time. Leaving 2 tons of car resting entirely on the parking pawl can cause trouble. I always lecture drivers to let the brake take the load before putting transmission into park (or a low gear). It can be challenging to do this with digital everything.
Don't EPBs get applied automatically? I have a 2020 car, if I turn off the engine it goes to Park and engages the EPB.
My 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV doesn't do this. It's a separate button.
Not on our ’21 Honda
Mine (Civic '19) applies it if your seatbelt is fastened when you turn off the motor. Otherwise it doesn't. I think there's a "don't do automatic stuff unless the driver is wearing their seatbelt" rule.
Cables need replacement sometimes but I prefer the manual ones. It's really useful for turning in winter, it's fun and I trust it a lot more as an emergency brake. I've tried a Model 3 ebrake in motion once at 30-40 kmh and it locked up the rear instantly. Manual ones I can regulate so they don't lock or even let go a little if they do since they're not a button.
too soft, no matter the maintenance
That sounds like they weren't adjusted correctly.
You should be able to make a mechanical parking brake as tight as you want, although I wouldn't put it past manufacturers to make the parking brake cable have fixed ends which would make tightening them impossible except by replacing the cable which will just stretch again after use, hence why they should be adjustable to start with.
You might just need to adjust the brakes in the back. Usually there is an equalizer with a nut you can tighten for it to lock the rear better.
I don't need to. I pay others. EPB: no such issue. Period.
And manual parking brakes aren't really wonders of mechanical simplicity anyway
The real magic/genius are trailer brakes, they are electric right, however if they worked the way you would naively assume an electric brake would work, directly operating on the friction surface with an electric solenoid, It would take a huge solenoid and the amperage requirements would quickly exceed what the trailer wiring can provide. so what they do is apply an electromagnet which starts to drag on the side of rotating wheel assembly it uses this drag to push the friction surfaces together, so it takes a surprisingly small magnet to run. most of the force comes from the rotating wheel.
That's the "self-applying" property of drum brakes. Not specific to trailer brakes.
They're actually really simple? Two wedge-shaped brake shoes that cam into the inner diameter of the wheel.
More not easy to servicd if they seized and you can disassemble half the car to get to all the cables and so on
You can almost always pop the cable (if you have to) and hit the rotor with a hammer, or use a puller.
If that doesn't work you hit it with a hammer from the other side until the parking brake shoes pop out of the pins and come off with the rotor.
My 2010 VW also needs a VCDS license to do this?
What's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW.
[1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
Get a blindfold and throw a dart. You're talking about a +/-15yr range depending on the OEM and the product line in question.
Some random Suzuki on a platform that they're dearth to refresh and that primarily garners 3rd world sales is gonna grow "fuck you pay me" features a lot later than a 4Runner, or whatever else 200k+ households buy when they pop out a kid these days.
You need to do your research on a per model basis, generalizations won't help unless you're familiar enough with how that OEM does things to take an educated guess in which case you probably don't need the generalization in the first place.
Stuff like this makes me hope more and more that my 4Runner actually lasts forever.
Trying to read through several perspectives. Does Korea not value DIY repairs on cars? Is the world so litigious now that a carmaker would be sued for a poorly executed DIY fix?
It's possible to do this without disabling the brake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxYdB-LBB0&t=220s
If you have access to the wiring diagrams, I have seem people apply 12v to the correct pins to reverse the motor, moving the piston back from the rotor.
You don't need a diagram when confronted with a necessarily reversible motor and a 2-pin connector....
Some have position sensors built in (so the computer knows where things are). But yes - if you only have 2 pins it's self-explanatory.
You needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it.
> https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s6-c6-platform-discussio...
"Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled. "
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45893991
Seems like a time for some regulations about what levels of repairability and interoperability products must have.
Did you read the article? It specifically mentions that the car is based on a standard for maintenance tasks and that the sole reason why the maintenance could not be performed was because of a lack of certification as a professional mechanic.
I did. And there are roadblocks to repairability put by manufacturer.
Unplug the actuator and power it directly to release the brake? Or is the interface to it also somehow DRM'd?
RIP hyundai, you're dead to me
Hyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens.
So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
The president of the company's quote here doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45943646
Just head of their Europe division
Heavy dystopian vide here. How long will they go full out with in-vehicle transactions, like charging a small fee each time you use the brake, or roll down a window.
If I were a betting man I'd bet that the electrician/plumber/hvac lobbies will get their respective fixtures locked down (in a similar way to a lot of automotive stuff is currently) so you need to pay someone with a license to use them before we get microtransactions in vehicles.
As much as all these industries would love to make pennies here and there, they all loathe the idea that people can do things without giving them a cut even more.
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The Ionic 5 N is not for "car-ignorant people". It's a high-performance car that has some pretty great reviews among professional reviewers. That doesn't mean it isn't impossible to repair by yourself, but I'd bet that most people who buy this vehicle are enthusiasts (it's quite a bit more expensive than the base, and the differentiation isn't aesthetic).
> Hyundai is a complete joke.
4th largest vehicle manufacturer in the world by sales volume[1]. Are you telling us you're in charge of one of the top three?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufac...
Absolute nonsense.
I'd take the ioniq 5 (preferably N model) over anything any other car manufacturer is making right now (excluding China).
You do that, I take the Renault R5 Turbo 3e.
Didn't even know that existed. Pretty bad ass.
I'll take the 5N though with a price for us mere mortals.
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