- SSL/TLS: You will likely lose your Cloudflare-provided SSL certificate. Your site will only work if your origin server has its own valid certificate.
- Security & Performance: You will lose the performance benefits (caching, minification, global edge network) and security protections (DDoS mitigation, WAF) that Cloudflare provides.
- This will also reveal your backend internal IP addresses. Anyone can find permanent logs of public IP addresses used by even obscure domain names, so potential adversaries don't necessarily have to be paying attention at the exact right time to find it.
If anyone needs the internet to work again (or to get into your cf dashboard to generate API keys), if you have Cloudflare WARP installed, turning it on appears to fix otherwise broken sites. Maybe using 1.1.1.1 does too, but flipping the radio box was faster. Some parts of sites are still down, even after tunneling into to CF.
Its absurdly slow (like multiple minutes to get the login page to fully load for the login button to be pressable, due to catchpa...), but I was able to log into the dashboard. It's throwing lots of errors once inside, but I can navigate around some of it. YMMV.
My profile (including api tokens,) and websites pages all work, the accounts tab above website on the left does not.
A colleague of mine just came bursting through my office door in a panic, thinking he brought our site down since this happened just as he made some changes to our Cloudflare config. He was pretty relieved to see this post.
You joke and I think its funny, but as a junior engineer I would be quite proud if some small change I made was able to take down the mighty Cloudflare.
If I were Cloudflare it would mean an immediate job offer well above market. That junior engineer is either a genius or so lucky that they must be bred by Pierson’s Puppeteers or such a perfect manifestation of a human fuzzer that their skills must be utilized.
This reminds of a friend I had in college. We were assigned to the same group coding an advanced calculator in C. This guy didn't know anything about programming (he was mostly focused on his side biz of selling collector sneakers), so we assigned him to do all the testing, his job was to come up with weird equations and weird but valid way to present them to the calculator. And this dude somehow managed to crash almost all of our iterations except the few last ones. Really put the joke about a programmer, a tester, and a customer walk into a bar into perspective.
I love that he ended up making a very valuable contribution despite not knowing how to program -- other groups would have just been mad at him, had him do nothing, or had him do programming and gotten mad when it was crap or not finished.
I think the rate limits for Claude Code on the Web include VM time in general and not just LLM tokens. I have a desktop app with a full end to end testing suite which the agent would run for every session that probably burned up quite a bit.
> If I were Cloudflare it would mean an immediate job offer well above market.
And not a lawsuit? Cause I've read more about that kind of reaction than of job offers. Though I guess lawsuits are more likely to be controversial and talked about.
I kind of did that back in the days when they released Worker KV, I tried to bulk upload a lot of data and it brought the whole service down, can confirm I was proud :D
It's also not exactly the least common way that this sort of huge multi-tenant service goes down. It's only as rare as it is because more or less all of them have had such outages in the past and built generic defenses (e.g. automated testing of customer changes, gradual rollout, automatic rollback, there are others but those are the ones that don't require any further explanation).
Well its easy to cause damage by messing up the `rm` command, esp with `-fr` options. So don't take it as a proxy for some great skill which is required to cause damage.
You could easily cause great damage to your Cloudflare setup, but CF has measures to prevent random customers deleting stuff from taking down the entire service globally. Unless you have admin access to the entire CF system, you can't really cause much damage with rm.
>You joke and I think its funny, but as a junior engineer I would be quite proud if some small change I made was able to take down the mighty Cloudflare.
I mean, with Cloudflare's recent (lack of) uptime, I would argue there's a degree of crashflation happening such that the prestige is less in doing so. I mean nowadays if a lawnmower drives by cloudflare and backfires that's enough to collapse the whole damn thing
Are you actually so mind-numbingly ignorant that you think Rebecca Heineman had a brother named Bill, that you would rudely and incorrectly try to correct people who knew her story well, during a memorial discussion of her life and death?
Or were you purposefully going out of your way to perpetrate performative ignorance and transphobic bullying, just to let everyone know that you're a bigoted transphobic asshole?
I don't buy that it was an innocent mistake, given the context of the rest of the discussion, and your pretending to know her family better than the poster you were replying to and everyone else in the discussion, falsely denying her credit for her own work. Do you really think dang made the Hacker News header black because he and everyone else was confused and you were right?
Do you like to show up at funerals of people you don't know, just to interrupt the eulogy with insults, stuff pennies up your ass (as you claim to do), then shit and piss all over the coffin in front of their family and friends?
How long did you have to wait until she died before you had the courage to deadname, misgender, and punch down at her in a memorial, out of hate and cowardice and a perverse desire to show everyone what kind of a person you really are?
Next time, can you at least wait until after the funeral before committing your public abuse?
Posting abusive bigoted bullshit in a memorial thread is cuckoo crazy behavior. Calling it out and describing it isn't. You're confusing describing the abuse with committing the abuse. Direct your scorn at the person I'm criticizing, unless you agree with what they did, in which case my criticism also applies directly and personally to you, so no wonder you created a throw away sock puppet account just to attempt to defend your own bigotry and abuse.
It's also what was the cause of the Azure Front Doors global outage two weeks ago - https://aka.ms/air/YKYN-BWZ
"A specific sequence of customer configuration changes, performed across two different control plane build versions, resulted in incompatible customer configuration metadata being generated. These customer configuration changes themselves were valid and non-malicious – however they produced metadata that, when deployed to edge site servers, exposed a latent bug in the data plane. This incompatibility triggered a crash during asynchronous processing within the data plane service. This defect escaped detection due to a gap in our pre-production validation, since not all features are validated across different control plane build versions."
> May 12, we began a software deployment that introduced a bug that could be triggered by a specific customer configuration under specific circumstances.
I'd love to know more about what those specific circumstances were!
I'm pretty sure I crashed Gmail using something weird in its filters. It was a few years ago. Every time I did something specific (I don't remember what), it would freeze and then display a 502 error for a while.
What do you imagine would be the result if you brought down cloudflare with a legitimate config update (ie not specifically crafted to trigger known bugs) while not even working for them? If I were the customer "responsible" for this outage, I'd just be annoyed that their software is apparently so fragile.
I would be fine if it was my "fault", but I'm sure people in business would find a way to make me suffer.
But on a personal level, this is like ordering something at a restaurant and the cook burning the kitchen because they forgot to take out your pizza out of the oven or something.
I would be telling it to everyone over beers (but not my boss).
What’s funny is as I get older this feeling of relief turns more like a feeling of dread. The nice thing about problems that you cause is that you have considerable autonomy to fix them. Cloudflare goes down you’re sitting and waiting for a 3 party to fix something.
Can’t speak for GP but ultimately I’d rather it be my fault or my company’s fault so I have something I can directly do for my customers who can’t use our software. The sense of dread isn’t about failure but feeling empathy for others who might not make payroll on time or whatever because my service that they rely on is down. And the second order effects, like some employee of a customer being unable to make rent or be forced to take out a short term loan or whatever. The fallout from something like this can have an unexpected human cost at times. Thankfully it’s Tuesday, not a critical payroll day for most employees.
But why does this case specifically matter? What if their system was down due to their WiFi or other layers beyond your software? Would you feel the same as well?
What about all the other systems and people suffering elsewhere in the World?
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that if I can't feel empathy for everybody at once, or in every one of their circumstances, that I should not feel anything at all for anyone? That's not how anything works. Life (or, as I believe, God) brings us into contact with all kinds of people experiencing different levels of joy and pain. It's natural to empathize with the people you're around, whatever they're feeling. Don't over-complicate it.
So you would rather be incompetent than powerless? Choice of third party vendor on client facing services is still on you, so maybe you prefer your incompetence be more direct and tangible?
Even still, you should have policies in place to mitigate such eventualities, that way you can focus the incompetence into systematic issues instead. The larger the company, the less acceptable these failures become. Lessons learned is a better excuse for a shake and break startup than an established player that can pay to be secure.
At some point, the finger has to be pointed. Personally, I don't dread it pointing elsewhere. Just means I've done my due D and C.
If customers expected third party downtime to not affect their thing then you shouldn't have picked a third party provider or spent extra resources on not having a single point of failure? If they were happy with choosing the third party with knowledge of depending on said third party provider, then it was an accepted risk.
The problem is, I still get the wrong end of the stick when AWS or CF go down! Management doesn't care, understandably. They just want the money to keep coming in. It's hard to convince them that this is a pretty big problem. The only thing that will calm them down a bit is to tell them Twitter is also down. If that doesn't get them, I say ChatGPT is also down. Now NOBODY will get any work done! lol.
This is why you ALWAYS have a proposal ready. I literally had my ass saved by having tickets with reliability/redundancy work clearly laid out with comments by out of touch product/people managers deprioritizing the work after attempts to pull it off the backlog (in one infamous case for a notoriously poorly conceived and expensive failure of a project that haunted us again with lost opportunity cost).
The hilarious part of the whole story is that the same PMs and product managers were (and I cannot overemphasize this enough) absolutely militant orthodox agile practitioners with jira.
Every time a major cloud goes down, management tells us why don't we have a backup service that we can switch to. Then I tell them that a bunch of services worth a lot more than us are also down. Do you really want to spend the insane amount of resources to make sure our service stays up when the global internet is down?
Who decided to go with AWS of CF? If its a management decision tell them you need the resources to have a fallback if they want their system to be more reliable than AWS or CF.
Haha yeah I just got off the phone and I said, look, either this gets fixed soon or there's going to be news headlines with photographs of giant queues of people milling around in airports.
When I'm debugging something, I'm not usually looking for the solution to the problem; I'm looking for sufficient evidence that I didn't cause the problem. Once I have that, the velocity at which I work slows down
Maybe this isn’t great, but I get a hint of that feeling when I’m on an airplane and hear a baby crying. For a number of years, if I heard a baby crying, it was probably my baby and I had to deal with it. But now my kids are past that phase, so when I hear the crying, after that initial jolt of panic I realize that it isn’t my problem, and that does give me the warm fuzzies. Even though I do feel bad for the baby and their parents.
Related situation: you're at a family gathering and everyone has young kids running around. You hear a thump, and then some kid starts screaming. Conversation stops and every parent keenly listens to the screams to try and figure out whose kid just got hurt, then some other parent jumps up - it's not your kid! #phewphoria
Maybe "Erleichterung" (relief)? But as a German "Schadenserleichterung" (also: notice the "s" between both compound word parts) rather sounds like a reduction of damage (since "Erleichterung" also means mitigation or alleviation).
right I thought of that at first and discarded it for that reason. Which the problem really is that the normal story of how Schadenfreude works as a bit of German language how to is that the component that it is other people's damage that is sparking joy is missing from the word itself, that interpretation must be known by the word user, if you were just creating the word and nobody had heard it before in the world it would be pretty reasonable for people to think you had just created a new word for masochism.
Not quite, that’s more like taking pleasure in the misfortune of someone else. It’s close, but the specific relief bit that it is not _your_ misfortune is not captured
I woke up getting bombarded by multiple clients messages of sites not working, I shitted my pants because I've changed the config just yesterday. When I saw the status message "cloudflare down" I was so relieved.
Good that he worked it out so quick. I recently spent a day debugging email problems on Railway PaaS, because they silently closed an SMTP port without telling anyone.
You missed a great opportunity to dead-pan him with something like "No, Bob, not just our site, you brought down the entire Internet, look at this post!"
> In short, a latent bug in a service underpinning our bot mitigation capability started to crash after a routine configuration change we made. That cascaded into a broad degradation to our network and other services. This was not an attack.
It still astounds me that the big dogs still do not phase config rollouts. Code is data, configs are data, they are one and the same. It was the same issue with the giant crowdstrike outage last year, they were rawdogging configs globally and a bad config made it out there and everything went kaboom.
You NEED to phase config rollouts like you phase code rollouts.
The big dogs absolutely do phase config rollouts as a general rule.
There are still two weaknesses:
1) Some configs are inherently global and cannot be phased. There's only one place to set them. E.g. if you run a webapp, this would be configs for the load balancer as opposed to configs for each webserver
2) Some configs have a cascading effect -- even though a config is applied to 1% of servers, it affects the other servers they interact with, and a bad thing spreads across the entire network
> Some configs are inherently global and cannot be phased
This is also why "it is always DNS". It's not that DNS itself is particularly unreliable, but rather that it is the one area where you can really screw up a whole system by running a single command, even if everything else is insanely redundant.
Sure, but that doesn't really help for user-facing services where people expect to either type a domain name in their browser or click on a search result, and end up on your website every time.
And the access controls of DNS services are often (but not always) not fine-grained enough to actually prevent someone from ignoring the procedure and changing every single subdomain at once.
> Sure, but that doesn't really help for user-facing services where people expect to either type a domain name in their browser or click on a search result, and end up on your website every time.
It does help. For example, at my company we have two public endpoints:
company-staging.com
company.com
We roll out changes to company-staging.com first and have smoke tests which hit that endpoint. If the smoketests fail we stop the rollout to company.com.
That doesn’t help with rolling out updates to the DNS for company.com which is the point here. It’s always DNS because your pre-production smoke tests can’t test your production DNS configuration.
If I'm understanding it right, the idea is that the DNS configuration for company-staging.com is identical to that for company.com - same IPs and servers, DNS provider, domain registrar.
Literally the only differences are s/company/company-staging/, all accesses should hit the same server with the same request other than the Host header.
Then you can update the DNS configuration for company-staging.com, and if that doesn't break there's very little scope for the update to company.com to go differently.
The purpose of a staged rollout is to test things with some percentage of actual real-world production traffic, after having already thoroughly tested things in a private staging environment. Your staging URL doesn't have that. Unless the public happens to know about it.
The scope for it to go wrong is the differences in real-world and simulation.
It's a good thing to have, but not a replacement for the concept of staged rollout.
But users are going to example.com. Not my-service-33.example.com.
So if you've got some configuration that has a problem that only appears at the root-level domain, no amount of subdomain testing is going to catch it.
I think it's uncharitable to jump to the conclusion that just because there was a config-based outage they don't do phased config rollouts. And even more uncharitable to compare them to crowdstrike.
I have read several cloudflare postmortems and my confidence in their systems is pretty low. They used to run their entire control plane out of a single datacenter which is amateur hour for a tech company that has over $60 billion in market cap.
I also don’t understand how it is uncharitable to compare them to crowdstrike as both companies run critical systems that affect a large number of people’s lives, and both companies seem to have outages at a similar rate (if anything, cloudflare breaks more often than crowdstrike).
> The larger-than-expected feature file was then propagated to all the machines that make up our network
> As a result, every five minutes there was a chance of either a good or a bad set of configuration files being generated and rapidly propagated across the network.
I was right. Global config rollout with bad data. Basically the same failure mode of crowdstrike.
It seem fairly logical to me? If a config change causes services to crash then rollout stops … at least in every phased rollout system i’ve ever built…
In a company I am no longer with I argued much the same when we rolled out "global CI/CD" on IAC. You made one change, committed and pushed, wham it's on 40+ server clusters globally. I hated it. The principal was enamored with it, "cattle not pets" and all that, but the result was things slowed down considerably because anyone working with it became so terrified of making big changes.
Because adversaries adapt quickly, they have a system that deploys their counter-adversary bits quickly without phasing - no matter whether they call them code or configs. See also: Crowdstrike.
Configuration changes are dangerous for CF it seems, and knocked down $NET almost 4% today. I wonder what the industry wide impact is for each of these outages?
>Configuration changes are dangerous for CF it seems, and knocked down $NET almost 4% today. I wonder what the industry wide impact is for each of these outages?
This is becoming the "new normal." It seems like every few months, there's another "outage" that takes down vast swathes of internet properties, since they're all dependent on a few platforms and those platforms are, clearly, poorly run.
This isn't rocket surgery here. Strong change management, QA processes and active business continuity planning/infrastructure would likely have caught this (or not), as is clear from other large platforms that we don't even think about because outages are so rare.
Like airline reservations systems[0], credit card authorization systems from VISA/MasterCard, American Express, etc.
Those systems (and others) have outages in the "once a decade" or even much, much, longer ranges. Are the folks over at SABRE and American Express that much smarter and better than Cloudflare/AWS/Google Cloud/etc.? No. Not even close. What they are is careful as they know their business is dependent on making sure their customers can use their services anytime/anywhere, without issue.
It amazes me the level of "Stockholm Syndrome"[1] expressed by many posting to this thread, expressing relief that it wasn't "an attack" and essentially blaming themselves for not having the right tools (API keys, etc.) to recover from the gross incompetence of, this time at least, Cloudflare.
I don't doubt that I'll get lots of push back from folks claiming, "it's hard to do things at scale," and/or "there are way too many moving parts," and the like.
Other organizations like the ones I mention above don't screw they're customers every 4-6 months with (clearly) insufficiently tested configuration and infrastructure changes.
Yet many here seem to think that's fine, even though such outages are often crushing to their businesses. But if the customers of these huge providers don't demand better, they'll only get worse. And that's not (at least in my experience) a very deep or profound idea.
Pretty much everything is down (checking from the Netherlands). The Cloudflare dashboard itself is experiencing an outage as well.
Not-so-funny thing is that the Betterstack dashboard is down but our status page hosted by Betterstack is up, and we can't access the dashboard to create an incident and let our customers know what's going on.
Yep that's also my experience. Except HN because it does not use *** Cloudflare because it knows it is not necessary. I just wrote a blog titled "Do Not Put Your Site Behind Cloudflare if You Don't Need To" [1].
No, since they're simply too many. For an e-commerce site I work for, we once had an issue where some bad-actor tried to crawl the site to set up scam shops. The list of IPs were way too broad, and the user-agents way too generic or random.
Could you not also use an ASN list like https://github.com/brianhama/bad-asn-list and add blocks of IPs to a blocklist (eg. ipset on Linux)? Most of the scripty traffic comes from VPSs.
Thanks to widespread botnets, most scrapers fall back to using "residential proxies" the moment you block their cloud addresses. Same load, but now you risk accidentally blocking customers coming from similar net blocks.
Blocking ASNs is one step of the fight, but unfortunately it's not the solution.
Hypothetically, as a cyber-criminal, I'd like to thank the blacklist industry for bringing so much money into criminal enterprises by making residential proxies mandatory for all scraping.
Its not one IP to block. Its thousands! And they're also scatter through different ip networks so no simple cidr block is possible. Oh, and just for the fun, when you block their datacenter ips they switch to hundreds of residential network ips.
Yes, they are really hard to block. In the end I switched to Cloudflare to just so they can handle this mess.
Wouldn't it be trivial to just to write a uwf to block the crawler ips?
Probably more effective would be to get the bots to exclude your IP/domain. I do this for SSH, leaving it open on my public SFTP servers on purpose. [1] If I can get 5 bot owners to exclude me that could be upwards of 250k+ nodes mostly mobile IP's that stop talking to me. Just create something that confuses and craps up the bots. With SSH bots this is trivial as most SSH bot libraries and code are unmaintained and poorly written to begin with. In my ssh example look for the VersionAddendum. Old versions of ssh, old ssh libraries and code that tries to implement ssh itself will choke on a long banner string. Not to be confused with the text banner file.
I'm sure the clever people here could make something similar for HTTPS and especially for GPT/LLM bots at the risk of being flagged "malicious".
Belated response as I called it a night over here in sunny Australia!
The image scraping bots are training for generative AI, I'm assuming.
As to why they literally scrape the same images hundreds of thousands of times?
I have no idea!
But I am not special, the bots have been doing it across the internet.
My main difference to other sites is that I operate a Tourism focused SAAS for local organisations and government tourist boards. Which means we have a very healthy amount of images being served per page across our sites.
We also do on the fly transformations for responsive images and formats.
Which is all done through Cloudinary.
The Bytespider bot (Bytedance / TikTok) was the one that was being abusive for me.
Bad actors now have access to tens of thousands of IPs and servers on the fly.
The cost of hardware and software resources these days is absolute peanuts compared to 10 years ago. Cloud services and APIs has made managing them also trivial as hell.
Cloudflare is simply a evolution in response to the other side also having evolved greatly, both legitimate and illegitimate users.
Yes, I never understand this obsession for centralized services like Cloudflare. To be fair though, if our tiny blogs anyway had a hundred or so visitors monthly, does it matter if it had an outage for a day?
Interesting. I've done a lot of manual work to set up a whole nginx layer to properly route stuff through one domain to various self-hosted services, with way to many hard lessons when I started this journey (from trying to do manual setup without docker, to moving onto repeatable setups via docker, etc.).
The setup appears very simple in Caddy - amazingly simple, honestly. I'm going to give it a good try.
Cloudflare explicitly supports customers placing insecure HTTP only sites behind a cloudflare HTTPS.
It's one of the more controversial parts of the business, it makes the fact that the traffic is unencrypted on public networks invisible to the end user.
1. DDOS protection is not the only thing anymore, I use cloudflare because of vast amounts of AI bots from thousands of ASNs around the world crawling my CI servers (bloated Java VMs on very undersized hosts) and bringing them down (granted, I threw cloudflare onto my static sites as well which was not really necessary, I just liked their analytics UX)
2. the XKCD comic is mis-interpreted there, that little block is small because it's a "small open source project run by one person", cloudflare is the opposite of that
3. edit: also cloudflare is awesome if you are migrating hosts, did a migration this past month, you point cloudflare to the new servers and it's instant DNS propagation (since you didnt propagate anything :) )
It’s that time of the year again where we all realize that relying on AWS and Cloudflare to this degree is pretty dangerous but then again it’s difficult to switch at this point.
If there is a slight positive note to all this, then it is that these outages are so large that customers usually seem to be quite understanding.
Unless you’re say at airport trying to file a luggage claim … or at the pharmacy trying to get your prescription. I think as a community we have a responsibility to do better than this.
I always see such negative responses when HN brings up software bloat ("why is your static site measured in megabytes").
Now that we have an abundance of compute and most people run devices more powerful than the devices that put man on the moon, it's easier than ever to make app bloat, especially when using a framework like Electron or React Native.
People take it personally when you say they write poor quality software, but it's not a personal attack, it's an observation of modern software practices.
And I'm guilty of this, mainly because I work for companies that prioritize speed of development over quality of software, and I suspect most developers are in this trap.
I think we have a new normal now though. Most web devs starting now don't know a world without React/Vue/Solid/whatever. Like, sure you can roll your own HTML site with JS for interactivity, but employers now don't seem to care about that; if you don't know React then don't bother.
You aren’t cloudflare’s customer in these examples. It depends on the companies that are actually paying for and using the service to complain. Odds are that they won’t care on your behalf due to how our society is structured.
Not really sure how our community is supposed to deal with this.
“We” are the ones making the architecture and the technical specs of these services. Taking care for it to still work when your favourite FAANGMC is down seems like something we can help with.
> If there is a slight positive note to all this, then it is that these outages are so large that customers usually seem to be quite understanding.
Which only shows that chasing five 9s is worthless for almost all web products. The idea is that by relying on AWS or Cloudflare you can push your uptime numbers up to that standard, but these companies themselves are having such frequent outages that customers themselves don't expect that kind reliability from web products.
If I choose AWS/cloudflare and we're down with half of the internet, then I don't even need to explain it to my boss' bosses, because there will be an article in the mainstream media.
If I choose something else, we're down, and our competitors aren't, then my overlords will start asking a lot of questions.
Yup. AWS went down at a previous job and everyone basically took the day off and the company collectively chuckled. Cloudflare is interesting because most execs don’t know about it so I’d imagine they’d be less forgiving. “So what does cloudflare do for us exactly? Don’t we already have aws?”
Or _you_ aren't down, but a third-party you depend on is (auth0, payment gateway, what have you), and you invested a lot of time and effort into being reliable, but it was all for less than nothing, because your website loads but customers can't purchase, and they associate the problem with you, not with the AWS outage.
In reality it is not half of the internet. That is just marketing. I've personally noticed one news site while others were working. And I guess sites like that will get the blame.
Happy to hear anyone's suggestions about where else to go or what else to do in regards to protecting from large-scale volumetric DDoS attacks. Pretty much every CDN provider nowadays has stacked up enough capacity to tank these kind of attacks, good luck trying to combat these yourself these days?
Somehow KiwiFarms figured it out with their own "KiwiFlare" DDOS mitigation. Unfortunately, all of the other Cloudflare-like services seem exceptionally shady, will be less reliable than Cloudflare, and probably share data with foreign intelligence services I have even less trust for than the ones Cloudflare possibly shares them with.
Unfortunately Anubis doesn't help where my pipe to the internet isn't fat enough to just eat up all the bandwidth that the attacker has available. Renting tens of terabits of capacity isn't cheap and DDoS attacks nowadays are in the scale of that. BunnyCDN's DDoS protection is unfortunately too basic to filter out anything that's ever so slightly more sophisticated. Cloudflare's flexibility in terms of custom rulesets and their global pre-trained rulesets (based on attacks they've seen in the past) is imo just unbeatable at this time.
The Bunny Shield is quite similar to the Cloudflare setup. Maybe not 100% overlap of features but unless you’re Twitter or Facebook, it’s probably enough.
I think at the very least, one should plan the ability to switch to an alternative when your main choice fails… which together with AWS and GitHub is a weekly event now.
Why do people on a technical website suggest this? It's literally the same snake oil as Cloudflare. Both have an endgame of total web DRM; they want to make sure users "aren't bots". Each time the DRM is cracked, they will increase its complexity of the "verifier". You will be running arbitrary code in your big 4 browser to ensure you're running a certified big 4 browser, with 10 trillion man hours of development, on an certified OS.
And if you do rule based blocking they just change their approach. I am constantly blocking big corps these days, barely any work with normal bad actors.
What do they even have an spider for? I never saw any actual traffic with source Facebook. I don't understand either, but it's their official IPs, their official bot headers and it behaves exactly like someone who wants my sites down.
Does it make sense? Nah, but is it part of the weird reality we live in. Looks like it
I have no way of contacting Facebook. All I can do is keep complaining on hackernews whenever the topic arrises.
Edit:// Oh and I see the same with Azure, however there I have no list of IPs to verify it's official just because it looks like it.
5 9's is like 7 minutes a year. They are breaking SLAs and impacting services people depend on
Tbh though this is sort of all the other companies fault, "everyone" uses aws and cf and so others follow. now not only are all your chicks in one basket, so is everyone elses. When the basket inevitably falls into a lake....
Providers need to be more aware of their global impact in outages, and customers need to be more diverse in their spread.
These kinds of outages continue to happen and continue to impact 50+% of the internet, yes, they know they have that power, but they dont treat changes as such, so no, they arent aware. Awareness would imply more care in operations like code changes and deployments.
Outages happen, code changes occur; but you can do a lot to prevent these things on a large scale, and they simply dont.
Where is the A/B deployment, preventing a full outage? What about internally, where was the validation before the change, was the testing run against a prodlike environment or something that once resembled prod but hasnt forever?
They could absolutely mitigate impacting the entire global infra in multiple ways, and havent, despite their many outages.
They are aware. They don't want to pay the cost benefit tradeoff. Education won't help - this is a very heavily argued tradeoff in every large software company.
I do think this is tenable as long as these services are reliable. Even though there have been some outages I would argue that they’re incredibly reliable at this point. If though this ever changes the costs to move to a competitor won’t be as simple as pushing a repository elsewhere, especially for AWS. I think that’s where some of the potential danger lies.
> and judging by the HN post age, we're now past minute 60 of this incident.
Huh? It's been back up during most of this time. It was up and then briefly went back down again but it's been up for a while now. Total downtime was closer to 30 minutes
Not saying not to do this to get through, but just as an observation, it’s also the sort of thing that can make these issues a nightmare to remediate, since the outage can actually draw more traffic just as things are warming up, from customers desperate to get through.
I'm already logged in on the cloudflare dashboard and trying to disable the CF proxy, but getting "404 | Either this page does not exist, or you do not have permission to access it" when trying to access the DNS configuration page.
And I got a 504 error (served by CloudFront) on that status page earlier. The error message suggested there may have been a great increase in traffic that caused it.
Maybe that's precisely what Cloudflare did and now their status page is down because it's receiving an unusual amount of traffic that the VPS can't handle.
Could always just use a status page that updates itself. For my side project Total Real Returns [1], if you scroll down and look at the page footer, I have a live status/uptime widget [2] (just an <img> tag, no JS) which links to an externally-hosted status page [3]. Obviously not critical for a side project, but kind of neat, and was fun to build. :)
This is unrelated to the cloudflare incident but thanks a lot for making that page. I keep checking it from time to time and it's basically the main data source for my long term investing.
1- Does GCP also have any outages recently similar to AWS, Azure or CF? If a similar size (14 TB?) DDoS were to hit GCP, would it stand or would it fail?
2- If this DDoS was targeting Fly.io, would it stand? :)
I actually spoke too soon, and accept I have egg on my face!
Apparently prisma's `npm exec prisma generate` command tries to download "engine binaries" from https://binaries.prisma.sh, which is behind... guess what...
So now my CI/CD is broken, while my production env is down, and I can't fix it.
Seems like workers are less affected and maybe betterstack has decided to bypass cloudflare "stuff" for the status pages? (maybe to cut down costs). My site is still up though some GitHub runners did show it failed at certain points.
Pretty sure they went down for a while because I have 4xx errors they returned but apparently it was short-lived. I wonder if their workers infra. failed for a moment and that let to a total collapse of all of their products?
When its back up, do yourself a favour and rent a $5/mo vps in another country from a provider like OVH or Hetzner and stick your status page on that.
"Yes but what if they go down" - it doesnt matter, having it hosted by someone who can be down for the same reason as your main product/service is a recipe for disaster.
Definitely. Tangentially, I encountered 504 Gateway Timeout errors on cloudflarestatus.com about an hour ago. The error page also disclosed the fact that it's powered by CloudFront (Amazon's CDN).
Been using Cachet for quite a while before inevitably migrating to Atlassian's Statuspage.io. I'm a huge fan of self-hosting and self-managing every single thing in existence but Cachet was just such a PITA to maintain and there was just no other good alternative to Cachet that was also open source.
I don't get why you need such a service for a status page with 99.whatever% uptime. I mean, your status page only has to be up if everything else is down, so maybe 1% uptime is fine.
There's something maliciously satisfying about seeing your own self-hosted stuff working while things behind Cloudflare or AWS are broken. Sure, they have like four more nines that me, but right now I'm sitting pretty.
My (s)crappy personal site was up during the AWS outage, Azure outage and now Cloud flare outage. And I have it for 2 months only! Maybe I can add a tracker somewhere, might be fun.
Uptime Kuma already has some automatically generated badges[1], but not for specific events. Your could manually built your own custom ones based on the same framework[2] though.
How do you deal with DNS? I'm hosting something on a Raspberry Pi at home, and I had recently moved the DNS to Cloudflare. It's quite funny seeing my small personal website being down, although quite satisfying seeing both the browser and host with a green tick while Cloudflare is down.
DNS is actually one of the easiest services to self-host, and it's fairly tolerant of downtime due to caching. If you want redundancy/geographical distribution, Hurricane Electric has a free secondary/slave DNS service [0] where they'll automatically mirror your primary/master DNS server.
I don't have experience with a dynDNS setup like you describe, hosting from (probably) home. But my domains are on a VPS (and a few other places here and there) and DNS is done via my domain reseller's DNS settings pages.
Never had an issue hosting my stuff, but as said - don't yet have experience hoting something from home with a more dynamic DNS setup.
This is a real problem for some some “old-school enterprise” companies that use Oracle, SAP, etc. along with the new AWS/CF based services. They are all waiting around for new apps to come back up while their Oracle suite/SAP are still functioning. There is a lesson here for some of these new companies selling to old-school companies.
I was just able to save a proxied site. Then the dashboard went down again. I didn't even know it was still on. It's really not doing anything for performance because the traffic is quite low.
Is it me or has there been a very noticeable uptick in large scale infra-level outages lately? AWS, Cloudflare, etc have all been way under whatever SLA they publish.
Imagine vibe coding something in production, it breaks half the internet, then you can't vibe code it back because it broke the LLM providers. A real catch-22 for the modern age!
That does seem to be a coincidence, as the recent outages making headlines (including this one according to early reports) have been associated with huge traffic spikes. It seems DDoS are reaching a new level.
For me the only silver lining to all these cloud outages is now we know that their published SLA times mean absolutely nothing. The number of 9's used to at least give an indication of intent of reliability, now they are twisted to whatever metric the company wants to represent and dont actually represent guaranteed uptime anywhere.
Doesn’t everyone do that? I’ve never worked for a place that the base policy wasn’t credits. You might have special contract language stating otherwise, but for almost everyone, it’s credits.
I think it's crazy that the SLA just gives you a credit. Even worse! In the contracts I've seen, you have to prove the duration of the outage and sometimes even that there was commercial impact using your own monitoring. What a pain in the ass.
It would be easy for me to tell my customers exactly what they need to say to get the maximum, but I've been told not to do that, so I guess it's on them to figure it out.
Some of the other commenters here have posited a "vibe code theory". As the amount of vibe code in production increases, so does the number of bugs and, therefore, the number of outages.
None of the recent major outages were traced down to "vibe coding" or anything of the sort. They appear to be the kind of misconfigurations and networking fuckups that existed since Internet became more complex than 3 routers.
The "vibe thinking" trend where people stop using their brain and rely on whatever random output the LLM tells them is harder to diagnose, but it's certainly there and at least as bad as vibe coding.
What about the “vibe thinking” trend where people project their own narratives on to every situation, even if the information available shows that it’s a rise in large scale DDoS attacks?
> Some of the other commenters here have posited a "vibe code theory". As the amount of vibe code in production increases, so does the number of bugs and, therefore, the number of outages.
Likely this coupled with the mass brain damage caused by never-ending COVID re-infections.
Since vaccines don't prevent transmission, and each re-infection increases the chances of long COVID complications, the only real protection right now is wearing a proper respirator everywhere you go, and basically nobody is doing that anymore.
Most people are not self reflective reflective enough to notice. Need to trust the studies.
Far more plausible than the AI ideas.
I find it far more likely these are smart people running without oversight for years pre-COVID, relying on being smart at 2am change windows. Now half or a full std. dev. lower on the IQ scale, hubris means fewer guard rails before change, and far lower ability to recover during change window.
I somehow doubt that if a majority of the population was a full standard deviation lower on the IQ scale that nobody would be talking about it, that there wouldn't be more research, and that it wouldn't be covered by the news whatsoever.
Keep in mind many parties benefit from capitalizing on hysterical hype. And you're going to sit here and tell me they're all keeping it covered up for some reason?
This comes off like the extreme left-wing equivalent of extreme right-wingers that say the "world is run by the evil jewish cabal" and when people ask for proof, they retort "everyone is hiding it so none exists".
For a select few, maybe, but it's obviously not enough of the population to make a significant difference in downtime outages in large tech corporations.
It's far more likely due to either AI, or more directly, layoffs and offshoring, as that affects hundreds of thousands of their employees.
I have become dumber without having contracted covid or other respiratory diseases (which could have been covid). 2020s have been the era of fascism, war and communities getting torn, which does not really help with stress levels and intellectual performance.
The theory I’ve heard is holiday deploy freezes coupled with Q4 goals creates pressure to get things in quickly and early. It’s all been in the last month or so which does line up.
This only amplifies the often-repeated propaganda about the "very powerful" enemies of democracy, who in fact are very fragile dictatorships. There's enough incompetence at tech companies to f up their own stuff.
Somewhere, at a floating desk behind a wall of lava lamps, in a nyancatified ghostty terminal with 32 different shader plugins installed:
You're absolutely right! I shouldn't have force pushed that change to master. Let me try and roll it back. * Confrobulating* Oh no! Cloudflare appears to be down and I cannot revert the change. Why don't you go make a cup of coffee until that comes back. This code is production ready, it's probably just a blip.
If it's any guidance, US cyber risk insurance (which covers among other things disruptions due to supplier outages) has continuously dropped in price since Q1 2023, with a handful of percent per year.
Even many non tech people have begun to associate Internet wide outages with “aws must be down” so I imagine many of them searching “is aws down” and for down detector, a hit is a down report, so it will report aws impacts even when the culprit is cloudflare in this case
interesting, maybe "AWS is down" will become the new "the server is down" that some non-tech people throw around when anything unexpected happen on their computer?
How did we get to a place where either Cloudflare or AWS having an outage means a large part of the web going down? This centralization is very worrying.
Oddly this centralization allows a complete deferral of blame without you even doing anything: if you’re down, that’s bad. But if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
It also reduces your incentive to change, if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else. Even if your web site is up they’ll assume it isn’t.
I’m not saying this is a good thing but I’m simply being realistic about why we ended up where we are.
As a user I do care, because I waste so much time on Cloudflare's "prove you are human" blocking-page (why do I have to prove it over and over again?), and frequently run on websites blocking me entirely based on some bad IP-blacklist used along with Cloudflare.
If you have a site with valuable content the LLM crawlers hound you to no end. CF is basically a protection racket at this point for many sites. It doesnt even stop the more determined ones but it keeps some away.
Oh, they're still botnets. We just look the other way because they're useful.
And they're pretty tame as far as computer fraud goes - if my device gets compromised I'd much rather deal with it being used for fake YouTube views than ransomware or a banking trojan.
You can make a little bit of cash on the side letting companies use your bandwidth a bit for proxying. You won’t even notice. $50/month. Times are tough!
Of course the risk here being whatever nefarious or illegal shit is flowing through your pipes, which you consented to and even received consideration for.
Unfortunately the problem isn't just "the internet sucks" it's "the internet sucks, and everyone uses it" - meaning people are not doing stuff offline, and a lot of our lives require us to be online.
Absolutely. They have dramatically worsened the world, with little to no net positive impact. Nearly every (if not all) positive impacts have an associated negative that that dwarfs it.
LLMs aren't going anywhere, but the world would be a better place if they hadn't been developed. Even if they had more positive impacts, those would not outweigh the massive environmental degradation they are causing or the massive disincentive they created against researching other, more useful forms of AI.
IMO LLMs have been a net negative on society, including my life. But I'm merely pointing out the stark contrast on this website, and that fact that we can choose to live differently.
I am not anti-AI, nor unhappy about how any current LLM works. I'm unhappy about how AI is used and abused to collective detriment. LLM scraper spam leading to increased centralization and wider impacting failures is just one example.
Your position is similar to saying that medical drugs have been a net negative on society, because some drugs have been used and abused to collective detriment (and other negative effects, such as doctors prescribing pills instead of suggesting lifestyle changes). Does it mean that we would be better off without any medical drugs?
My position is that the negatives outweigh the positives, and I don't appreciate your straw man response. It's clear your question is not genuine and you're here to be contrarian.
A solid secondary option is making LLM scraping for training opt-in, and/or compensating sites that were/are scraped for training data. Hell, maybe then you could not knock websites over incentivizing them to use Cloudflare in the first place.
But that means LLM researchers have to respect other people's IP which hasn't been high on their todo lists as yet.
bUt ThAT dOeSn'T sCaLe - not my fuckin problem chief. If you as an LLM developer are finding your IP banned or you as a web user are sick of doing "prove you're human" challenges, it isn't the website's fault. They're trying to control costs being arbitrarily put onto them by a disinterested 3rd party who feels entitled to their content, which it costs them money to deliver. Blame the asshole scraping sites left and right.
Edit: and you wouldn't even need to go THAT far. I scrape a whole bunch of sites for some tools I built and a homemade news aggregator. My IP has never been flagged because I keep the number of requests down wherever possible, and rate-limit them so it's more in line with human like browsing. Like so much of this could be solved with basic fucking courtesy.
Not to speak for the other poster, but... That's not a good-faith question.
Most of the problems on the internet in 2025 aren't because of one particular technology. They're because the modern web was based on gentleman's agreements and handshakes, and since those things have now gotten in the way of exponential profit increases on behalf of a few Stanford dropouts, they're being ignored writ large.
CF being down wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if their service wasn't one of the main ways to protect against LLM crawlers that blatantly ignore robots.txt and other long-established means to control automated extraction of web content. But, well, it is one of the main ways.
Would it be one of the main ways to protect against LLM web scraping if we investigated one of the LLM startups for what is arguably a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, arrested their C-suite, and sent each member to a medium-security federal prison (I don't know, maybe Leavenworth?) for multiple years after a fair trial?
I'm Sure there will be an investigation... By the SEC when the bubble pops and takes the S&P with it. No prison though, probably jobs at the next ponzi scheme
I just realized, why don't they have some "definitely human" third party cookie that caches your humanness for 24h or so? I'm sure there's a reason, I've heard third party cookies were less respected now, but can someone chime in on why this doesn't work and save a ton of compute?
Yes, there are several, and the good one (linked below) lets you use the "humanness" token across different websites without them being able to use it as a tracking signal / supercookie. It's very clever.
That's a problem caused by bots and spammers and DDoSers, that Cloudflare is trying to alleviate.
And you generally don't have to prove it over and over again unless there's a high-risk signal associated with you, like you're using a VPN or have cookies disabled, etc. Which are great for protecting your privacy, but then obviously privacy means you do have to keep demonstrating you're not a bot.
You might say the problem CloudFlare is causing is lesser than the ones it's solving, but you can't say they're not causing a new, separate problem.
That they're trying counts for brownie points, it's not an excuse to be satisfied with something that still bothers a lot of people. Do better, CloudFlare.
"We have decided to endlessly punish you for using what few tools you have to avoid being exploited online, because it makes our multi-billion dollar business easier. Sucks to be you."
> It has nothing to do with being a multi-billion dollar corp.
Cloudflare is the multi-billion dollar corporation. It has everything to do with that, because they are the primary cause, and their resources and position make them by far the best equipped to solve it.
> Criticizing when there's no other solution isn't very useful, is it?
Of course it is. Without criticism, the growing problem goes unacknowledged and allowed to persist. It should instead be continually called out until it is prioritized, and some of those billions should be spent on researching a solution. (Similarly, a company found to be dumping waste into a river should be held responsible for cleaning up the mess they created. Even if that turns out to be expensive or difficult.)
Expecting a single affected person to solve it for the big corp that caused it is unrealistic. And blaming the victims because they use VPNs or disable cookies is... unhelpful.
CloudFlare is protecting sites from DDoS attacks and out-of-control bots. They're not the ones causing them. If CloudFlare wasn't asking you to prove you're human, many times the site would be down entirely because it couldn't keep up. Or the site would simply shut down because it couldn't afford it.
And this isn't a question of spending some fraction of billions on researching a solution. There fundamentally isn't one, if you understand how the internet works. This is a problem a lot of people would like to solve better, believe me.
So, yes, criticizing Cloudflare here is as useful as criticizing it for not having faster-than-light communication. There's nothing else it can do. It's not "blaming the victims".
I'm going to assume you simply don't have the technical understanding of how the internet works. Because the position you're taking is simply absurd and nonsensical, and there's no way you would write what you're writing otherwise.
Privacy through uniformity, operational security by routine, herd immunity for privacy, traffic normalization, "anonymity set expansion", "nothing to hide" paradox, etc.
I.e., if you use Tor for "normie sites", then the fact that someone can be seen using Tor is no longer a reliable proxy for detecting them trying to see/do something confidential and it becomes harder to identify & target journalists, etc. just because they're using Tor.
Tor Browser has ~1M daily users. Tons of people use it for hitting sites that may be blocked in their country or they want to have some privacy like view pregnancy or health related articles and etc.
In addition to the reasons in sibling comment, this also acts as a filter for low-quality ad-based sites; same reason I close just about any website that gives me a popup about a ToS agreement.
This is essentially the entire IT excuse for going to anything cloud. I see IT engineers all the time justifying that the downtime stops being their problem and they stop being to blame for it. There's zero personal responsibility in trying to preserve service, because it isn't "their problem" anymore. Anyone who thinks the cloud makes service more reliable is absolutely kidding themselves, because everyone who made the decision to go that way already knows it isn't true, it just won't be their problem to fix it.
If anyone in the industry actually cared about reliability and took personal stake in their system being up, everyone would be back on-prem.
Reliability is not even how the cloud got sold to the C Suite. Good God, when my last company started putting things on Azure back in 2015 stuff would break weekly, usually on Monday mornings.
No, the value proposition was always about saving money, turning CapEx into OpEx. Direct quote from my former CEO maybe 9 years ago: We are getting out of the business of buying servers.
Cloud engineering involves architecting for unexpected events: retry patterns, availability zones, multi-region fail over, that sort of thing.
Now - does it all add up to cost savings? I could not tell you. I have seen some case studies, but I also have been around long enough to take those with a big grain of salt.
It's amazing how there's so many cybersecurity incidents now. Bypassing IT will always backfire spectacularly, IT is the people that stop you from dumbing.
The opposite was/is true. If your cloud box can only be used by two people and IT don’t even know about it then IT can never be persuaded to provide the keys to the rest of the company as they were predisposed to doing.
I saw this stuff too many times, and it is precisely why the cloud exploded in use in about 2010.
One notable example was signing keys for builds for distribution actually. And IT had a habit of handing them out to absolutely everyone. Being able to audit who did the signing was done in spite of IT who could, of course, never be persuaded of the merit of any process they don’t own.
I won't discount your IT can be bad, but also if you're keeping something as core to your security as signing keys somewhere your IT can't audit, you are just as bad. And your IT won't be the ones fired when your keys leak.
That might have been true for some kind of organization, but definitely not for every kind. On the other side, there were start-ups that wanted the elasticity and no commitments. But both sides at least partially liked the "it's not on me anymore" feature.
IMHO it adds, but only if you are big enough. Netflix level. At that level, you go and dine with Bezos and negotiate a massive discount. For anyone else, I’d genuinely love to see the numbers that prove otherwise.
> There's zero personal responsibility
Unfortunately, this seems to be the unspoken mantra of modern IT management. Nobody wants to be directly accountable for anything, yet everyone wants to have their fingerprints on everything. A paradox of collaboration without ownership.
Cloud providers have formalized these deals actually. If you promise to spend X amount over Y period, you get Z discounts.
And this is not reserved instances, this is an org level pricing deal. Some have been calling it anti-competitive and saying the regulators need to look at the practice.
> IMHO it adds, but only if you are big enough. Netflix level. At that level, you go and dine with Bezos and negotiate a massive discount. For anyone else, I’d genuinely love to see the numbers that prove otherwise.
It adds if you're smart about using resources efficiently, at any level. And engineer the system to spin up / spin down as customers dictate.
For situations where resources are allocated but are only being utilized a low percentage (even < 50% in some cases), it is not cost effective. All that compute / RAM / disk / network etc. is just sitting there wasted.
I mean in the end it's about making a trade off that makes sense for your business.
If the business can live with a couple of hours downtime per year when "cloud" is down, and they think they can ship faster / have less crew / (insert perceived benefit), then I don't know why that is a problem.
It is a trade-off between convenience and freedom. Netflix vs buying your movies. Spotify vs mp3s. Most tech products have alternatives. But you need to be flexible and adjust your expectations. Most people are not willing to do that
The issue is that real life is not adaptable. Resources and capital are slow.
That's the whole issue with monopolies for example, innit? We envision "ideal free market dynamics" yet in practice everybody just centralizes for efficiency gains.
Right, and my point is that "ideal free market dynamics" conveniently always ignore this failure state that seems to always emerge as a logical consequence of its tenets.
I don't have a better solution, but it's a clear problem. Also, for some reason, more and more people (not you) will praise and attack anyone who doesn't defend state A (ideal equilibrium). Leaving no room to point out state B as a logical consequence of A which requires intervention.
The definition of a monopoly basically resolves to "those companies that don't get pressured to meaningfully compete on price or quality", it's a tautology. If a firm has to compete, it doesn't remain a monopoly. What's the point you're making here?
There absolutely are options but we aren't using them because nobody cares enough about these downsides. bsky is up, with Mastodon you even have choice between tons of servers and setting up your own. Yet, nobody cares enough about the occasional outage to switch. It's such a minor inconvenience that it won't move the needle one bit. If people actually cared, businesses would lose customers and correct the issue.
More like it's time for the pendulum to swing back...
We had very decentralized "internet" with BBSes, AOL, Prodigy, etc.
Then we centralized on AOL (ask anyone over 40 if they remember "AOL Keyword: ACME" plastered all over roadside billboards).
Then we revolted and decentralized across MySpace, Digg, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
Then we centralized on Facebook.
We are in the midst of a second decentralization...
...from an information consumer's perspective. From an internet infrastructure perspective, the trend has been consistently toward more decentralization. Initially, even after everyone moved away from AOL as their sole information source online, they were still accessing all the other sites over their AOL dial-up connection. Eventually, competitors arrived and, since AOL no longer had a monopoly on content, they lost their grip on the infrastructure monopoly.
Later, moving up the stack, the re-centralization around Facebook (and Google) allowed those sources to centralize power in identity management. Today, though, people increasingly only authenticate to Facebook or Google in order to authenticate to some 3rd party site. Eventually, competitors for auth will arrive (or already have ahem passkeys coughcough) and, as no one goes to Facebook anymore anyway, they'll lose grip on identity management.
It's an ebb and flow, but the fundamental capability for decentralization has existed in the technology behind the internet from the beginning. Adoption and acclimatization, however, is a much slower process.
These centralized services do and did solve problems. I'm old enough to remember renting a quarter rack, racking my own server and other infrastructure, and managing all that. That option hasn't gone away, but there are layers of abstraction at work that many people probably haven't and don't want to be exposed to.
Aaand even if we ignore the "benefit" of Cloudflare and AWS outages being blamed on them, rather than you, what does uptime look like for artisanaly hosted services on a quarter rack vs your average services on AWS and Cloudflare?
> Businesses and peoples’ livelihoods are online nowadays
What happened to having a business continuity plan? E.g. when your IT system is down, writing down incoming orders manually and filling them into the system when it's restored?
I have a creeping suspicion that people don't care about that, in which case they can't really expect more than to occasionally be forced into some downtime by factors outside of their control.
Either it's important enough to have contingencies in place, or it's not. Downtime will happen either way, no matter how brilliant the engineers working at these large orgs are. It's just that with so much centralization (probably too much) the blast range of any one outage will be really large.
My wife and I own a small theatre. We can process orders in-store just fine. Our customers can even avoid online processing fees if they purchase in-store. And if our POS system went down, we could absolutely fall back to pencil and paper.
Doesn't change the fact that 99% of our ticket sales happen online. People will even come in to the theatre to check us out (we're magicians and it's a small magic shop + magic-themed theatre - so people are curious and we get a lot of foot traffic) but, despite being in the store, despite being able to buy tickets right then and there and despite the fact that it would cost less to do so ... they invariably take a flyer and scan the QR code and buy online.
We might be kind of niche, since events usually sell to groups of people and it's rare that someone decides to attend an event by themselves right there on the spot. So that undoubtedly explains why people behave like this - they're texting friends and trying to see who is interested in going. But I'm still bringing us up as an example to illustrate just how "online" people are these days. Being online allows you to take a step back, read the reviews, price shop, order later and have things delivered to your house once you've decided to commit to purchasing. That's just normal these days for so many businesses and their customers.
I’m not so sure about that. The pre-internet age had a lot of forced “mental health breaks”. Phone lines went down. Mail was delayed. Trains stalled. Businesses and livelihoods continued to thrive.
The idea that we absolutely need 24/7 productivity is a new one and I’m not that convinced by it. Obviously there are some scenarios that need constant connectivity but those are more about safety (we don’t want the traffic lights to stop working everywhere) than profit.
Just want to correct the record here, as someone who worked at a local CLEC where we took availability quite seriously before the age of the self-defeatist software engineer.
Phone lines absolutely did not go down. Physical POTS lines (Yes, even the cheap residential ones) were required to have around 5 9s of availability, or approximately 5 minutes per year. And that's for a physical medium affected by weather, natural disasters, accidents, and physical maintenance. If we or the LEC did not meet those targets contracts would be breached and worst case the government would get involved.
Okay, as someone who also worked in that era I’ll be pedantic: internal phone systems went down. I experienced it multiple times so I certainly know it happened.
Most businesses are totally fine if they have a few hours of downtime. More uptime is better, but treating an outage like a disaster or an e-commerce site like a power plant is more about software engineer egos than business or customer needs.
If AWS is down, most businesses on AWS are also down, and it’s mostly fine for those businesses.
I’ve worked in cloud consulting for a little over five years. I can say 95% of the time when I discuss the cost and complexity tradeoffs of their websites being down vs going multi region or god forbid “multi cloud”, they shrug and say, it will be fine if they are down for a couple of hours.
This was the same when I was doing consulting inside (ie large companies willing to pay the premium cost of AWS ProServe consultants) and outside working at 3rd party companies.
It's better to have diverse, imperfect infrastructure, than one form of infra that goes down with devastating results.
I'm being semi-flippant but people do need to cope with an internet that is less than 100% reliable. As the youth like to say, you need to touch grass
Being less flippant: an economy that is completely reliant on the internet is one vulnerable to cyberattacks, malware, catastrophic hardware loss
It also protects us from the malfeasance or incompetence of actors like Google (who are great stewards of internet infrastructure... until it's no longer in their interests)
Wealthy, investment-bloated software companies will be fine.
Smaller companies that provide real world services or goods to make a much more meagre living that rely on some of the services sold to them by said software companies will be impacted much more greatly.
Losing a day or two of sales to someone who relies on making sales every day can be a growing hardship.
This doesn’t just impact developers. It’s exactly this kind of myopic thinking that leads to scenarios like mass outages.
My friend, that is just not reality. And it's not just e-commerce t shirt slingers I am talking about here.
You have to realize when software companies tell the world they should rely on their works, they world will do so. And once that occurs, the responsibility is all on the software companies to meet the expectations they built in people!
It's mad that this industry works so hard to claim the trust of millions of people, then shirks it as soon as it's convenient.
> But if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
In my direct experience, this isn't true if you're running something even vaguely mission-critical for your customers. Your customer's workers just know that they can't do their job for the day, and your customer's management just knows that the solution they shepherded through their organization is failing.
It's really quite funny, many of the ACTUALLY vital systems to running the world as we know it are running off of very different softwares. Cloudflare appears to have a much higher % of non vital systems running on it than say something like akamai.
If akamai went down i have a feeling you'd see a whole lot more real life chaos.
i also find the sentiment of "well we use a third party so blame them" completely baffeling.
if you run anything even remotely mission critical, not having a plan B which is executable and of which you are in control (and a plan C) will make you look completely incompetent.
There are very, very few events which some people who run mission critical systems accept as force majeur. Most of those are of the scale "national emergency" or worse.
>There are very, very few events which some people who run mission critical systems accept as force majeur. Most of those are of the scale "national emergency" or worse.
And why should anyone be surprised? It's been about 80 years since "The buck stops here."[0] had any real relevance. And more's the pity.
100% this. While in my professional capacity I'm all in for reliability and redundancy, as an individual, I quite like these situations when it's obvious that I won't be getting any work done and it's out of my control, so I can go run some errands to or read a book, or just finish early.
Which "user" are you referring to? Cloudflare users or end product users?
End product users have no power, they can complain to support and maybe get a free month of service, but the 0.1% of customers that do that aren't going to turn the tide and have anything change.
Engineering teams using these services also get "covered" by them - they can finger point and say "everyone else was down too."
Admittedly when I wrote that I was thinking about the recent AWS outage. Anecdotally, I asked friends and family about their experience and they assumed the internet was down. Almost everything at my work runs on Google cloud so we were still running but we observed a notable dip in traffic during the outage all the same.
> it is still bad
No doubt. But there’s a calculation to make, is it bad enough to spend the extra money on mitigations, to hire extra devops folks to manage it all… and in the majority of end user facing cases the answer is no, it isn’t.
Where I've worked and we've been in the cloud I've always promoted just running in one AZ, I run my own things in one Hetzner DC (hel1). I've done hybrid cloud as well and in that case we only have one AZ for the on-premise stuff anyways (plus offsite backup)
That one time when an AZ goes down and your infra successfully fails over to the other two isn't worth it for a lot of my scale companies, ops consultants seem to be chasing high cloud spend to justify their own high cost. I also factor in that I live in Sweden where most infrastructure outages are exceptionally rare.
Ofc it depends on what kind of company you are and what you're providing.
Eh? It's because they are offering a service too good to refuse.
The internet this day is fucking dangerous and murderous as hell. We need Cloudflare just to keep services up due to the deluge of AI data scrapers and other garbage.
More like "don't have choice". It's not like service provider gonna go to competition, because before you switch, it will be back.
Frankly it's a blessing, always being able to blame the cloud that management forced company to migrate to be "cheaper" (which half of the time turns out to be false anyway)
> It also reduces your incentive to change, if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else. Even if your web site is up they’ll assume it isn’t.
I agree. When people talk about the enshittification of the internet, Cloudflare plays a significant role.
Many reasons but DDoS protection has massive network effects. The more customers you have (and therefore bandwidth provision) the easier it is to hold up against a DDoS, as DDoS are targeting just one (usually) customer.
So there are massive economies of scale. Small CDN with (say) 10,000 customers and 10mbit/sec per customer can handle 100gbit/s DDoS (way too simplistic, but hopefully you get the idea) - way too small.
If you have the same traffic provisioned on average per customer and have 1 million customers, you can handle a DDoS 100x the size.
Only way to compete with this is to massively overprovision bandwidth per customer (which is expensive, as those customers won't pay more just for you to have more redundancy because you are smaller).
In a way (like many things in infrastructure) CDNs are natural monopolies. The bigger you get -> the more bandwidth and PoP you can have -> more attractive to more customers (this repeats over and over).
It was probably very astute of Cloudflare to realise that offering such a generous free plan was a key step in this.
In a CDN, customers consume bandwidth; they do not contribute it. If Cloudflare adds 1 million free customers, they do not magically acquire 1 million extra pipes to the internet backbone. They acquire 1 million new liabilities that require more infrastructure investment.
All you are doing is echoing their pitch book. Of course they want to skim their share of the pie.
I imagine every single customer is provisioned based on some peak expected typical traffic and that's what they base their capital investment in bandwidth on.
However most customers are rarely at their peak, this gives you tremendous spare capacity to use to eat DDoS attacks, assuming that the attacks are uncorrelated. This gives you huge amounts of capacity that's frequently doing nothing. Cloudflare advertise this spare capacity as "DDoS protection."
I suppose in theory it might be possible to massively optimise utilisation of your links, but that would be at the cost of DDoS protection and might not improve your margin very meaningfully, especially is customers care a lot about being online.
> In a CDN, customers consume bandwidth; they do not contribute it
They contribute money which buys infrastructure.
> If Cloudflare adds 1 million free customers,
Is the free tier really customers? Regardless most of them are small that it doesn't cost cloudflare much anyways. The infrastructure is already there anyways. Its worth it to them for the good will it generates which leads to future paying customers. It probably also gives them visibility into what is good vs bad traffic.
1 million small sites could very well cost less to cloudflare than 1 big site.
OP is saying it's cheaper overall for a 10 million customer company to add infrastructure for 1 million more than it is for a 10,000 customer company to add infrastructure for 1000 more people.
If you're looking at this as a "share of the pie", it's probably not going to make sense. The industry is not zero sum.
You aren't understanding economy of scale, and peak to average ratios.
The same reason I use cloud compute -- elastic infrastructure because I can't afford the peaks -- is the same reason large service providers "work".
It's funny how we always focus on Cloudflare, but all cloud providers have this same concentration downside. I think it's because Cloudflare loves to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
The "economies of scale" defense of Cloudflare ignores a fundamental reality: 23.8 million websites run on Cloudflare's free tier versus only 210,000 paying customers or so. Free users are not a strategic asset. They are an uncompensated cost, full stop. Cloudflare doesn't absorb this loss out of altruism; they monetize it by building AI bot-detection systems, charging for bot mitigation, and extracting threat intelligence data. Today's outage was caused by a bug in Cloudflare's service to combat bots.
That's AI bots, BTW. Bots like Playwright or Crawl4AI, which provide a useful service to individuals using agentic AI. Cloudflare is hostile to these types of users, even though they likely cost websites nothing to support well.
The "scale saves money" argument commits a critical error: it counts only the benefits of concentration while externally distributing the costs.
Yes, economies of scale exist. But Cloudflare's scale creates catastrophic systemic risk that individual companies using cloud compute never would. An estimated $5-15 billion was lost for every hour of the outage according to Tom's Guide. That cost didn't disappear. It was transferred to millions of websites, businesses, and users who had zero choice in the matter.
Again, corporations shitting on free users. It's a bad habit and a dark pattern.
Even worse, were you hoping to call an Uber this morning for your $5K vacation? Good luck.
This is worse than pure economic inefficiency. Cloudflare operates as an authorized man-in-the-middle to 20% of the internet, decrypting and inspecting traffic flows. When their systems fail, not due to attacks, but to internal bugs in their monetization systems, they don't just lose uptime.
They create a security vulnerability where encrypted connections briefly lose their encryption guarantee. They've done this before (Cloudbleed), and they'll do it again. Stop pretending to have rational arguments with irrational future outcomes.
The deeper problem: compute, storage, and networking are cheap. The "we need Cloudflare's scale for DDoS protection" argument is a circular justification for the very concentration that makes DDoS attractive in the first place. In a fragmented internet with 10 CDNs, a successful DDoS on one affects 10% of users. In a Cloudflare-dependent internet, a DDoS, or a bug, affects 50%, if Cloudflare is unable to mitigate (or DDoSs themselves).
Cloudflare has inserted themselves as an unremovable chokepoint. Their business model depends on staying that chokepoint. Their argument for why they must stay a chokepoint is self-reinforcing. And every outage proves the model is rotten.
hang on, you're reading some kind of cloudflare advocacy in my post. apologies if i implied that. i don't like to come off as a crank is all. IMO cloudflare is an evil that needs to be defeated. i'm just explaining how their business model "works" and why massive economy of scale matters, to support the GP poster.
i don't even think they are evil because of the concentration of power, that's just a problematic issue. the evil part is they convince themselves they aren't the bad guys. that they are saving us from ourselves. that the things they do are net positives, or even absolute positives. like the whole "let's defend the internet from AI crawlers" position they appointed themselves sheriff on, that i think you're referencing. it's an extremely dangerous position we've allowed them to occupy.
> they monetize it
yes, and they can't do this without the scale.
> scale saves money
any company, uber for example, can design their infra to not rely on a sole provider. but why? their customers aren't going to leave in droves when a pretty reliable provider has the occasional hiccup. so it's not worth the cost, so why shouldn't they externalize it? uber isn't in business to make the internet a better place. so yes, scale does save money. you're arguing something at a higher principle than how architectural decisions are made.
i'm not defending economy of scale as a necessary evil. i'm just backing up that it's how cloudflare is built, and that it is in fact useful to customers.
In my opinion, DDoS is possible only because there is no network protocol for a host to control traffic filtering on upstream providers (deny traffic from certain subnets or countries). In this case everybody would prefer write their own systems rather than rely on a harmful monopoly.
The recent Azure DDoS used 500k botnet IPs. These will have been widely distributed across subnets and countries, so your blocking approach would not have been an effective mitigation.
Identifying and dynamically blocking the 500k offending IPs would certainly be possible technically -- 500k /32s is not a hard filtering problem -- but I seriously question the operational ability of internet providers to perform such granular blocking in real-time against dynamic targets.
I also have concerns that automated blocking protocols would be widely abused by bad actors who are able to engineer their way into the network at a carrier level (i.e. certain governments).
Is this really true? What device in the network are you loading that filter into? Is it even capable of handling the packet throughput of that many clients while also handling such a large block list?
But this is not one subnet. It is a large number of IPs distributed across a bunch of providers, and handled possibly by dozens if not hundreds of routers along the way. Each of these routers won't have trouble blocking a dozen or two IPs that would be currently involved in a DDoS attack.
But this would require a service like DNSBL / RBL which email providers use. Mutually trusting big players would exchange lists of IPs currently involved in DDoS attacks, and block them way downstream in their networks, a few hops from the originating machines. They could even notify the affected customers.
But this would require a lot of work to build, and a serious amount of care to operate correctly and efficiently. ISPs don't seem to have a monetary incentive to do that.
It also completely overlooks the fact that some of the traffic has spoofed source IP addresses and a bad actor could use automated black holing to knock a legitimate site offline.
That already exists… that's part of cloudflare and other vendors mitigation strategy. There’s absolutely no chance ISPs are going to extend that functionality to random individuals on the internet.
What traffic would you request the upstream providers to block if getting hit by Aisuru? Considering the botnet consists of residential routers, those are the same networks your users will be originating from. Sure, in best case, if your site is very regional, you can just block all traffic outside your country - but most services don't have this luxury.
Blocking individual IP addresses? Sure, but consider that before your service detects enough anomalous traffic from one particular IP and is able to send the request to block upstream, your service will already be down from the aggregate traffic. Even a "slow" ddos with <10 packets per second from one source is enough to saturate your 10Gbps link if the attacker has a million machines to originate traffic from.
In many cases the infected devices are in developing countries where none of your customers is. Many sites are regional, for example, a medium business operating within one country, or even city.
And even if the attack comes from your country, it is better to block part of the customers and figure out what to do next rather than have your site down.
Could it not be argued that ISPs should be forced to block users with vulnerable devices?
They have all the data on what CPE a user has, can send a letter and email with a deadline, and cut them off after it expires and the router has not been updated/is still exposed to the wide internet.
My dad’s small town ISP called him to say his household connection recently started saturating the link 24/7 and to look into whether a device had been compromised.
(Turns out some raspi reseller shipped a product with empty uname/password)
While a cute story, how do you scale that? And what about all the users that would be incapable of troubleshooting it, like if their laptop, roku, or smart lightbulb were compromised? They just lose internet?
And what about a botnet that doesn’t saturate your connection, how does your ISP even know? They get full access to your traffic for heuristics? What if it’s just one curl request per N seconds?
> While a cute story, how do you scale that? And what about all the users that would be incapable of troubleshooting it, like if their laptop, roku, or smart lightbulb were compromised? They just lose internet?
Uh, yes. Exactly and plainly that. We also go and suspend people's driver licenses or at the very least seriously fine them if they misbehave on the road, including driving around with unsafe cars.
Access to the Internet should be a privilege, not a right. Maybe the resulting anger from widespread crackdowns would be enough of a push for legislators to demand better security from device vendors.
> And what about a botnet that doesn’t saturate your connection, how does your ISP even know?
In ye olde days providers had (to have to) abuse@ mailboxes. Credible evidence of malicious behavior reported to these did lead to customers getting told to clean up shop or else.
Xfinity did exactly this to me a few years ago. I wasn't compromised but tried running a blockchain node on my machine. The connection to the whole house was blocked off until I stopped it.
> here is no network protocol for a host to control traffic filtering on upstream providers (deny traffic from certain subnets or countries).
There is no network protocol per se, but there is commercial solutions like fortinet that can block countries iirc, but to note that it's only ip range based so it's not worth a lot
Yeah, I went to HN after the third web page didn't work. I am not just worried about the single point of failure, I am much more worried about this centralization eventually shaping the future standards of the web and making it de facto impossible to self-host anything.
Well that and the fact that when 99% goes through a central party, then that central party will be very interesting for authoritarian governments to apply sweeping censorship rules to.
It is already nearly impossible/very expensive in my country to be able to get a public IP address (Even IPv6) which you could host on. World is heavily moving towards centrally dependant on these big Cloud providers.
What part of the world has any ipv6 limitations? In the USA An ISP will give you a /48 from their /32 if you have any colo arrangement without even a blink. That gives you 2^16 networks with essentially infinite number of hosts on each network. Zero additional charge.
It is not as bad as Cloudflare or AWS because certificates will not expire the instant there is an outage, but considers that:
- It serves about 2/3 of all websites
- TLS is becoming more and more critical over time. If certificates fail, the web may as well be down
- Certificate lifetimes are becoming shorter and shorter, now 90 days, but Let's Encrypt is now considering 6 days, with 47 days being planned as a minimum
- An outage is one thing, but should a compromise happen, that would be even more catastrophic
Let's Encrypt is a good guy now, but remember that Google used to be a good guy in the 2000s too!
(Disclaimer: I am tech lead of Let's Encrypt software engineering)
I'm also concerned about LE being a single point of failure for the internet! I really wish there were other free and open CAs out there. Our goal is to encrypt the web, not to perpetuate ourselves.
That said, I'm not sure the line of reasoning here really holds up? There's a big difference between this three-hour outage and the multi-day outage that would be necessary to prevent certificate renewal, even with 6-day certs. And there's an even bigger difference between this sort of network disruption and the kind of compromise that would be necessary to take LE out permanently.
So while yes, I share your fear about the internet-wide impact of total Let's Encrypt collapse, I don't think that these situations are particularly analogous.
Agree, I’ve thought about this one too. The history of SSL/TLS certs is pretty hacky anyway in my opinion. The main problem they are solving really should have been solved at the network layer with ubiquitous IPsec and key distribution via DNS since most users just blindly trust whatever root CAs ship with their browser or OS, and the ecosystem has been full of implementation and operational issues.
Let’s Encrypt is great at making the existing system less painful, and there are a few alternatives like ZeroSSL, but all of this automation is basically a pile of workarounds on top of a fundamentally inappropriate design.
There's not really a way around the initial trust problem with consumer oriented certs though. Yours could reduce the number of initially trusted down to one I think but not any further.
its a shame DANE never took off.
If we actually got around to running a trusted DNSSEC based DNS system and allowed clients to create certificates thanks to DANE, we would be in a far more resilient setup compared to what we are now.
But DNSSEC was hard according to some, and now we are running a massive SPOF in terms of TLS certificates.
It didn't "not take off" --- it didn't work. You couldn't run it on the actual Internet with actual users, at least not without having a fallback path that attackers could trigger that meant DANE was really just yet another CA, only this one you can't detect misbehavior or kill it when it does misbehave.
Mostly since the AWS craze started a decade ago, developers have gone away from Dedicated servers (which are actually cheaper, go figure), which is causing all this mess.
It's genuinely insane that many companies are designing a great amount of fallbacks... on the software level but almost none is thought on the hardware/infrastructure level, common-sense dictate that you should never host everything on a single provider.
I tried as hard as I could to stay self hosted (and my backend is, still), but getting constant DDoS attacks and not having the time to deal with fighting them 2-3x a month was what ultimately forced me to Cloudflare. It's still worse than before even with their layers of protection, and now I get to watch my site be down a while, with no ability to switch DNS to point back to my own proxy layer, since CF is down :/
This is wild. Was your website somehow controversial? Ive been running many different websites for over 30+ years now, and have never been the target of a DDOS. The closest I’ve seen was when one website had a blind time based sql injection vulnerability and the attacker was abusing it, all the SLEEP() injected into the database brought the server to a crawl. But that’s just one attacker from a handful of IPs, hardly what i would call a DDOS.
I made the mistake of telling people it was hosted on a Pi cluster in a YouTube video a couple years ago, and asked nobody to try DDoSing it. I was a bit more naive thinking the YouTube viewer community was more like HN where people may joke about it, but nobody would actually do it.
I was wrong, and ever since I've dealt with a targeted attack (which was evolving as I added more CF firewall rules). At this point it's taken care of, but only because I have most things completely blocked at the CF firewall layer.
Until I changed job recently, I spent the past 8 years working in an area of tech that many people on places like HN and Reddit think that the work is a horrific waste of effort (DRM and content security for a streaming company).
The idea that if companies like my former employer would stop doing DRM their audience would embrace it is rife idealism. But based on bitter experience so enough people will do bad things just for the lulz that you need to cover your ass.
My home lab will never have an open port, I'll always put things behind a CDN or zero trust system, even then...
FWIW, it's worthwhile just for educational reasons to look at abuseipdb.com quite revealing.
It wasn't really a comment on the tech of DRM but of the business threats that require its use.
That being said, streaming content security is more than just DRM and DRM is more than just copy protection. There's a whole suite of tools inside DRM systems to manage content access at different levels and rulesets that can be applied for different situations. It's still fundamentally controlling an encrypted bitstream however. But I've implemented a great deal more than just DRM in order to build a better content security platform. Transit level controls, advanced token schemes, visible/invisible watermarking, threat/intrusion detection and abuse detection, there's quite a bit that can be implemented.
Jeff the reason why I think is that youtube community is more main-stream and I would consider you to be a really nice youtuber but even that might attract some bad faith actors just because of how main-stream youtube is as well compared to HN which is more niche-overall
(also congrats on 1 million subscribers but I know you must be tired of listening it but have a nice day jeff! Your videos are awesome!)
When I was younger and living in military dorms, I put a old throw away laptop hosting a simple website via Apache on the internet. Every time I checked the log it'd be full of so many random, wild spurts of attacks (granted I had basically 0 legit traffic).
I think people sometimes mistake legitimate traffic spikes for DDOS attacks. My blog has the former, but no site I have ever hosted has seen the latter.
With the state of constant attack from AI scrapers and DDOS bots, you pretty much need to have a CDN from someone now, if you have a serious business service. The poor guys with single prem boxes with static HTML can /maybe/ weather some of this storm alone but not everything.
This is the sad reality behind it. My websites would be constantly down because of AI scrapers. If anyone knows a good alternative, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg I am very open to hear!
I self hosted on one of the company’s servers back in the late 90s. Hard drive crashes (and a hack once, through an Apache bug) had our services (http, pop, smtp, nfs, smb, etc ) down for at least 2-3 days (full reinstall, reconfiguration, etc).
Then, with regular VPSs I also had systems down for 1-2 days. Just last week the company that hosts NextCloud for us was down the whole weekend (from Friday evening) and we couldn’t get their attention until Monday.
So far these huge outages that last 2-5 hours are still lower impact for me, and require me to take less action.
I like the idea of having my own rack in a data center somewhere (or sharing the rack, whatever) but even a tiny cost is still more than free. And even then, that data center will also have outages, with none of the benefits of a Cloudflare Pages, GitHub Pages, etc.
> developers have gone away from Dedicated servers (which are actually cheaper, go figure)
It depends on how you calculate your cost. If you only include the physical infrastructure having a dedicated server is cheaper. But by having some dedicated server you loose a lot of flexibility. Needs more resources? Just scale up your ec2, and with a dedicated server there is a lot more work involved.
Do you want a 'production-ready' database? With AWS you can just click a few buttons and have a RDS ready to use. To roll out your own PG installation you need someone with a lot of knowledge(how to configure replication? backups? updates? ...).
So if you include salaries in the calculation the result changes a lot. And even if you already have some experts in your payroll by putting them to work in deploying a PG instance you won't be able to use them to build other things that may generate more value to you business than the premium you pay to AWS.
Cloud-Hoster are that hardware-fallback. They started with offering better redundancy and scaling than your homemade breadbox. But it seems they lost something along the way and now we have this.
Maintainance cost is the main issue for on-prem infra, nowadays add things like DDOS protection and/or scraping protection, which can require dedicated team or for your company to rely on some library or open source project that is not guaranteed to be maintained forever (unless you give them support, which i believe in)... Yeah I can understand why companies shift off of on-prem nowadays
... dedis are cheaper if you are rightsized. If you are wrongsize they just plain crash and you may or may not be able to afford the upgrade.
I was at Softlayer before I was at AWS and what catalyzed the move was the time I needed to add another hard drive to a system and somehow they screwed it up. I couldn't put a trouble ticket it to get it fixed because my database record in their trouble ticket system was corrupted. The next day I moved my stuff to AWS and the day after that they had a top sales guy talk to me to try to get me to stay but it was too late.
Technically, multi-node cluster with failover (or full on active-active) will have far higher uptime than just a single node.
Practically, to get the multi-node cluster (for any non trivial workload) to work right, reliably, fail-over in every case etc. is far more work, far more code (that can have more bugs), and even if you do everything right and test what you can, unexpected stuff can still kill it. Like recently we had uncorrectable memory error which just happened to hit the ceph daemon just right that one of the OSDs misbehaved and bogged down entire cluster...
You jest, but this actually does exist. Multiple CDNs sell multi-CDN load balancing (divide traffic between 2+ CDNs per variously-complicated specifications, with failover) as a value add feature, and IIRC there is at least one company for which this is the marquee feature. It's also relatively doable in-house as these things go.
As someone who has worked for a CDN for over a decade, this is what most big customers do. Under normal circumstances, they send portions of traffic to different CDNs, usually based on cost (and or performance in various regions). When an issue happens, they will pull traffic from the problem CDN.
Of course, if a big incident happens for a big CDN, there might not be enough latent capacity in the other CDNs to take all the traffic. CDNs are a cutthroat business, with small margins, so there usually isn’t a TON of unused capacity laying around.
This might sound crazy as a software engineer, but I actually like the occasional "snow day" where everything goes down. It's healthy for us to all disconnect from the internet for a bit. The centralization unintentionally helps facilitate that. At least, that's my glass half full perspective.
I can understand that sentiment. Just don't lose sight of the impact it can have on every day people. My wife and I own a small theatre and we sell tickets through Eventbrite. It's not my full time job but it is hers. Eventbrite sent out an email this morning letting us know that they are impacted by the outage. Our event page appears to be working but I do wonder if it's impacting ticket sales for this weekend's shows.
So while us in tech might like a "snow day", there are millions of small businesses and people trying to go about their day to day lives who get cut off because of someone else's fuck-ups when this happens.
Absolutely solid point; there are a couple of apps I use daily for productivity, chores, even for alarm scheduling, that with the free versions, the ads wouldn’t load so I couldn’t use them but some of them were updated already. Made me realize I forgot that we’re kind of like cyborgs relying on technology that’s integrated so deeply into our lives that all it takes is an EMP blast like a monopolistic service going down to bring -us- down until we take a breath and learn how to walk again. Wild time.
> This might sound crazy as a software engineer, but I actually like the occasional "snow day" where everything goes down
As as software engineer, I get it. as a CTO, I spent this morning triaging with my devops ai(actual Indian) to find some workaround (we found one) while our CEO was doing damage control with customers (non technical field) who were angry that we were down and they were losing business by the minute.
sometimes I miss not having a direct stake in the success of the business.
I'm guessing you're employed and your salary is guaranteed regardless. Would you have the same outlook if you were the self-employed founder of an online business and every minute of outage was costing you money?
If you're an event organizer whose big event is in two days, for example, then every minute your website's down translates to people not paying to attend your paid event. Bonus points because as event managers know, people often wait until 2 days before the event to subscribe for good. Bonus points if you knew this and therefore ran a costly email campaign just before the outage, a campaign that is now sitting at a near-0% click rate.
For businesses whose profit margins are already slim, which is most traditional businesses trading online, making less money than they usually would will put them into the red, and even for those that are still in profit, making less money than you usually would means you have less money to pay the expenses that you usually do, expenses that are predicated on you making a certain amount of revenue.
You're living in a bubble. I know enough people who live paycheck to paycheck and always have exactly $0 in their pocket before the end of the month. It's pretty normal in some parts of the world, maybe even most of them.
That's a weirdly flippant response to what's a serious issue, but I'll give it the courtesy of a reply anyway - maybe not, but a business not making enough profit might go under, or they might only have to fire someone to prevent that from happening.
any brick and mortar store can have an outage, sometimes multiple days when they repave the streets or have a utility outage. You are white-knighting for imaginary victims of imaginary tragedies. thats weird
You can make any leaps of logic into chaos theory. hell, maybe a fully-occupied orphanage will burn down because of some percolation of events that wouldn't have occurred had CloudFlare kept running. Maybe the next genocidal leader was conceived at the precise moment because CloudFlare was down and his parents used the time to make whoopie?
It costs a lot of money to move, you don't know if the alternative will be any better, and if it affects a lot of companies then it's nobody's fault. "Nobody ever got fired for buying Cloudflare/AWS" as they say.
It's just that customers are more understanding when they see their Netflix not working either otherwise they just think you're less professional. Try talking to customers after an outage and you will see.
it's not just that, it's the creation of a sorta status symbol, or at least of symbol of normality.
there was a point (maybe still) where not having a netflix subscription was seen as 'strange'.
if that's the case in your social circles -- and these kind of social things bother you -- you're not going to cancel the subscription due to bad service until it becomes a socially accepted norm.
except, yknow, where peoples lives and livelihoods depend on access to information/being able to do things on exact time. aws and cloudflare are disqualifying themselves from hospitals and military and whatnot.
For example, Cloudflare employees make money on promises to mitigate such attacks, but then can’t guarantee they will, and take all their customers down at once. It’s a shared pain model.
How did we get to a place where Cloudflare being down means we see an outage page, but on that page it tells us explicitly that the host we're trying to connect to is up, and it's just a Cloudflare problem.
If it can tell us that the host is up, surely it can just bypass itself to route traffic.
People use CloudFlare because it's a "free" way for most sites to not get exploited (WAF) or DDoSed (CDN/proxy) regularly. A DDoS can cost quite a bit more than a day of downtime, even just a thundering herd of legitimate users can explode an egress bill.
It sucks there's not more competition in this space but CloudFlare isn't widely used for no reason.
AWS also solves real problems people have. Maintaining infrastructure is expensive as is hardware service and maintenance. Redundancy is even harder and more expensive. You can run a fairly inexpensive and performant system on AWS for years for the cost of a single co-located server.
It's not only centralization in the sense your website will be down if they are down but it is also a centralized MITM proxy. If you transfer sensitive data like chats over cloudflare-"protected" endpoints, you also allow CF to transparently read and analyze it in plain-text. It must be very easy for state agencies to spy on the internet nowadays, they woukd just ask CF to redirect traffic to them.
Because it's better to have a really convenient and cheap service that works 99% of the time, than a resilient that is more expensive or more cumbersome to use.
It's like github vs whatever else you can do with git that is truly decentralized. The centralization has such massive benefits that I'm very happy to pay the price of "when it's down I can't work".
Most developers don't care to know how the underlying infrastructure works (or why) and so they take whatever the public consensus is re: infra as a statement of fact (for the better part of the last 15 years or so that was "just use the cloud"). A shocking amount of technical decisions are socially, not technically enforced.
This topic is raised every time there is an outage with cloudflare and the truth of the matter is, they offer an incredible service, there is not a bit enough competition to deal with it. By definition their services are so good BECAUSE their adoption rate is so high.
It's very frustrating of course, and it's the nature of the beast.
Because DDoS is a fact of life (and even if you aren't targeted by DDoS, the bot traffic probing you to see if you can be made part of the botnet is enough to take down a cheap $5 VPS). So we have to ask - why? Personally, I don't accept the hand-wavy explanation that botnets are "just a bunch of hacked IoT devices". No, your smart lightbulb isn't taking down Reddit. I slightly believe the secondary explanation that it's a bunch of hacked home routers. We know that home routers are full of things like suspicious oopsie definitely-not-government backdoors.
Compliance. If you wanna sell your SAAS to big corpo, their compliance teams will feel you know what you're doing if they read AWS or Cloudflare on your architecture, even if you do not quite know what you're doing.
There is this tendency to phrase questions (or statements) as
"when did 'we' ".
These decision are made individually not centrally. There is no process in place (and most likely there will never be) that will be able to control and dictate if people decide one way of doing things is the best way to do it. Even assuming they understand everything or know of the pitfalls.
Even if you can control individually what you do for the site you operate (or are involved in) you won't have any control on parts of your site (or business) that you rely on where others use AWS or Cloudflare.
IMO, centralization is inevitable because the fundamental forces drive things in that direction. Clouds are useful for a variety of reasons (technical, time to market, economic), so developers want to use them. But clouds are expensive to build and operate, so there are only a few organizations with the budget and competency to do it well. So, as the market matures you end up with 3 to 5 major cloud operators per region, with another handful of smaller specialists. And that’s just the way it works. Fighting against that is to completely swim upstream with every market force in opposition.
I would be less worried if Cloudflare and AWS weren't involved in many more things than simply running DNS.
AWS - someone touches DynamoDB and it kills the DNS.
Cloudflare - someone touches functionality completely unrelated to DNS hosting and proxying and, naturally, it kills the DNS.
There is this critical infrastructure that just becomes one small part of a wider product offering, worked on by many hands, and this critical infrastructure gets taken down by what is essentially a side-effect.
It's a strong argument to move to providers that just do one thing and do it well.
Re: Cloudflare it is because developers actively pushed "just use Cloudflare" again and again and again.
It has been dead to me since the SSL cache vulnerability thing and the arrogance with which senior people expected others to solve their problems.
But consider how many people still do stupid things like use the default CDN offered by some third party library, or use google fonts directly; people are lazy and don't care.
We take the idea of the internet always being on for granted. Most people don’t understand the stack and assume that when sites go down it’s isolated, and although I agree with you, it’s just as much complacency and lack of oversight and enforcement delays in bureaucracy as it is centralization. But I guess that’s kind of the umbrella to those things… lol
Well the centralisation without rapid recovery and practices that provide substantial resiliency… that would be worrying.
But I dare say the folks at these organisations take these matters incredibly seriously and the centralisation problem is largely one of risk efficiency.
I think there is no excuse, however, to not have multi region on state, and pilot light architectures just in case.
A lot (and I mean a lot) of people in IT like centralization specifically because it’s hard to blame people for doing something that everyone else is doing.
This was always the case. There was always a "us-east" in some capacity, under Equinix, etc. Except it used to be the only "zone," which is why the internet is still so brittle despite having multiple zones. People need to build out support for different zones. Old habits die hard, I guess.
> How did we get to a place where either Cloudflare or AWS having an outage means a large part of the web going down?
As always, in the name of "security". When are we going to learn that anything done, either by the government or by a corporation, in the name of security is always bad for the average person?
It's weird to think about so bear with me. I don't mean this sardonically or misanthropically. But, it's "just the internet." It's just the internet. It dones't REALLY matter in a large enough macro view. It's JUST the internet.
It's because single points of traffic concentration are the most surveillable architecture, so FVEY et al economically reward with one hand those companies who would build the architecture they want to surveil with the other hand.
Currently at the public library and I can't use the customer inventory terminals to search for books. They're just a web browser interface to the public facing website, and it's hosted behind CF. Bananas.
Don't forget the CloudStrike outage: One company had a bug that brought down almost everything. Who would have thought there are so many single points of failure across the entire Internet.
For most services it's safer to host from behind Cloudflare, and Cloudflare is considered more highly available than a single IaaS or PaaS, at least in my headcanon.
The same reason we have centralization across the economy. Economies of scale is how you make a big business succesful, and once you are on top its hard to dislodge you.
Agreed. More worrying is that it appears standard practice or separation between domain and nameserver administration has been lost to one-stop-shop marketing.
Short-term economic forces, probably. Centralization is often cheaper in the near term. The cost of designing in single-point failure modes gets paid later.
And all of these outages happening not long after most of them dismissed a large amount of experienced staff while moving jobs offshore to save in labor costs.
I think some of the issues in the last outage actually affected multiple regions. IIRC internally some critical infrastructure for AWS depends on us-east-1 or at least it failed in a way that didn't allow failover.
5 mins. of thought to figure out why these services exist?
Dialogue about mitigations/solutions? Alternative services? High availability strategies?
Nah! It's free to complain.
Me personally, I'd say those companies do a phenomenal job by being a de facto backbone of the modern web. Also Cloudflare, in particular, gives me a lot of things for free.
It's not really. People are just very bad at putting the things around them into perspective.
Your power is provided by a power utility company. They usually serve an entire state, if not more than one (there are smaller ones too). That's "centralization" in that it's one company, and if they "go down", so do a lot of businesses. But actually it's not "centralized", in that 1) there are actually many different companies across the country/world, and 2) each company "decentralizes" most of its infrastructure to prevent massive outages.
And yes, power utilities have outages. But usually they are limited in scope and short-lived. They're so limited that most people don't notice when they happen, unless it's a giant weather system. Then if it's a (rare) large enough impact, people will say "we need to reform the power grid!". But later when they've calmed down, they realize that would be difficult to do without making things worse, and this event isn't common.
Large internet service providers like AWS, Cloudflare, etc, are basically internet utilities. Yes they are large, like power utilities. Yes they have outages, like power utilities. But the fact that a lot of the country uses them, isn't any worse than a lot of the country using a particular power company. And unlike the power companies, we're not really that dependent on internet service providers. You can't really change your power company; you can change an internet service provider.
Power didn't used to be as reliable as it is. Everything we have is incredibly new and modern. And as time has passed, we have learned how to deal with failures. Safety and reliability has increased throughout critical industries as we have learned to adapt to failures. But that doesn't mean there won't be failures, or that we can avoid them all.
We also have the freedom to architect our technology to work around outages. All the outages you have heard about recently could be worked around, if the people who built on them had tried:
- CDN goes down? Most people don't absolutely need a CDN. Point your DNS at your origins until the CDN comes back. (And obviously, your DNS provider shouldn't be the same as your CDN...)
- The control plane goes down on dynamic cloud APIs? Enable a "limp mode" that persists existing infrastructure to serve your core needs. You should be able to service most (if not all) of your business needs without constantly calling a control plane.
- An AZ or region goes down? Use your disaster recovery plan: deploy infrastructure-as-code into another region or AZ. Destroy it when the az/region comes back.
...and all of that just to avoid a few hours of downtime per year? It's likely cheaper to just take the downtime. But that doesn't stop people from piling on when things go wrong, questioning whether the existence of a utility is a good idea.
I have Cloudflare running in production and it is affecting us right now. But at least I know what is going on and how I can mitigate (e.g. disable Cloudflare as a proxy if it keeps affecting our services at skeeled).
Interestingly, also noticing that websites that use Cloudflare Challenge (aka "I'm not a Robot") are also throwing exceptions with a message as "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed" - even though it's just responding with an HTTP/500.
The state of error handling in general is woeful, they do anything to avoid admitting they're at fault so the negative screenshots don't end up on social media.
Blame the user or just leave them at an infinite spinning circle of death.
I check the network tab and find the backend is actually returning a reasonable error but the frontend just hides it.
Most recent one was a form saying my email was already in use, when the actual backend error returned was that the password was too long.
I think the site (front-end) thinks you have blocked the domain through DNS or an extension; and thus suggests you unblock it. It is unthinkable that Cloudflare captchas could go down /s.
I’d rather mitigate a DDoS attack on my own servers than deal with Cloudflare. Having to prove you’re human is the second-worst thing on my list, right after accepting cookies. Those two things alone have made browsing the web a worse experience than it was in the late 90s or early 2000s.
There's worse than having to prove (over and over and over again) that you are human: having your IP just completely blocked by Cloudflare zealous bot-filtering (and I use a plain mass market ISP in a developed country and not some shady network)
Alright kids, breathe...a DDoS attack isn't the end of the world, it's just the internet throwing a tantrum. If you really don't want to use a fancy protection provider, you can still act like a grown-up: get your datacenter to filter trash at the edge, announce a more specific prefix with BGP so you can shift traffic, drop junk with strict ACLs, and turn on basic rate limiting so bots get bored. You can also tune your kernel so it doesn't faint at SYN storms, and if the firehose gets too big, pop out a more specific BGP prefix from a backup path or secondary router so you can pull production away from the burning IP.
Very quickly you'll find this doesn't work. Your DC will just null your IP. You'll switch to a new one and the attackers will too, the DC will null that one. You won't win at this game unless you're a very sizeable organization or are just willing to wait the attackers out, they will get bored eventually.
> pop out a more specific BGP prefix from a backup path or secondary router so you can pull production away from the burning IP.
This won't help against carpet bombing.
The only workable solution for enterprises is a combination of on-prem and cloud mitigation. Cloud to get all the big swaths of mitigation and to keep your pipe flowing, and on-prem to mitigate specific attack vectors like state exhaustion.
Worrying about a DDoS on your tiny setup is like a brand-new dev stressing over how they'll handle a billion requests per second...cute, but not exactly a real-world problem for 99.99% of you. It's one of those internet boogeyman myths people love to panic about.
As much as this situation sucks, how do you plan to "mitigate a DDoS attack on my own servers". The reason I use Cloudflare is to use it as a proxy especially for DDOS attacks if they do occur. Right now, our services are down and we are getting tons of customer support tickets (like everyone else) but it is a lot easier to explain the the whole world is down vs its just us.
> During our attempts to remediate, we have disabled WARP [their VPN service] access in London. Users in London trying to access the Internet via WARP will see a failure to connect.
Posted 4 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 13:04 UTC
> We have made changes that have allowed Cloudflare Access [their 'zero-trust network access solution'] and WARP to recover. Error levels for Access and WARP users have returned to pre-incident rates.
> We have re-enabled WARP access in London.
> We are continuing to work towards restoring other services.
> Posted 12 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 13:13 UTC
Now I'm really suspicious that they were attacked...
Someone running cloudflared accidentally advertising a critical route into their Warp namespace and somehow disrupting routes for internal Cloudflare services doesn't seem too far fetched.
>A spokesperson for Cloudflare said: “We saw a spike in unusual traffic to one of Cloudflare’s services beginning at 11.20am. That caused some traffic passing through Cloudflare’s network to experience errors. While most traffic for most services continued to flow as normal, there were elevated errors across multiple Cloudflare services.
>“We do not yet know the cause of the spike in unusual traffic. We are all hands on deck to make sure all traffic is served without errors. After that, we will turn our attention to investigating the cause of the unusual spike in traffic.”
"Unusual spike of traffic" can just be errant misconfiguration that causes traffic spikes just from TCP retries or the like. Jumping to "cyber attack" is eating up Hollywood drama.
In most cases, it's just cloud services eating shit from a bug.
I’ve written before on HN about when my employer hired several ex-FAANG people to manage all things cloud in our company.
Whenever there was an outage they would put up a fight against anyone wanting to update the status page to show the outage. They had so many excuses and reasons not to.
Eventually we figured out that they were planning to use the uptime figures for requesting raises and promos as they did at their FAANG employer, so anything that reduced that uptime number was to be avoided at all costs.
Are there companies that actually use their statuspage as a source of truth for uptime numbers?
I think it's way more common for companies to have a public status page, and then internal tooling that tracks the "real" uptime number. (E.g. Datadog monitors, New Relic monitoring, etc)
I don’t know, but I will say that this team that was hired into our company was so hyperfocused on any numbers they planned to use for performance reviews that it probably didn’t matter which service you chose to measure the website performance. They’d find a way to game it. If we had used the internal devops observability tools I bet they would have started pulling back logging and reducing severity levels as reported in the codebase.
It’s obviously not a problem at every company because there are many companies who will recognize these shenanigans and come down hard on them. However you could tell these guys could recognize any opportunity to game the numbers if they thought those numbers would come up at performance review time.
Ironically our CEO didn’t even look at those numbers. He used the site and remembered the recent outages.
It's because if you automate it, something could/would happen to the little script that defines "uptime," and if that goes down, suddenly you're in violation of your SLA and all of your customers start demanding refunds/credits/etc. when everything is running fine.
Or let's say your load balancer croaks, triggering a "down" status, but it's 3am, so a single server is handling traffic just fine? In short, defining "down" in an automated way is just exposing internal tooling unnecessarily and generates more false positives than negatives.
Lastly, if you are allowed 45 minutes of downtime per year and it takes you an hour to manually update the status page, you just bought yourself an extra hour to figure out how to fix the problem before you have to start issuing refunds/credits.
I found GitHub's old "how many visits to this status page have there been recently" graph on their status page to be an absurdly neat solution to this.
Requires zero insight into other infrastructure, absolutely minimal automation, but immediately gives you an idea whether it's down for just you or everybody. Sadly now deceased.
I like that https://discordstatus.com/ shows the API response times as well. There's times where Discord will seem to have issues, and those correlate very well with increased API response times usually.
Reddit Status used to show API response times way back in the day as well when I used to use the site, but they've really watered it down since then. Everything that goes there needs to be manually put in now AFAIK. Not to mention that one of the few sections is for "ads.reddit.com", classic.
Yeah, this is something people think is super easy to automate, and it is for the most basic implementation of something like a single test runner. The most basic implementation is prone to false positives, and as you say, breaking when the rest of your stuff breaks.
You can put your test runner on different infrastructure, and now you have a whole new class of false positives to deal with. And it costs you a bit more because you're probably paying someone for the different infra.
You can put several test runners on different infrastructure in different parts of the world. This increases your costs further. The only truly clear signals you get from this are when all are passing or all are failing. Any mixture of passes and fails has an opportunity for misinterpretation. Why is Sydney timing out while all the others are passing? Is that an issue with the test runner or its local infra, or is there an internet event happening (cable cut, BGP hijack, etc) beyond the local infra?
And thus nearly everyone has a human in the loop to interpret the test results and make a decision about whether to post, regardless of how far they've gone with automation.
They are manual AND political (depending on how big the company is). Because having a dashboard go to red usually has a bunch of project work behind it.
I know this is bad, and some people's livelihood and lives rely on critical infrastructure, but when these things happen, I sometimes think GOOD!, let's all just take a breather for a minute yeh? Go outside.
One of the things that i didnt like about cloudflare MITM as a service is their requirement if you want SSL/CDN that you must use their DNS.
Overconcentration of infra within one single pint of disruption with no easy outs when the stack tips over.
Sadly i dont see any changes or rethink to be more decentralised even after this outage.
Yeah they keep re-inforcing bad vendor lockin practices. id guess the number of free users surpass the paying ones , and situations like these leave them all unable to recover.
Interesting(unnerving?) to see a number of domain registrars that offer their own DNS services utilize at least some kind of Cloudflare service for at least their own web fronts. Did a check on 6 registrar sites I currently interact with and half were down(Namecheap/Spaceship, Name, Dynadot) and up(Porkbun, Gandi, GoDaddy).
I just considered moving from Namecheap to Porkbun as Namecheap is down, but Porkbun use Cloudflare for their CAPTCHA meaning I'm unable to signup and I assume log in as well, so also no good.
Only true if your audience doesn't require Edge distribution, also if your Origin can handle the increased load and security issues, also if you don't use any advanced features (routing, edge compute...).
Yes, and they come with different architectures, SLAs,... not so easy to pick one. Their features may not map 1:1, not so easy to implement a multi-edge solution.
If your site is only hosted on one server and it catches fire, you can swiftly reinstall on a new server and change the IP your domain is pointing to, too... Still a single point of failure.
Yes, everything in the world is a single point of failure and has always been, if we look at things that way. But if it can be remedied quickly, then it's not a huge concern.
If I had pointed my name servers somewhere else, then that of course would be the new single point of failure. You can't escape it, no matter how much hacker snark and down votes you have.
Just checked INWX from here in Germany. I was able to log in and get to my DNS records. Just if you should be looking for an alternative after all this.
Even if he blocked it by accident, that is not a reason to shout.
Shouting will not prevent errors, and you are only creating a hostile work environment where not acting is better than the risk of making a mistake and triggering an aggressive response from your part.
That's why I run my server on 7100 chips made for me by Sam Zeloof in his garage on a software stack hand coded by me, on copper I ran personally to everyone's house.
You are joking but working on making decentralization more viable would indeed be more healthy than throwing hands up and accepting Cloudflare as the only option.
There was an article on HN a few days back about how companies like this are influencing the overall freedom of the web (I missed the source) and their own way of doing things. Other examples of influence I see similarly are of Vercel, like with enterprise. Even a few days back, we saw AWS.
> Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available.
Things are back up (a second time) for me.
Cloudflare have updated their status page now to reflect the problems now. It doesn’t sound like they are confident the problem is fully fixed yet.
What would the Internet's architecture have to look like for DDOS'ing to be a thing of the past, and therefore Cloudflare to not be needed?
I know there are solutions like IPFS out there for doing distributed/decentralised static content distribution, but that seems like only part of the problem. There are obviously more types of operation that occur via the network -- e.g. transactions with single remote pieces of equipment etc, which by their nature cannot be decentralised.
Anyone know of research out there into changing the way that packet-routing/switching works so that 'DDOS' just isn't a thing? Of course I appreciate there are a lot of things to get right in that!
It's impossible to stop DDoS attacks because of the first "D".
If a botnet gets access through 500k IP addresses belonging to home users around the world, there's no way you could have prepared yourself ahead of time.
The only real solution is to drastically increase regulation around security updates for consumer hardware.
Maybe that's the case, but it seems like this conclusion is based on the current architecture of the internet. Maybe there are ways of changing it that mean these issues are not a thing!
It's not an architectural problem. It's a fundamental issue with trust and distributed systems. The same issues occur in physical spaces, like highways.
The core issue is that hackers can steal the "identity" of internet customers at scale, not that the internet allows unauthenticated traffic.
> The core issue is that hackers can steal the "identity" of internet customers at scale
That's on one end, right? There's also the other end: as a user connecting to the network, currently one is subscribing to receiving packets from literally everyone else on the internet.
> It's a fundamental issue with trust and distributed systems
We currently trust entities within the network to route packets as they are asked. The network can tolerate some level of bad actors within that, but there is still trust in the existing system. What if the things we trusted the network to do were to change slightly?
Why fridge need to have rights to initiate connection to something on internet ?
Why fridge need to even be reachable from the internet ?? You should have some AI agent for managing your "smart" home. At least it's how sci-fi movies/games show it, eg. Iron man or Starcraft II ;)
I was thinking of a reaction to a DDOS event, so those devices are flagged as being infected. You could prevent future attacks if those devices are ignored until they get fixed.
That is what ISPs do these days. Most botnet members don't end up spamming a lot of requests, usually just a few before they are blocked.
The issue with DDOS is specifically with the distributed nature of it. One single bot of a botnet is pretty harmless, it's the cohesive whole that's the problem.
To make botnets less efficient you need to find members before they do anything. Retroactively blocking them won't really help, you'll just end up cutting off internet for regular people, most of whom probably don't even know how to get their fridge off of their local network.
There's not really any easy fix for this. You could regulate it, and require a license to operate IoT devices with some registration requirement + fines if you don't keep them up to date. But even that will probably not solve the issue.
What would that look like? A network with built-in rate & connection limiting?
The closest thing I can think of is the Gemini protocol browser. It uses TOFU for authentication, which requires a human to initially validate every interaction.
Works for static content and databases, but I don't think it works for applications where there is by necessity only one destination that can't be replicated (e.g. a door lock).
I got several emails from some uptime monitors I setup due to failing checks on my website and funnily enough I cannot log into any of them.
BetterStack, InStatus and HetrixTools seemingly all use Cloudflare on their dashboards, which means I can't login but I keep getting "your website/API is down" emails.
Update: I also can't login to UptimeRobot and Pulsetic. Now, I am getting seriously concerned about the sheer degree of centralization we have for CDNs/login turnstiles on Cloudflare.
In the beginning I thought my IP fell on the wrong side of Cloudflare and thought I was being blocked from ~80% of the internet. I was starting to panic
I'd love to read an article describing the HN setup. Seems that they got a lot of things right - self registration, influx of people during outages and plenty others. Admins, if you see this, please write about your craft!
We handle ~2M requests per second and CF eliminates about ⅔ of those. We need CF or something like it. Multi edge is harder than it sounds at very large scale.
There are still alternatives like Bunny https://status.bunny.net/history (may not be for everyone, but I like to post the CF alternatives so it becomes ever so slightly less of a default)
Sadly, I can report that this has brought down 2 of the major Mastodon nodes in the United Kingdom.
Happily, the small ones that I also use are still going without anyone apparently even noticing. At least, the subject has yet to reach their local timelines at the time that I write this.
2 of the other major U.K. nodes are still up, too.
> However its number of monthly active users have only grown since 2020.
Like everywhere it is mostly bots.
Look at HN frontpage, there used to be 1-2 Twitter post per day. Now it is barely per week. End even those are usually just from two accounts (Karpathy and Carmack).
Trying to figure out if this observation was intended to frame it so that it's less|same|more scary. The effect is more, but it sounds like the intention was less.
Update - The team is continuing to focus on restoring service post-fix. We are mitigating several issues that remain post-deployment.
Nov 18, 2025 - 15:40 UTC
It's hard not to use Cloudflare at least for me: good products, "free" for small projects, and if Cloudflare is down no one will blame you since the internet is down.
Well, no. If they are unreliable to the point of being an outlier when compared to the alternatives then people will switch. At this stage they’re not an outlier.
Maybe not, but they are approaching it. I wouldn't use it for anything funded with my own cash, I no longer recommend it as a first choice, but I'm not suggesting it gets replaced yet. It's somewhat in the 'legacy tech' category now in terms of how I perceive it and deal with it.
> if Cloudflare is down no one will blame you since the internet is down.
But this is not really the case. When Azure/AWS were down, same as this one with Cloudflare: significant amount of web was down but most of it was not. It just makes more obvious which provider you use.
Think about this rationally. If Cloudflare doesn't fix it within reasonable time, you can just point to different name servers and have your problem fixed in minutes.
So why be on Cloudflare to start with? Well, if you have a more reliable way then there's no reason. If you have a less reliable way, then you're on average better off with Cloudflare.
Well I can't change my NS since it's on Cloudflare too but besides that my personal opinion was not about this outage in particular but more the default approach of some websites that don't need all this tech (yes I really was out of groceries)
> Is Cloudflare your domain registrar? In that case, yes I think you should think about being less dependent on them.
And why I should overthink my architecture now? If I had to manage redundant systems and keep track of circular dependencies I just could keep managing my infra the old way, no?
I'm being sarcastic here, obviously, but really one of the selling point for cloud back in the day it was "you don't have to care about those details". You just need to care about other details, now.
I am personally really happy with Cloudflare for domains, pages and dns, I don't run critical stuff but some websites are and they should not be lazy about it
There’s certainly a business case for “which nines” after the talk of n nines. You ideally want to be available when your competitor, for instance, is not.
It's the web-scrapers. I run a tiny little mom and pop website, and the bots were consistently using up all of my servers' resources. Cloudfare more or less instantly resolved it.
You mean you outsourced to Cloudflare the decision on who is allowed to view your website. That could be well-intentioned, but it's a risky thing to do, and I would not to outsource that decision. Especially as I wouldn't know who failed to get to my website as there is no way to appeal the decision.
As a side note, what does your site do that it's possible to use up all server resources? Computers are stupid fast these days. I find it's really difficult to build something that doesn't scale to at least multiple hundreds of requests per second.
I’ve been DDoS’d countless times running a small scale, uncontroversial SaaS. Without them I would’ve had countless downtime periods with really no other way to mitigate.
There's plenty of DDoS if you're dealing with people petty enough.
The VPS I use will nuke your instance if you run a game server. Not due to resource usage, but because it attracts DDoS like nothing else. Ban a teen for being an asshole and expect your service to be down for a week. And there isn't really Cloudflare for independent game servers. There's Steam Networking but it requires the developer to support it and of course Steam.
> And there isn't really Cloudflare for independent game servers
And yet game servers still work fine. Which answers this subthread's question ("how likely is it to get DDoSed if you don't have Cloudflare"), answer: not very likely, it happens once in a while at most.
Have you tried Anubis or similar tools? I've had similar issues with bot scraping of a forum taking all server resources, and using PoW challenge solved the problem.
I've always wondered: has there been any effort to implement a PoW challenge like that at a lower level? I.e., TCP but the handshake requires solving a challenge, otherwise the connection is just closed? It seems like something that could benefit from being invisible on the application layer.
I wrote the below to explain to our users what was happening, so apologies if the language is too simple for a HN reader.
- 0630, we switched our DNS to proxy through CF, starting the collection of data, and implemented basic bot protections
- Unfortunately whatever anti-bot magic they have isn't quite having the effect, even after two hours.
- 0830, I sign in and take a look at the analytics. It seems like <SITE NAME> is very popular in Vietnam, Brazil, and Indonesia.
- 0845, I make it so users from those countries have to pass a CF "challenge". This is similar to a CAPTCHA, but CF try to make it so there's no "choosing all the cars in an image" if they can help it.
- So far 0% of our Asian audience have passed a challenge.
I was arrested by Interpol in 2018 because of warrants issued by the NCA, DOJ, FBI, J-CAT, and several other agencies, all due to my involvement in running a DDoS-for-hire website. Honestly, anyone can bypass Cloudflare, and anyone that want to take your website down - will take it down. It's just that luckily for all of us most of the DDoS-4-hire websites are down nowadays but there are still many botnets out there that will get past basically any protection and you can get access to them for basically $5.
One minute, what? Can you elaborate on that. I have loads of questions. What exactly were you doing? What consequences did you face? How come you are talking about it?
Like? Aside from scanning DNS records (assuming the protected IP is in there somewhere) or scanning the entire IPv4 (assuming the server responds to non CloudFlare requests), I can't think of any. And both methods are simple to protect against.
No but because all of us were arrested in 2018 for running DDoS-4-hire services. Bypassing cloudflare is very easy and I still can fry any of your websites (if i wanted to, just like any other skid)
There are plenty of alternatives to protect against DDoSing, people like convenience though. “Nobody gets fired for choosing Microsoft/Cloudflare”. We have a culture problem
It's not super common, but common enough that I don't want to deal with it.
The other part is just how convenient it is with CF. Easy to configure, plenty of power and cheap compared to the other big ones. If they made their dashboard and permission-system better (no easy way to tell what a token can do last I checked), I'd be even more of a fan.
If Germany's Telekom was forced to peer on DE-CIX, I'd always use CF. Since they aren't and CF doesn't pay for peering, it's a hard choice for Germany but an easy one everywhere else.
Because of 2018 operation "Power OFF" but it's still pretty easy to take anything down.
Hetzner has the WEAKEST DDoS protection out of ANYTHING out there - Arbor sucks.
Send me your website url and I'll keep it down for DAYS and whenever you cry to hetzner I'll just fry it again, it's that easy and that's why they're the cheapest - because everyone ran away from them back then.
I run a few websites with moderate traffic (~900K daily page views total) on the same VPS and never had an issue with DDOS. Is this specific to some industries?
My small SaaS app has been DDoSed a handful of times, always accompanied by an email asking for a ransom in the form of bitcoin.
The first time we switched to Cloudflare which saved us. Even with Cloudflare, the DDoS attempts are still damaging (the site goes down, we use Cloudflare to block the endpoints they're targeting, they change endpoints, etc.) but manageable. Without Cloudflare or something like it, I think it's possible that we'd be out of business.
Honestly it kinda is. Ai bots scrape everything now, social media means you can go viral suddenly, or you make a post that angers someone and they launch an attack just because. I default to cloudflare, because like an umbrella I might just be carrying it around most of the time, but in the case of a sudden downpoor it's better than getting wet.
Setting up a replica and then pointing your api requests at it when cloudflare request fails is trivial. This way if you have a SPA and as long as your site/app is open the users won't notice.
The issue is DNS since DNS propagation takes time. Does anyone have any ideas here?
> Setting up a replica and then pointing your api requests at it when cloudflare request fails is trivial.
Only if you're doing very basic proxy stuff. If you stack multiple features and maybe even start using workers, there may be no 1:1 alternatives to switch to. And definitely not trivially.
We do use workers, but with hono so it's easy to deploy it on render with node.
There are other cloudflare products for which there are not many alternative(durable objects, workflows etc), but at least for us we don't use them in the critical path. We deliberately avoided them in the critical path because we knew we'll have to setup multi cloud for 99.999% uptime(we run a POS system so any downtime results in angry calls and long lines for our merchants)
The HN crowd in particular absolutely has a say in this, given the amount of engineering leads, managers, and even just regular programmers/admins/etc that frequent here - all of whom contribute to making these decisions.
You have the power to not host your own infrastructure on aws and behind cloudflare, or in the case of an employer you have the power to fight against the voices arguing for the unsustainable status quo.
If you need DDoS mitigation then you essentially need to rely on a third party. Every third party will have inevitable downtime. For many it’s just whether you’d prefer to be down while everyone else is down or not.
We? I am not using it. I never used it and I will not use it. People should learn how to work with firewall, setup a simple ModSecurity WAF and stop using this bullshit. Almost everything goes through cloudflare and cloudflare also does TLS fronting for websites so basically cloudflare is MITM spying proxy but no one seem to care. :/
I didn’t see anyone comment this directly, but something these recent outages made me wonder, having spent a good chunk of my career in 24/7 tech support, is that I can’t even fathom the amount of people who have been:
- restarting their routers and computers instead of taking their morning shower, getting their morning coffee, taking their medication on time because they’re freaking out, etc.
- calling ISPs in a furious mood not knowing it’s a service in the stack and not the provider’s fault (maybe)
- being late for work in general
- getting into arguments with friends and family and coworkers about politics and economics
- being interrupted making their jerk chicken
Cloudflare seems to have degrated performance. Half the requests for my site throw cloudflare 500x errors, the other half work fine.
However the https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/ does not really mention anything relevant. What's the point of having a status page if it lies ?
Update Ah I just checked the status and now I get a big red warning (however the problem existed for like 15 minutes before 11:48 UTC):
> Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available. Nov 18, 2025 - 11:48 UTC
> What's the point of having a status page if it lies ?
Status pages are basically marketing crap right now. The same thing happened with Azure where it took at least 45 minutes to show any change. They can't be trusted.
Please read my comment again including the update:
For 15 minute cloudflare wasn't working and the status page did not mentioned anything. Yes, right now the status page mentions the serious network problem but for some time our pages were not working and we didn't know what was happening.
So for ~ 15 minutes the status page lied. The whole point of a status page is to not lie, i.e to be updated automatically when there are problem and not by a person that needs to get clearance on what and how to write.
This is crazy. The internet has so much direct and transitive dependency on Cloudflare today. Pretty much the #1 dev slacking excuse today is no longer code compiling but cloudflare is down.
Cloud in general was a mistake. We took a system explicitly designed for decentralization and resilience and centralized it and created a few neat points of failure to take the whole damn thing down.
Cloudflare provides some nice services that have nothing to do with cloud or not. You can self-host private tunnels, application firewalls, traffic filtering, etc, or you can focus on building your application and managing your servers.
I am a self-host enthousiast. So I use Hetzner, Kamal and other tools for self-managing our servers, but we still have Cloudflare in front of them because we didn't want to handle the parts I mentioned (yet, we might sometime).
Calling it a mistake is a very narrow look at it. Just because it goes down every now and then, it isn't a mistake. Going for cloud or not has its trade-offs and I agree that paying 200 dollars a month for a 1GB Heroku Redis instance is complete madness when you can get a 4GB VPS on Hetzner for 3,8 a month. Then again, some people are willing to make that trade-off for not having to manage the servers.
Cloud servers have taught me so much about working with servers because they are so easy and cheap to spin up, experiment with and then get rid of again. If I had had to buy racks and host them each time I wanted to try something, I would've never done it.
Sure, it's a great fair-weather technology, makes some things cheap and easy.
But in the face of adversity, it's a huge liability. Imagine Chinese Hackers taking down AWS, Cloudflare, Azure and GCP simultaneously in some future conflict. Imagine what that would do to the West.
I don't believe in Fukuyamas End of History. History is still happening, and the choices we make will determine how it plays out.
Thanks, I was too lazy to write this, and noticed this comment multiple times now. It's good to be sceptical at times, but in this case it simply misses the mark.
Threat actors (DDoS) and AI scraping already threw a wrench in decentralization. It's become quite difficult to host anything even marginally popular without robust infrastructure that can eat a lot of traffic
I didn't think about the Cloudflare API, but we'll make sure to do it next time. Hopefully, it won't happen again. I want Cloudflare to delegate DNS control to an external provider so it's easy to disable/enable the CF proxy in case something like this happens.
I can now imagine a scenario where everyone has become so dependent on the AI tool that it going down could turn into an unanticipated black start event for the entire internet.
I sense a great disturbance in the force... As if millions of cringefluencers suddenly cried out in terror cause they had to come up with an original thought.
It's insane to me that big internet uptime monitoring tools like Pingdom and Downdetector both seem to rely on Cloudflare, as both of those are currently unavailable as well.
There are no truly automated status pages. It's an impossible problem. I mean that seriously. At scale you're collecting 100s of thousands (or mms) of metrics/spans/logs across 10s or 100s of loosely coupled systems. Building a system that can accurately analyze these and assess what the status page should say, in real time, without human intervention, is just not possible with current technology.
Even just the basic question of "are we down or is our monitoring system just having issues" requires a human. And it's never "are we down", because these are distributed systems we're talking about.
If service X goes down entirely, does that warrant a status page update? Yes? Turns out system X is just running ML jobs in the background and has no customer impact.
If service Z's p95 response latency jumps from 10ms to 1500ms for 5 minutes, 500s spike at the same time, but overall 200s rate is around 98%, are we down? is that a status page update? Is that 1 bad actor trying to cause issues? Is that indicative of 2,000 customers experiencing an outage and the other 98,000 operating normally? Is that a bad rack switch that's causing a few random 500s across the whole customer base and the service will reject that node and auto-recover in a moment?
I can answer that - once the lawyers take interest in your SLAs, you need to check with them if this is really an incident. Otherwise, you might lose some contract money and nobody wants that.
The main bike rental Velib in Paris has the app not working, but the bikes can be taken with NFC. However, my station, which is always full at this time, is now empty, with only 2 bad bikes. It maybe related. Yet, push notifications are working.
I'm going to take the metro now and thinking how long do we have until the entire transit network goes down because of a similar incident.
Later today or tomorrow there's going to be a post on HN pointing to Cloudflare's RCA and multitudes here are going to praise CF for their transparency. Let's not forget that CF sucks and took half the internet down for four hours. Transparency or no, this should not be happening.
Alot of things shouldnt be happening. Fact is that no one forced half the internet to make CF their point of failure. The internet should ask themselves if that was the right call
Speaking of 5 9s, how would you achieve 5 9s for a basic CRUD app that doesn't need to scale, but still be globally accessible? No auth, micro services, email or 3rd party services. Just a classic backend connected to a db (any db tech, hosted wherever), that serves up some html.
You probably cannot achieve this with a single node, so you'll at least need to replicate it a few times to combat the normal 2-3 9s you get from a single node. But then you've got load balancers and dns, which can also serve as single point of failure, as seen with cloudflare.
Depending on the database type and choice, it varies. If you've got a single node of postgres, you can likely never achieve more than 2-3 9s (aws guarantees 3 9s for a multi-az RDS). But if you do multi-master cockroach etc, you can maybe achieve 5 9s just on the database layer, or using spanner. But you'll basically need to have 5 9s which means quite a bit of redundancy in all the layers going to and from your app and data. The database and DNS being the most difficult.
Reliable DNS provider with 5 9s of uptime guarantees -> multi-master load balancer each with 3 9s, -> each load balancer serving 3 or more apps each with 3 9s of availability, going to a database(s) with 5 9s.
This page from google shows their uptime guarantees for big tables, 3 9s for a single region with a cluster. 4 9s for multi cluster and 5 9s for multi region
Part of the up-time solution is keeping as much of your app and infrastructure within your control, rather than being at the behest of mega-providers as we've witnessed in the past month: Cloudflare, and AWS.
Probably:
- a couple of tower servers, running Linux or FreeBSD, backed up by a UPS and an auto-run generator with 24 hours worth of diesel (depending on where you are, and the local areas propensity for natural disasters - maybe 72 hours),
- Caddy for a reverse proxy, Apache for the web server, PostgreSQL for the database;
- behind a router with sensible security settings, that also can load-balance between the two servers (for availability rather than scaling);
- on static WAN IPs,
- with dual redundant (different ISPs/network provider) WAN connections,
- a regular and strictly followed patch and hardware maintenance cycle,
- located in an area resistant to wildfire, civil unrest, and riverine or coastal flooding.
I'd say that'd get you close to five 9s (no more than ~5 minutes downtime per year), though I'd pretty much guarantee five 9s (maybe even six 9s - no more than 32 seconds downtime per year) if the two machines were physically separated from each other by a few hundred kilometres, each with their own supporting infrastructure above, sans the load balancing (see below), through two separate network routes.
Load balancing would become human-driven in this 'physically separate' example (cheaper, less complex): if your-site-1.com fails, simply re-point your browser to your-site-2.com which routes to the other redundant server on a different network.
The hard part now will be picking network providers that don't use the same pipes/cables, i.e. they both use Cloudflare, or AWS...
Keep the WAN IPs written down in case DNS fails.
PostgreSQL can do master-master replication, but it's a pain to set up I understand.
what if you could create a super virtual server of sorts. imagine a new cloud provider like vercel but called something else. what this provider does is when you create a server on their service, they create 3 services, one on aws, one on gcp and one on azure. behind the scenes they are 3 separate servers but to the end user they are a single server. the end user gets to control how many cloud providers are involved. when aws goes down, no worries, it switches to the part with gcp on
I've been considering Cloudflare for caching, DDoS protection and WAF, but I don't like furthering the centralization of the Web. And my host (Vultr) has had fantastic uptime over the 10 years I've been on them.
How are others doing this? How is Hacker News hosted/protected?
> A fix has been implemented and we believe the incident is now resolved. We are continuing to monitor for errors to ensure all services are back to normal. Posted 3 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 14:42 UTC
Seems like they think they've fixed it fully this time!
Close! They just updated their states and it's back to working on a fix
Update - Some customers may be still experiencing issues logging into or using the Cloudflare dashboard. We are working on a fix to resolve this, and continuing to monitor for any further issues.
Nov 18, 2025 - 14:57 UTC
Phew, my latest 3h30 workshop about Obsidian was saved.
I recorded it this morning, not knowing about the Cloudflare issue (probably started while I was busy). I'm using Circle.so and they're down (my community site is now inaccessible). Luckily, they probably use AWS S3 or similar to host their files, so that part is still up and running.
Meanwhile all my sites are down. I'll just wait this one out, it's not the end of the world for me.
My GitHub actions are also down for one of my project because some third-party deps go through Cloudflare (Vulkan SDK). Just yesterday I was thinking to myself: "I don't like this dependency on that URL...". Now I like it even less
I got an email saying that my OpenAI auto-renewal failed, my credits have run out. I go to OpenAI to reauthorize the card, and I can't login because OpenAI uses Cloudflare for "verifying you are a human" that goes in infinite loop. Great.
I'm thinking about all those quips from a few decades back, along the lines of: "The Internet is resilient, it's distributed and it routes around damage" etc.
In many ways it's still true, but it doesn't feel like a given anymore.
I think you should give me a credit for all the income I lost due to this outage. Who authorized a change to the core infrastructure during the period of the year when your customers make the most income? Seriously, this is a management failure at the highest levels of decision-making. We don't make any changes to our server infrastructure/stack during the busiest time of the year, and neither should you. If there were an alternative to Cloudflare, I'd leave your service and move my systems elsewhere.
Recently my multiple VPN server nodes just randomly cannot connect to cloudflare CDN IPs, from different provider VPS, while the Host Linux network does not have the issue; vpp share the same address with Linux and use tc stateless NAT to do the trick.
I finally work around this by change the tcp options sent by vpp tcp stack.
But the whole thing made me worry there must be something deployed which cause this issue.
But I do not think that related with this network issue, it just reminds me the above, I feel there are frequently new articles about cloudflare networking, maybe new method or new deployment sort of related high probability of issues
For anyone reading this who desperately needs their website up, you can try this: If you manage to get to your Cloudflare DNS settings and disable the "Proxy status (Proxied)" feature (the orange cloud), it should start working again.
Be aware that this change has a few immediate implications:
- SSL/TLS: You will likely lose your Cloudflare-provided SSL certificate. Your site will only work if your origin server has its own valid certificate.
- Security & Performance: You will lose the performance benefits (caching, minification, global edge network) and security protections (DDoS mitigation, WAF) that Cloudflare provides.
This will also reveal your backend internal IP addresses. Anyone can find permanent logs of public IP addresses used by even obscure domain names, so potential adversaries don't necessarily have to be paying attention at the exact right time to find it.
Unfortunately, this will also expose your IP address, which may leave you vulnerable even when the WAF and DDoS protections come back up (unless you take the time to only listen for Cloudflare IP address ranges, which could still take a beefy server if you're having to filter large amounts of traffic).
Looking forward to seeing their RCA. I'm guessing it's going to be glossy in terms of actual customer impact. "We didn't go offline, we just had 100% errors. For 60 minutes."
My theory is that people's skills are getting worse. Attention spans are diminishing, memory is shrinking. People age and retire, new less skilled generations are replacing them. There are studies about declining IQ in the last decades. Probably mobile phones and social media are to blame.
We see the signs with Amazon and Cloudflare going down, Windows Update breaking stuff. But the worse is yet to come, and I am thinking about airport traffic control, nuclear power plants, surgeons...
> There are studies about declining IQ in the last decades. Probably mobile phones and social media are to blame.
It is much more nuanced than that.
The long-term rise (Flynn Effect) of IQs in the 20th century is widely believed to be driven by environmental factors more than genetics.
Plateau / decline is context-dependent: The reversal or slowdown isn’t universal, like you suggest. It seems more pronounced in certain countries or cohorts.
Cognitive abilities are diversifying: As people specialize more (education, careers, lifestyles), the structure of intelligence (how different cognitive skills relate) might be changing.
I happened to be working with Claude when this occurred. Having no idea what exactly what the cause was, I jumped over to GPT and observed the same. I did a dig challenges.cloudflare.com and by the time I'd figured out kind of what was happening, it seemed to have... resolved itself
I must say I'm astonished, as naive as it may be, to see the number of separate platforms affected by this. And it has been a bit of a learning experience too.
DigitalOcean + Gandi means nothing I run is down. Amazing. We depend far too greatly on centralised services where we deem the value of reputation and convenience exceeds the potential downsides and then the world pays for it. I think we have to feel a lot more of this pain before regulation kicks in to change things because the reality is people don't change. The only thing you can personally do is run a lot of your own stuff for things you can.
The sites I host on Cloudflare are all down. Also, even ChatGPT was down for a while, showing the error: "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed."
This reminds me that I really like self-hosting. While it is true that many of things do not work, all my services do work. It has some tradeoffs of course.
Yesterday I decided to finally write my makefiles to "mirror" (make available offline) the docs of the libraries I'm using. doc2dash for sphinx-enabled projects, and then using dash / zeal.
Then I was like... "when did I last time fly for 10+ hours and wanted to do programming, etc, so that I need offline docs?" So I gave up.
Today I can't browse the libs' docs quickly, so I'm resuming the work on my local mirroring :-)
Is it me, or do the outages of single points of failure for large swaths of the internet tend to cluster within weeks/days of one another?
Anyone know why? Could be totally bias because one news story propels the next, so when they happen in clusters, you just hear about them more than when they don't.
There is an election in Denmark today, I wonder if this will affect that. The governments website is not accessible at the moment because it uses Cloudflare.
What do we actually lose going from cloud back to ground?
The mass centralization is a massive attack vector for organized attempts to disrupt business in the west.
But we’re not doing anything about it because we’ve made a mountain at of a molehill. Was it that hard to manage everything locally?
I get that there’s plenty of security implications going that route, but it would be much harder to bring down t large portions of online business with a single attack.
> What do we actually lose going from cloud back to ground?
A lot of money related to stuff you currently don't have to worry about.
I remember how shit worked before AWS. People don't remember how costly and time consuming this stuff used to be. We had close to 50 people in our local ops team back in the day when I was working with Nokia 13 years ago. They had to deal with data center outages, expensive storage solutions failing, network links between data centers, offices, firewalls, self hosted Jira running out of memory, and a lot of other crap that I don't spend a lot of time about worrying with a cloud based setup. Just a short list of stuff that repeatedly was an issue. Nice when it worked. But nowhere near five nines of uptime.
That ops team alone cost probably a few million per year in salaries alone. I knew some people in that team. Good solid people but it always seemed like a thankless and stressful job to me. Basically constant firefighting while getting people barking at you to just get stuff working. Later a lot of that stuff moved into AWS and things became a lot easier and the need for that team largely went away. The first few teams doing that caused a bit of controversy internally until management realized that those teams were saving money. Then that quickly turned around. And it wasn't like AWS was cheap. I worked in one of those teams. That entire ops team was replaced by 2-3 clued in devops people that were able to move a lot faster. Subsequent layoff rounds in Nokia hit internal IT and ops teams hard early on in the years leading up to the demise of the phone business.
Yeah, people have such short memories for this stuff. When we ran our own servers a couple of jobs ago, we had a rota of people who'd be on call for events like failing disks. I don't want to ever do that again.
In general, I'm much happier with the current status of "it all works" or "it's ALL broken and its someone else's job to fix it as fast as possible"!
Not saying its perfect but neither was on-prem/colocation
Strange thing is this is in multiple CD regions all using bot & WAF are down, just got a colueuge to check our site and both London & Singapour cloudflare servers are out... And I cant even login to the cloudflare dash to re-route critical traffic
. Likely this is accidental, but one day there will be something malicous that will have big impacts with how centralised the internet now is.
>Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available.
I had two completely unrelated tabs open (https://twitter.com and https://onsensensei.com) both showing the same error. Opened another website, same error. Kinda funny to see how much of entire web is ran on CloudFlare nowadays.
Why do people use the reverse proxy functionality of Cloudflare? I've worked at small to medium sized businesses that never had any of this while running public facing websites and they were/are just fine.
Same goes for my personal projects: I've never been worried about being targeted by a botnet so much that I introduce a single point of failure like this.
Any project that starts gaining any bit of traction get's hammered with bots (the ones that try every single /wp url even tough you don't even use Wordpress), frequent DDoS attacks, and so on.
I consider my server's real IP (or load balancer IP) as a secret for that reason, and Cloudflare helps exactly with that.
Everything goes through Cloudflare, where we have rate limiters, Web firewall, challenges for China / Russian inbound requests (we are very local and have zero customers outside our country), and so on.
people think that running nodejs servers are a good idea, and those fall over if there's ever so much as a stiff breeze, so they put cloudflare in front and call it a day.
It gives really good caching functionality so you can have large amounts of traffic and your site can easily handle it. Plus they don't charge for egress traffic.
What exactly are you serving that bot traffic affects your quality of service?
I've seen an RPi serve a few dozen QPS of dynamic content without issue... The only service I've had actually get successfully taken down by benign bots is a Gitea-style git forges (which was 'fixed' by deploying Anubis in front of it).
Our national transit agency is apparently a customer.
The departure tables are borked, showing incorrect data, the route map stopped updating, the website and route planner are down, and the API returns garbage. Despite everything, the management will be pleased to know the ads kept on running offline.
Why would you put a WAP between devices you control and your own infra, God knows.
The non profit I volunteer at is unreachable. It gives a cloudflare error page which is sort of helpful. It tells me the the site is ok but cloudflare has an 500.
It’s been great, but I always wonder when a company starts doing more than it’s initially calling. There have been a ton of large attacks, tons of bot scrappers so it’s the Wild West.
yes they're spreading themselves very thin with lots of new releases/products - but they will lose a lot of customers if their reliability comes into question
So they broke the internet. Nice!
Never seen so many sites not working.
Never seen so many desktop app suddenly stop working.
I don't want to be the person responsible for this.
And this again has thought me it's better to no rely on external services. Even though they seem to big to fail.
Down, but the linked status page shows mostly operational, except for "Support Portal Availability Issues" and planned maintenance. Since it was linked, I'm curious if others see differently.
edit: It now says "Cloudflare Global Network experiencing issues" but it took a while.
It would appear if you use a VPN in Europe you can still access Cloudflare sites, I have just tried, for me the Netherlands, Germany, and France work, but the UK and USA don't.
EDIT: It would appear it is still unreliable in these countries, it just stopped working in France for me.
I would love to see a competition for the most banal thing that went wrong as a result of this. For example, I’m pretty sure the reason my IKEA locker wouldn’t latch shut was because the OS had hung while talking to a Cloudflare backend.
Cloudflare Dashboard/Clicky clicky UI is down. I really appreciate that their API is still working. Small change in our Terraform configuration and now I can go lunch in peace knowing our clients at skeeled can keep working if wanted:
No logging in to Cloudflare Dash, no passing Turnstile (their CAPTCHA Replacement Solution) on third-party websites not proxied by Cloudflare, the rest that are proxied throwing 500 Internal server error saying it's Cloudflare's fault…
Linode has been rock solid for me. I wanted to back this comment with uptime numbers, unfortunately the service I use for that, Uptime Robot, is down because of Cloudflare...
Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available.
Nov 18, 2025 - 11:48 UTC
Yeah, those multiple customers is like 70% of the internet.
one way to mitigate DDoS is to enforce source IP checks on the way OUT of a datacenter (egress).
sure there are botnets, infected devices, etc that would conform to this but where does the sheer power of a big ddos attack come from? including those who sell it as a service. they have to have some infrastructure in some datacenter right?
make a law that forces every edge router of a datacenter to check for source IP and you would eliminate a very big portion of DDoS as we know it.
until then, the only real and effective method of mitigating a DDoS attack is with even more bandwidth. you are basically a black hole to the attack, which cloudflare basically is.
alright, what you are proposing is kind of hard to do.
Source routing is not easy, and source validations is even harder.
and what prevents me, as a abuse hoster or "bad guy" from just announcing my own IP space directly on a transit or IXP?
You might say, the IXP should do source checking aswell, but what if ipspace is distributed/anycasted across multiple ASN's/ on the IXP?
Also, if you add multiple egress points distributed across different routing domains, it gets complicated fast.
Does my transit upstream need to do source validation of my IP space? What about their upstream? Also, how would he know which IPspace belongs to which ASN's considering the allocation of ASN numbers and IP space is distributed across different organisations across the globe. (some of which are more malicious/non function than others[0]). Source routing becomes extremly complex because there is no single, universal mapping between IP space and ASN's they belong too.
The biggest attacks literally come from botnets. There’s not a lot coming from infrastructure services precisely because these services are incentivized to shut that shit down. At most it would be used as the control plane which is how people attempt to shut down the botnets.
Cloudflare runs a high demand service, and the centralisation does deserve scrutiny. I think a good middle ground I’ll adopt is self hosting critical services and then when they have an outage redirect traffic to a Cloudflare outage banner.
Meanwhile my Wordpress blog on DigitalOcean is up. And so is DigitalOcean.
My ISP is routing public internet traffic to my IPs these days. What keeps me from running my blog from home? Fear of exposing a TCP port, that's what. What do we do about that?
Depending on the contract it might not be allowed to run public network services from your home network.
I had a friend doing that and once his site got popular the ISP called (or sent a letter? don't remember anymore) with "take this 10x more expensive corporate contract or we will block all this traffic".
In general why the ISPs don't want you to do that (in addition to way more expensive corporate rates) is the risk of someone DDoS that site which could cause issues to large parts of their domestic customers (and depending on the country be liable to compensate those customers for not providing a service they paid for)
> Our Engineering team is actively investigating an issue impacting multiple DigitalOcean services caused by an upstream provider incident. This disruption affects a subset of Gen AI tools, the App Platform, Load Balancer, Spaces and provisioning or management actions for new clusters. Existing clusters are not affected. Users may experience degraded performance or intermittent failures within these services.
> We acknowledge the inconvenience this may cause and are working diligently to restore normal operations. Signs of recovery are starting to appear, with most requests beginning to succeed. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and provide timely updates as more information becomes available. Thank you for your patience as we work towards full service restoration.
Yeah, DigitalOcean and Dreamhost are both up. I actually self-host on 2Gig fibre service, and all my stuff is up, except I park everything behind Cloudflare since there is no way I could handle a DDoS attack.
We finally switched to CF a few weeks ago (for bot protection, abusive traffic started getting insane this year), finally we can join in on one of the global outage parties (no cloud usage otherwise, so still more uptime than most).
Because javascript programmers are cheaper/easier/whatever to hire? So everything becomes web-centric. (I'm hoping for this comment to be sarcastic but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out not to be)
Hey, this is fun, all my websites are still up! I wonder how that happened? I don't even have to worry about my docker registry being down because I set up my own after the last global outage.
Didn't have my site on cloudflare bc it would be faster for chinese users (its main demographic) so i THOUGHT i was fine for a second until i remembered the data storage api is behind cloudflare
Is anybody keeping statistics on the frequency of these big global internet outages? It seems to be happening extremely frequently as of late, but it would be nice to have some data on that.
This Internet thing is steadily becoming the most fragile surface attack out there. No need for nuclear weapons anymore, just hit Cloudflare and AWS and we are back to the stone age.
We're on the enterprise plan, so far we're seeing Dashboard degradation and Turnstile (their captcha service) down. But all proxying/CDN and other services seem to work well.
Why are we seeing AWS, then Azure, then Cloudflare all going down just out of the blue? I know they go down occasionally, but it's typically not major outages like this...
Down... "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed." On every Cloudflare hosted website that I try. This timing SUCKS.......... please resolve fast! <3
Ah! Well, all of my websites are down! I’m going to take screenshots and have it as part of my Time Capsule Album, “Once upon a Time, my websites used to go down.”
If someone wanted to learn about how the modern infrastructure stack works, and why things like this occur, where would be some good resources to start?
I sometimes question my business decision to have a multi-cloud, multi-region web presence where it is totally acceptable to be down with the big boys.
Prior hosting provider was a little-known company with decent enough track record, but because they employed humans, stuff would break. When it did break, C-suite would panic about how much revenue is lost, etc.
The number of outages was "reasonable" to anyone who understood the technical side, but non-technical would complain for weeks after an outage about how we're always down, "well BigServiceX doesn't break ever, why do we?", and again lost revenue.
Now on Azure/Cloudflare, we go down when everyone else does, but C-Suite goes "oh it's not just us, and it's out of our control? Okay let us know when it fixes itself."
A great lesson in optics and perception, for our junior team members.
Haha they updated their status page: "Identified - A global upstream provider is currently experiencing an outage which is impacting platform-level and project-level services"
I assume the locations are operating fine, since you can see the error pages. The culprit here is probably the Network, which at the time of writing, shows up as offline
Windows 11 has some annoying UI decisions, but is otherwise 100% reliable for me and absolutely my OS of choice. Edge is essentially Chrome, but generally ties in better with the MS accounts ecosystem which I already use.
makes you realise, if cloudflare or one of these large organisations decides to (/ gets ordered by a deranged US president to) block your internet access, that's a whole lot of internet you're suddenly cut off from. Yes, i know there are circumventions, but its still a owrrying thought.
just yesterday cloudflare announced it was acquiring replicate (ai platform) "the Workers Platform mission: Our goal all along has been to enable developers to build full-stack applications without having to burden themselves with infrastructure" according to cloudflare's blog, are we cooked?
In theory even a single company service could be distributed, so only a fraction of websites would be affected, thus it's not a necessity to be a single point of failure. So I still don't like this argument "you see what happens when over half of the internet relies on Cloudflare". And yes, I'm writing this as a Cloudflare user whose blog is now down because of this. Cloudflare is still convenient and accessible for many people, no wonder why it's so popular.
But, yeah, it's still a horrible outage, much worse than the Amazon one.
The "omg centralized infra" cries after every such event kind of misses the point. Hosting with smaller companies (shared, vps, dedi, colo whatever) will likely result in far worse downtimes, individually.
Ofc the bigger perception issue here is many services going out at the same time, but why would (most) providers care if their annual downtime does or doesn't coincide with others? Their overall reliability is no better or worse had only their service gone down.
All of this can change ofc if this becomes a regular thing, the absolute hours of downtime does matter.
For fun, I asked google what's an alternative to Cloudflare. It says, "A complete list of Cloudflare alternatives depends on which specific service (CDN, security, Zero Trust, edge computing, etc.) you are replacing, as no single competitor offers the exact same all-in-one suite"
used a down-detector site to check if cloudflare is down, but the site is running on cloudflare, so i couldnt check if cloudflare was down for anyone else, because cloudflare was down
If a cloud vendor with 1 million users experiences a long term outage: the vendor has a serious problem. If a cloud vendor with 1 billion users experiences a long term outage: the internet has a serious problem. Yada-yada-yada xkcd/2347 but it's the big block in the middle which crumbled
Oh no, we can’t take a (former) executive to task about what they’ve wrought with their influence!!! That would be wrong.
If anything, he should be the first to be blamed for the greater and greater effect this tech monster has on internet stability, since, you know, his people built it.
When will Cloudflare actually split into several totally independent companies to remedy that they bring down the Internet every time they have a major issue?
I am using cloudflare as back-end for my site (workers) but have disabled all their other offerings. I was affected for a short while but seems to be less affected than other people.
The biggest learning for me from this incident - NEVER make your DNS provider and CDN provider the same vendor. Now, I can't login into the dashboard, even to switch the DNS. Sigh.
while my colleagues are wondering why cloudlfare isn't working and are afraid it might be something from us locally, I'll first check here to make sure it's not a Cloudflare / AWS problem in the first place.
Update
We've deployed a change which has restored dashboard services. We are still working to remediate broad application services impact
Posted 2 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 14:34 UTC
but,..
I'm stuck at the captcha that does not work:
dash.cloudflare.com
Verifying you are human. This may take a few seconds.
dash.cloudflare.com needs to review the security of your connection before proceeding.
It's the old IBM thing. If your website goes down along with everyone else's because of Cloudflare, you shrug and say "nothing we could do, we were following the industry standard". If your website goes down because of on-prem then it's very much your problem and maybe you get to look forward to an exciting debrief with your manager's manager.
That's lazy engineering and I don't think we as technical, rational people should make that our way of working. I know the saying, but I disagree with it. My fuckups, my problem, but at least I can avoid fuckups actively if I am in charge.
I don't, since my stuff is reachable only within the company network/VPN. If I needed to though, I would consult the BSI list of official DDOS mitigation services [0] and evaluate each one before deciding. I would not auto-pick Cloudflare.
Yeah, but people aren't using Cloudflare just for DDOS Mitigation. Some are running pretty much everything over it, from DNS to edge caching to load balancing and even hosting. That's what I oppose mainly.
Unless you are really big, onprem stuff would be 90% internal anyway. For everything public you'd host your hardware in a datacenter with better high speed connectivity. And pretty much every single datacenter I interacted with in the last 5 years does have a DDOS protection solution that you can order for your network.
That's fair, yeah, and I agree it's not always feasible - but if you have any influence over technical direction at your org, I encourage what I wrote above. Otherwise yeah, let the pea counters in the C-Levels dig their own grave.
Funnily and ironically enough, I was trying to check out a few things on Ansible Galaxy and... I ended up here trying to submit the link for the CF ongoing incident
I would only consider doing stuff on-prem because of services like Cloudflare. You can have some of the global features like edge-caching while also getting the (cost) benefits of on-prem.
Well, between AWS US EAST 1 killing half the internet, and this incident, not even a month passed. Meanwhile, my physical servers don't care and happily serve many people at a cheaper cost than any cloud offer.
You realize these are two different companies right? If you’re saying “I’m an AWS customer with cloudflare in front” I think you’ve failed to realize that two 99.9% available services in series have a combined availability of ~99.8% - that’s just math.
Your physical servers should have similar issues if you put a CDN in front unless the physical server is able to achieve a 100% uptime (100% * 3 9s = 3 9s). Or you don’t have a CDN but can be trivially knocked offline by the tiniest botnet (or even hitting hacker news front page)
I do. But I put both into the "cloud offering off-prem for very much money" shoebox. I setup a CDN once using VPS from different hosting providers for under 100 USD a month, which I would vastly prefer over trusting anything cloud.
And yes, I know that there's sites that need the scale of an operation like Cloudflare or AWS. But 99.9(...)% of pages don't, and people should start realizing that.
People who don't need that, also don't care much for an hour or two of service disruption. Most users will have far worse disruptions with the alternatives.
We have a few colocated servers offsite, each in a different region, each with a zpool of mirrored spinning rust. We use rsync across those at different times.
Half of the internet is down. That's what you get for giving up the control of the service that suppose to be decentralized to one company. Good, maybe if it costs companies few billions they will not put all eggs in one basket.
This seems to corroborate the recent controversial claims that American workers do not possess the aptitudes needed to succeed in the 21st century. If only we could have gotten more children to learn to code. Sigh.
I am paying for this shit service and this is my longest downtime I had in years. Can anyone recommend any other bottleneck to be annoyed with in future?
They are decentralized with servers all on the East coast that they self host. They do have points of failure that can take down the whole network, however.
I'm weary of the broader internet having spofs like AWS and Cloudflare. Can't change routing or DNS horizons to get around it. Things are just broken in ways that are not only opaque, but destructive due to so much relying on fragile sync state.
Will my Spelling Bee QBABM count today, or will it fail and tomorrow I find out that last MA(4) didn't register, ruining my streak? Society cannot function like this! /s
AWS, Azure, now Cloudflare, all within a month, are hit with configuration errors that are definitely neither signs of more surveillance gear being added by government agencies nor attacks by hostile powers. It's a shame that these fine services that everyone apparently needs and that worked so well for so long without a problem suddenly all have problems at the same time.
AWS was not a configuration error, it was a race condition on their load balancer's automated DNS record attribution that caused empty DNS records. As that issue was being fixed, it cascaded into further, more complex issues overloading EC2 instance provisioning.
Gemini is up, I asked it to explain what's going on in cave man speak:
YOU: Ask cave-chief for fire.
CAVE-CHIEF (Cloudflare): Big strong rock wall around many other cave fires (other websites). Good, fast wall!
MANY CAVE-PEOPLE: Shout at rock wall to get fire.
ROCK WALL: Suddenly… CRACK! Wall forgets which cave has which fire! Too many shouts!
RESULT:
Your Shout: Rock wall does not hear you, or sends you to wrong cave.
Other Caves (like X, big games): Fire is there, but wall is broken. Cannot get to fire.
ME (Gemini): My cave has my own wall! Not rock wall chief! So my fire is still burning! Good!
BIG PROBLEM: Big strong wall broke. Nobody gets fire fast. Wall chief must fix strong rock fast!
If anyone needs commands for turning off the CF proxy for their domains and happens to have a Cloudflare API token.
First you can grab the zone ID via:
And a list of DNS records using: Each DNS record will have an ID associated. Finally patch the relevant records: Copying from a sibling comment - some warnings:- SSL/TLS: You will likely lose your Cloudflare-provided SSL certificate. Your site will only work if your origin server has its own valid certificate.
- Security & Performance: You will lose the performance benefits (caching, minification, global edge network) and security protections (DDoS mitigation, WAF) that Cloudflare provides.
- This will also reveal your backend internal IP addresses. Anyone can find permanent logs of public IP addresses used by even obscure domain names, so potential adversaries don't necessarily have to be paying attention at the exact right time to find it.
Also, for anyone who only has an old global API key lying around instead of the more recent tokens, you can set:
instead of the Bearer token header.Edit: and in case you're like me and thought it would be clever to block all non-Cloudflare traffic hitting your origin... remember to disable that.
This is exactly what we've decided we should do next time. Unfortunately we didn't generate an API token so we are sitting twiddling our thumbs.
Edit: seems like we are back online!
Took me ~30 minutes but eventually I was able to log in, get past the 2FA screen and change a DNS record.
I surely missed a valid API token today.
I'm still trying.
Still can't load the Turnstile JS :-/
Turnstile is back up (for now). Go refresh. I just managed to make an API key and turn off proxied DNS.
install tweak chrome extension and mitm yourself and force the js to load from somewhere else
Im able to generate keys right now through warp. Login takes forever but it is working.
Awesome! I did it via the Terraform provider, but for anyone else without access to the dashboard this is great. Thank you!
If anyone needs the internet to work again (or to get into your cf dashboard to generate API keys), if you have Cloudflare WARP installed, turning it on appears to fix otherwise broken sites. Maybe using 1.1.1.1 does too, but flipping the radio box was faster. Some parts of sites are still down, even after tunneling into to CF.
super helpful. thanks!
looks like i can get everywhere i couldn't except my cloudflare dash.
Its absurdly slow (like multiple minutes to get the login page to fully load for the login button to be pressable, due to catchpa...), but I was able to log into the dashboard. It's throwing lots of errors once inside, but I can navigate around some of it. YMMV.
My profile (including api tokens,) and websites pages all work, the accounts tab above website on the left does not.
Good advice!
And no need for -X GET to make a GET request with curl, it is the default HTTP method if you don’t send any content.
If you do send content with say -d curl will do a POST request, so no need for -X then either.
For PATCH though, it is the right curl option.
thanks for this! just expanded on a bit and published a write up here so it's easier to find in the future: https://www.coryzue.com/writing/cloudflare-dns/
I would advise against this action. Just ride the crash.
If people knew how to play the 5 hour long game they wouldn't have been using Cloudflare in the first place.
[dead]
A colleague of mine just came bursting through my office door in a panic, thinking he brought our site down since this happened just as he made some changes to our Cloudflare config. He was pretty relieved to see this post.
Tell him it's worse than he thinks. He obviously brought the entire Cloudflare system down.
You joke and I think its funny, but as a junior engineer I would be quite proud if some small change I made was able to take down the mighty Cloudflare.
If I were Cloudflare it would mean an immediate job offer well above market. That junior engineer is either a genius or so lucky that they must be bred by Pierson’s Puppeteers or such a perfect manifestation of a human fuzzer that their skills must be utilized.
This reminds of a friend I had in college. We were assigned to the same group coding an advanced calculator in C. This guy didn't know anything about programming (he was mostly focused on his side biz of selling collector sneakers), so we assigned him to do all the testing, his job was to come up with weird equations and weird but valid way to present them to the calculator. And this dude somehow managed to crash almost all of our iterations except the few last ones. Really put the joke about a programmer, a tester, and a customer walk into a bar into perspective.
I love that he ended up making a very valuable contribution despite not knowing how to program -- other groups would have just been mad at him, had him do nothing, or had him do programming and gotten mad when it was crap or not finished.
A Ringworld reference in the wild?
I never thought I'd get the chance, but then my Claude Code on Web credits ran out and I had to find another way to entertain myself.
Even after 20 projects I have only used $60 of my $250
I think the rate limits for Claude Code on the Web include VM time in general and not just LLM tokens. I have a desktop app with a full end to end testing suite which the agent would run for every session that probably burned up quite a bit.
Internet points demand obscure references these days. My system prompt has its own area code
> If I were Cloudflare it would mean an immediate job offer well above market.
And not a lawsuit? Cause I've read more about that kind of reaction than of job offers. Though I guess lawsuits are more likely to be controversial and talked about.
I kind of did that back in the days when they released Worker KV, I tried to bulk upload a lot of data and it brought the whole service down, can confirm I was proud :D
It's also not exactly the least common way that this sort of huge multi-tenant service goes down. It's only as rare as it is because more or less all of them have had such outages in the past and built generic defenses (e.g. automated testing of customer changes, gradual rollout, automatic rollback, there are others but those are the ones that don't require any further explanation).
You might want to consider migrating to Azure Front Door if that's a feature you like: https://www.infoq.com/news/2025/11/azure-afd-control-plane-f...
Well its easy to cause damage by messing up the `rm` command, esp with `-fr` options. So don't take it as a proxy for some great skill which is required to cause damage.
You could easily cause great damage to your Cloudflare setup, but CF has measures to prevent random customers deleting stuff from taking down the entire service globally. Unless you have admin access to the entire CF system, you can't really cause much damage with rm.
>You joke and I think its funny, but as a junior engineer I would be quite proud if some small change I made was able to take down the mighty Cloudflare.
I mean, with Cloudflare's recent (lack of) uptime, I would argue there's a degree of crashflation happening such that the prestige is less in doing so. I mean nowadays if a lawnmower drives by cloudflare and backfires that's enough to collapse the whole damn thing
Are you actually so mind-numbingly ignorant that you think Rebecca Heineman had a brother named Bill, that you would rudely and incorrectly try to correct people who knew her story well, during a memorial discussion of her life and death?
Or were you purposefully going out of your way to perpetrate performative ignorance and transphobic bullying, just to let everyone know that you're a bigoted transphobic asshole?
I don't buy that it was an innocent mistake, given the context of the rest of the discussion, and your pretending to know her family better than the poster you were replying to and everyone else in the discussion, falsely denying her credit for her own work. Do you really think dang made the Hacker News header black because he and everyone else was confused and you were right?
Do you like to show up at funerals of people you don't know, just to interrupt the eulogy with insults, stuff pennies up your ass (as you claim to do), then shit and piss all over the coffin in front of their family and friends?
How long did you have to wait until she died before you had the courage to deadname, misgender, and punch down at her in a memorial, out of hate and cowardice and a perverse desire to show everyone what kind of a person you really are?
Next time, can you at least wait until after the funeral before committing your public abuse?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45975524
amypetrik8 13 hours ago [flagged] [dead] | parent | context | flag | vouch | favorite | on: Rebecca Heineman has died
The work you're outlining here is was performed by "Bill Heineman" - maybe you are mixing up Bill with his sister Rebecca?!?
Can you calm down with the absolutely mental rants against people in unrelated threads. Cuckoo crazy behavior.
Posting abusive bigoted bullshit in a memorial thread is cuckoo crazy behavior. Calling it out and describing it isn't. You're confusing describing the abuse with committing the abuse. Direct your scorn at the person I'm criticizing, unless you agree with what they did, in which case my criticism also applies directly and personally to you, so no wonder you created a throw away sock puppet account just to attempt to defend your own bigotry and abuse.
Have you ranted at John Carmack yet?
Well, you can never be sure that he didn't:
https://www.fastly.com/blog/summary-of-june-8-outage
It's also what was the cause of the Azure Front Doors global outage two weeks ago - https://aka.ms/air/YKYN-BWZ
"A specific sequence of customer configuration changes, performed across two different control plane build versions, resulted in incompatible customer configuration metadata being generated. These customer configuration changes themselves were valid and non-malicious – however they produced metadata that, when deployed to edge site servers, exposed a latent bug in the data plane. This incompatibility triggered a crash during asynchronous processing within the data plane service. This defect escaped detection due to a gap in our pre-production validation, since not all features are validated across different control plane build versions."
This is actually pretty nice and amazing that they publish video format incident retrospectives.
Oh don't you worry. We are very much talking about the global outage as if he was the root cause. Like good colleagues :)
Hmm, wait a minute.. maybe he was the cause! (no, kidding. just upping the pressure as a good peer :)
are we truly good if we don't start a class action suit against this hapless scapegoat?!
Just join the one we've started over in this cubicle!
> May 12, we began a software deployment that introduced a bug that could be triggered by a specific customer configuration under specific circumstances.
I'd love to know more about what those specific circumstances were!
I'm pretty sure I crashed Gmail using something weird in its filters. It was a few years ago. Every time I did something specific (I don't remember what), it would freeze and then display a 502 error for a while.
Damn, imagine being the customer responsible for that, oof
What do you imagine would be the result if you brought down cloudflare with a legitimate config update (ie not specifically crafted to trigger known bugs) while not even working for them? If I were the customer "responsible" for this outage, I'd just be annoyed that their software is apparently so fragile.
I would be fine if it was my "fault", but I'm sure people in business would find a way to make me suffer.
But on a personal level, this is like ordering something at a restaurant and the cook burning the kitchen because they forgot to take out your pizza out of the oven or something.
I would be telling it to everyone over beers (but not my boss).
I would be tempted to put it on my CV :D
Is there a word for that feeling of relief when someone else fucked up after initially thinking it was you?
What’s funny is as I get older this feeling of relief turns more like a feeling of dread. The nice thing about problems that you cause is that you have considerable autonomy to fix them. Cloudflare goes down you’re sitting and waiting for a 3 party to fix something.
Why is it dread? I always feel good when big players mess up, as it makes me feel better about my own mess ups in life previously.
Can’t speak for GP but ultimately I’d rather it be my fault or my company’s fault so I have something I can directly do for my customers who can’t use our software. The sense of dread isn’t about failure but feeling empathy for others who might not make payroll on time or whatever because my service that they rely on is down. And the second order effects, like some employee of a customer being unable to make rent or be forced to take out a short term loan or whatever. The fallout from something like this can have an unexpected human cost at times. Thankfully it’s Tuesday, not a critical payroll day for most employees.
But why does this case specifically matter? What if their system was down due to their WiFi or other layers beyond your software? Would you feel the same as well?
What about all the other systems and people suffering elsewhere in the World?
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that if I can't feel empathy for everybody at once, or in every one of their circumstances, that I should not feel anything at all for anyone? That's not how anything works. Life (or, as I believe, God) brings us into contact with all kinds of people experiencing different levels of joy and pain. It's natural to empathize with the people you're around, whatever they're feeling. Don't over-complicate it.
Because my customers don’t (and shouldn’t care) it’s a third party. If I caused it there is a chance I can fix it.
So you would rather be incompetent than powerless? Choice of third party vendor on client facing services is still on you, so maybe you prefer your incompetence be more direct and tangible?
Even still, you should have policies in place to mitigate such eventualities, that way you can focus the incompetence into systematic issues instead. The larger the company, the less acceptable these failures become. Lessons learned is a better excuse for a shake and break startup than an established player that can pay to be secure.
At some point, the finger has to be pointed. Personally, I don't dread it pointing elsewhere. Just means I've done my due D and C.
Your priority (in this comment atleast) is about the finger-pointing, while the parent's priority is wanting a fix to the issue at hand.
If customers expected third party downtime to not affect their thing then you shouldn't have picked a third party provider or spent extra resources on not having a single point of failure? If they were happy with choosing the third party with knowledge of depending on said third party provider, then it was an accepted risk.
When others cause problems then you can put your feet up and surf the web waiting for resolution. Oh, wait.
The problem is, I still get the wrong end of the stick when AWS or CF go down! Management doesn't care, understandably. They just want the money to keep coming in. It's hard to convince them that this is a pretty big problem. The only thing that will calm them down a bit is to tell them Twitter is also down. If that doesn't get them, I say ChatGPT is also down. Now NOBODY will get any work done! lol.
This is why you ALWAYS have a proposal ready. I literally had my ass saved by having tickets with reliability/redundancy work clearly laid out with comments by out of touch product/people managers deprioritizing the work after attempts to pull it off the backlog (in one infamous case for a notoriously poorly conceived and expensive failure of a project that haunted us again with lost opportunity cost).
The hilarious part of the whole story is that the same PMs and product managers were (and I cannot overemphasize this enough) absolutely militant orthodox agile practitioners with jira.
Every time a major cloud goes down, management tells us why don't we have a backup service that we can switch to. Then I tell them that a bunch of services worth a lot more than us are also down. Do you really want to spend the insane amount of resources to make sure our service stays up when the global internet is down?
Having an alt to Cloudflare isn’t preposterous.
Who decided to go with AWS of CF? If its a management decision tell them you need the resources to have a fallback if they want their system to be more reliable than AWS or CF.
Haha yeah I just got off the phone and I said, look, either this gets fixed soon or there's going to be news headlines with photographs of giant queues of people milling around in airports.
When I'm debugging something, I'm not usually looking for the solution to the problem; I'm looking for sufficient evidence that I didn't cause the problem. Once I have that, the velocity at which I work slows down
My manager once asked if he could have a "quick word". I said "velocity".
phewphoria
Well, at least something good came out of this incident.
Perfect.
Yup, that works.
it has to sound like a german word though
Is there a word for a feeling that there's gotta be a German word for this niche feeling?
Probably Deutschwortsehnsucht (https://www.iamexpat.de/education/education-news/german-word...)
You mean like when the Wortzusammensetzungsverdacht just hits you? (yeah, I just made that up, that's the beauty)
Fremdverfehlungserleichterung?
Entlastungvergnugen?
puhphorie
Maybe this isn’t great, but I get a hint of that feeling when I’m on an airplane and hear a baby crying. For a number of years, if I heard a baby crying, it was probably my baby and I had to deal with it. But now my kids are past that phase, so when I hear the crying, after that initial jolt of panic I realize that it isn’t my problem, and that does give me the warm fuzzies. Even though I do feel bad for the baby and their parents.
Related situation: you're at a family gathering and everyone has young kids running around. You hear a thump, and then some kid starts screaming. Conversation stops and every parent keenly listens to the screams to try and figure out whose kid just got hurt, then some other parent jumps up - it's not your kid! #phewphoria
You're not alone in this feeling. I occasionally smile when it's not my kid.
This is one of the secret joys of being a parent.
The German word “schadenfreude” means taking pleasure in someone else’s misfortune; enjoyment rather than relief.
since schaden is damage and freude is joy, not sure what it should be - maybe Schadeleichtig hmm...
>maybe Schadeleichtig
Maybe "Erleichterung" (relief)? But as a German "Schadenserleichterung" (also: notice the "s" between both compound word parts) rather sounds like a reduction of damage (since "Erleichterung" also means mitigation or alleviation).
right I thought of that at first and discarded it for that reason. Which the problem really is that the normal story of how Schadenfreude works as a bit of German language how to is that the component that it is other people's damage that is sparking joy is missing from the word itself, that interpretation must be known by the word user, if you were just creating the word and nobody had heard it before in the world it would be pretty reasonable for people to think you had just created a new word for masochism.
Schadenfriend?
You gain relief, but you don't exactly derive pleasure as it's someone you know that's getting the ass end of the deal
It's close enough to Schadenfreude but not really.
Schadenfreude
Nah, that's delight in someone else's misfortune. This is delight that the misfortune wasn't yours, which is slightly different.
4 years of German and I still don't quite "get" it :^) TY!
We have a saying:
You know how you measure eternity?
When you finish learning German.
Katastrophenverursachererleichterung
Katastrophenverursacherverlagerungserleichterung
Even better
Not quite, that’s more like taking pleasure in the misfortune of someone else. It’s close, but the specific relief bit that it is not _your_ misfortune is not captured
Internettet er vist ikke så stort :-)
Fætter! Hvor genialt at se dig her. :)
vindication?
schadenfuckup
The company where this colleague works? Cloudflare.
I woke up getting bombarded by multiple clients messages of sites not working, I shitted my pants because I've changed the config just yesterday. When I saw the status message "cloudflare down" I was so relieved.
Good that he worked it out so quick. I recently spent a day debugging email problems on Railway PaaS, because they silently closed an SMTP port without telling anyone.
How do we know your colleagues changes didn't take down Cloudflare though?
Good point. We should probably assume they did, until proven otherwise.
Guilty until proven innocent.
Do you guys work at Cloudflare? Do you mind reverting that change just in case?
Chances are still good that somewhere within Cloudflare someone really did do a global configuration push that brought down the internet.
When aliens study humans from this period, their book of fairy tales will include several where a terrible evil was triggered by a config push.
Plot twist: They work at Cloudflare
Even pornhub is down becuase it uses clouflare.
Is Cloudflare being down the work of conservative hackers and the rest of the internet is just collateral damage?
Wait for the post mortem ... It is a technical possibility, race condition propagates one customer config to all nodes... :-)
Did your colleague perhaps change the Cloudflare config again right now? Seems to be down again.
You should tell him his config change took down half the internet.
You missed a great opportunity to dead-pan him with something like "No, Bob, not just our site, you brought down the entire Internet, look at this post!"
> In short, a latent bug in a service underpinning our bot mitigation capability started to crash after a routine configuration change we made. That cascaded into a broad degradation to our network and other services. This was not an attack.
From the CTO, Source: https://x.com/dok2001/status/1990791419653484646
It still astounds me that the big dogs still do not phase config rollouts. Code is data, configs are data, they are one and the same. It was the same issue with the giant crowdstrike outage last year, they were rawdogging configs globally and a bad config made it out there and everything went kaboom.
You NEED to phase config rollouts like you phase code rollouts.
The big dogs absolutely do phase config rollouts as a general rule.
There are still two weaknesses:
1) Some configs are inherently global and cannot be phased. There's only one place to set them. E.g. if you run a webapp, this would be configs for the load balancer as opposed to configs for each webserver
2) Some configs have a cascading effect -- even though a config is applied to 1% of servers, it affects the other servers they interact with, and a bad thing spreads across the entire network
> Some configs are inherently global and cannot be phased
This is also why "it is always DNS". It's not that DNS itself is particularly unreliable, but rather that it is the one area where you can really screw up a whole system by running a single command, even if everything else is insanely redundant.
I don’t believe that there is anything necessarily which requires DNS configs to be global.
You can shard your service behind multiple names:
my-service-1.example.com
my-service-2.example.com
my-service-3.example.com …
Then you can create smoke tests which hit each phase of the DNS and if you start getting errors you stop the rollout of the service.
Sure, but that doesn't really help for user-facing services where people expect to either type a domain name in their browser or click on a search result, and end up on your website every time.
And the access controls of DNS services are often (but not always) not fine-grained enough to actually prevent someone from ignoring the procedure and changing every single subdomain at once.
> Sure, but that doesn't really help for user-facing services where people expect to either type a domain name in their browser or click on a search result, and end up on your website every time.
It does help. For example, at my company we have two public endpoints:
company-staging.com company.com
We roll out changes to company-staging.com first and have smoke tests which hit that endpoint. If the smoketests fail we stop the rollout to company.com.
Users hit company.com
That doesn’t help with rolling out updates to the DNS for company.com which is the point here. It’s always DNS because your pre-production smoke tests can’t test your production DNS configuration.
If I'm understanding it right, the idea is that the DNS configuration for company-staging.com is identical to that for company.com - same IPs and servers, DNS provider, domain registrar. Literally the only differences are s/company/company-staging/, all accesses should hit the same server with the same request other than the Host header.
Then you can update the DNS configuration for company-staging.com, and if that doesn't break there's very little scope for the update to company.com to go differently.
The purpose of a staged rollout is to test things with some percentage of actual real-world production traffic, after having already thoroughly tested things in a private staging environment. Your staging URL doesn't have that. Unless the public happens to know about it.
The scope for it to go wrong is the differences in real-world and simulation.
It's a good thing to have, but not a replacement for the concept of staged rollout.
But users are going to example.com. Not my-service-33.example.com.
So if you've got some configuration that has a problem that only appears at the root-level domain, no amount of subdomain testing is going to catch it.
I think it's uncharitable to jump to the conclusion that just because there was a config-based outage they don't do phased config rollouts. And even more uncharitable to compare them to crowdstrike.
I have read several cloudflare postmortems and my confidence in their systems is pretty low. They used to run their entire control plane out of a single datacenter which is amateur hour for a tech company that has over $60 billion in market cap.
I also don’t understand how it is uncharitable to compare them to crowdstrike as both companies run critical systems that affect a large number of people’s lives, and both companies seem to have outages at a similar rate (if anything, cloudflare breaks more often than crowdstrike).
https://blog.cloudflare.com/18-november-2025-outage/
> The larger-than-expected feature file was then propagated to all the machines that make up our network
> As a result, every five minutes there was a chance of either a good or a bad set of configuration files being generated and rapidly propagated across the network.
I was right. Global config rollout with bad data. Basically the same failure mode of crowdstrike.
It seem fairly logical to me? If a config change causes services to crash then rollout stops … at least in every phased rollout system i’ve ever built…
In a company I am no longer with I argued much the same when we rolled out "global CI/CD" on IAC. You made one change, committed and pushed, wham it's on 40+ server clusters globally. I hated it. The principal was enamored with it, "cattle not pets" and all that, but the result was things slowed down considerably because anyone working with it became so terrified of making big changes.
Then you get customer visible delays.
Because adversaries adapt quickly, they have a system that deploys their counter-adversary bits quickly without phasing - no matter whether they call them code or configs. See also: Crowdstrike.
You can't protect against _latent bugs_ with phased rollouts.
Wish this could rocket to the top of the comment thread, digging through hundreds of comments speculating about a cyberattack to find this felt silly
Configuration changes are dangerous for CF it seems, and knocked down $NET almost 4% today. I wonder what the industry wide impact is for each of these outages?
Pre market was red for all tech stocks today before the outage even happened
Yes, if anything it's bullish on CloudFlare because many investors don't realize how pervasive it is.
>Configuration changes are dangerous for CF it seems, and knocked down $NET almost 4% today. I wonder what the industry wide impact is for each of these outages?
This is becoming the "new normal." It seems like every few months, there's another "outage" that takes down vast swathes of internet properties, since they're all dependent on a few platforms and those platforms are, clearly, poorly run.
This isn't rocket surgery here. Strong change management, QA processes and active business continuity planning/infrastructure would likely have caught this (or not), as is clear from other large platforms that we don't even think about because outages are so rare.
Like airline reservations systems[0], credit card authorization systems from VISA/MasterCard, American Express, etc.
Those systems (and others) have outages in the "once a decade" or even much, much, longer ranges. Are the folks over at SABRE and American Express that much smarter and better than Cloudflare/AWS/Google Cloud/etc.? No. Not even close. What they are is careful as they know their business is dependent on making sure their customers can use their services anytime/anywhere, without issue.
It amazes me the level of "Stockholm Syndrome"[1] expressed by many posting to this thread, expressing relief that it wasn't "an attack" and essentially blaming themselves for not having the right tools (API keys, etc.) to recover from the gross incompetence of, this time at least, Cloudflare.
I don't doubt that I'll get lots of push back from folks claiming, "it's hard to do things at scale," and/or "there are way too many moving parts," and the like.
Other organizations like the ones I mention above don't screw they're customers every 4-6 months with (clearly) insufficiently tested configuration and infrastructure changes.
Yet many here seem to think that's fine, even though such outages are often crushing to their businesses. But if the customers of these huge providers don't demand better, they'll only get worse. And that's not (at least in my experience) a very deep or profound idea.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_reservations_system
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Pretty much everything is down (checking from the Netherlands). The Cloudflare dashboard itself is experiencing an outage as well.
Not-so-funny thing is that the Betterstack dashboard is down but our status page hosted by Betterstack is up, and we can't access the dashboard to create an incident and let our customers know what's going on.
Edit: wording.
Yep that's also my experience. Except HN because it does not use *** Cloudflare because it knows it is not necessary. I just wrote a blog titled "Do Not Put Your Site Behind Cloudflare if You Don't Need To" [1].
[1]: https://huijzer.xyz/posts/123/
Sadly, AI bots and crawlers have made CF the only affordable way to actually keep my sites up without incurring excessive image serving costs.
Those TikTok AI crawlers were destroying some of my sites.
Millions of images served to ByteSpider bots, over and over again. They wouldn't stop. It was relentless abuse. :-(
Now I've just blocked them all with CF.
> Now I've just blocked them all with CF.
Yeah, they for sure let nothing through right now. ;)
There isn't too much of a difference from their normal behavior.
Wouldn't it be trivial to just to write a uwf to block the crawler ips?
At time like this really glad we self-hosted.
No, since they're simply too many. For an e-commerce site I work for, we once had an issue where some bad-actor tried to crawl the site to set up scam shops. The list of IPs were way too broad, and the user-agents way too generic or random.
Could you not also use an ASN list like https://github.com/brianhama/bad-asn-list and add blocks of IPs to a blocklist (eg. ipset on Linux)? Most of the scripty traffic comes from VPSs.
Thanks to widespread botnets, most scrapers fall back to using "residential proxies" the moment you block their cloud addresses. Same load, but now you risk accidentally blocking customers coming from similar net blocks.
Blocking ASNs is one step of the fight, but unfortunately it's not the solution.
Hypothetically, as a cyber-criminal, I'd like to thank the blacklist industry for bringing so much money into criminal enterprises by making residential proxies mandatory for all scraping.
Its not one IP to block. Its thousands! And they're also scatter through different ip networks so no simple cidr block is possible. Oh, and just for the fun, when you block their datacenter ips they switch to hundreds of residential network ips.
Yes, they are really hard to block. In the end I switched to Cloudflare to just so they can handle this mess.
Wouldn't it be trivial to just to write a uwf to block the crawler ips?
Probably more effective would be to get the bots to exclude your IP/domain. I do this for SSH, leaving it open on my public SFTP servers on purpose. [1] If I can get 5 bot owners to exclude me that could be upwards of 250k+ nodes mostly mobile IP's that stop talking to me. Just create something that confuses and craps up the bots. With SSH bots this is trivial as most SSH bot libraries and code are unmaintained and poorly written to begin with. In my ssh example look for the VersionAddendum. Old versions of ssh, old ssh libraries and code that tries to implement ssh itself will choke on a long banner string. Not to be confused with the text banner file.
I'm sure the clever people here could make something similar for HTTPS and especially for GPT/LLM bots at the risk of being flagged "malicious".
[1] - https://mirror.newsdump.org/confuse-some-ssh-bots.html
About 90%+ of bots can not visit this URL, including real people that have disabled HTTP/2.0 in their browser.
Maybe :-)
But for a small operation, AKA just me, it's one more thing for me to get my head around and manage.
I don't run just one one website or one service.
It's 100s of sites across multiple platforms!
Not sure I could ever keep up playing AI Crawler and IP Whack-A-Mole!
I don't understand. What exactly are they doing, what are their goals? I'm not trying to argue, I genuinely don't get it.
edit: I guess I understand "AI bots scraping sites for data to feed LLM training" but what about the image serving?
Belated response as I called it a night over here in sunny Australia!
The image scraping bots are training for generative AI, I'm assuming.
As to why they literally scrape the same images hundreds of thousands of times?
I have no idea!
But I am not special, the bots have been doing it across the internet.
My main difference to other sites is that I operate a Tourism focused SAAS for local organisations and government tourist boards. Which means we have a very healthy amount of images being served per page across our sites.
We also do on the fly transformations for responsive images and formats. Which is all done through Cloudinary.
The Bytespider bot (Bytedance / TikTok) was the one that was being abusive for me.
How many requests is your site getting, and how long does your site require to process a request, and why is it that long?
Can you use per-IP rate limiting?
> Now I've just blocked them all with CF.
You realize it was possible to block bad actors before Cloudflare right? They just made it easier, not possible in the first place.
Bad actors now have access to tens of thousands of IPs and servers on the fly.
The cost of hardware and software resources these days is absolute peanuts compared to 10 years ago. Cloud services and APIs has made managing them also trivial as hell.
Cloudflare is simply a evolution in response to the other side also having evolved greatly, both legitimate and illegitimate users.
Of course :-)
And my image CDN blocked ByteSpider for me.
For a while I also blocked the entirety of Singapore due to all the bots coming out of AWS over there!
But it's honestly something I just dont need to be thinking about for every single site I run across a multitude of platforms.
Having said that, I will now look at the options for the business critical services I operate for clients!
Yes, I never understand this obsession for centralized services like Cloudflare. To be fair though, if our tiny blogs anyway had a hundred or so visitors monthly, does it matter if it had an outage for a day?
I think partially is not having to worry about certs is a nice reason to hide behind the proxy. Also, to help hide your IP address, I guess.
Of course, on the other hand, I know that relying on Cloudflare cert's is basically inviting a MITM attack.
> I think partially is not having to worry about certs is a nice reason to hide behind the proxy.
Use Caddy. I never worry about certs.
Interesting. I've done a lot of manual work to set up a whole nginx layer to properly route stuff through one domain to various self-hosted services, with way to many hard lessons when I started this journey (from trying to do manual setup without docker, to moving onto repeatable setups via docker, etc.).
The setup appears very simple in Caddy - amazingly simple, honestly. I'm going to give it a good try.
Or certbot-plugin-nginx if you prefer a bit less magic.
Don't you need a cert anyway to secure the connection from Cloudflare to your server?
Cloudflare explicitly supports customers placing insecure HTTP only sites behind a cloudflare HTTPS.
It's one of the more controversial parts of the business, it makes the fact that the traffic is unencrypted on public networks invisible to the end user.
You could use a self-signed cert, since cloudflare doesn't care about that.
Problem is when 2 billion Brazilian bots hit your blog daily and exhaust all resources, crashing it and preventing you from posting a new post.
If you host images as well, your bandwidth costs might skyrocket.
I was pretty much forced into putting a site I'm managing for a client behind cloudflare due to the above-mentioned issue.
~~two~~ three comments on that:
1. DDOS protection is not the only thing anymore, I use cloudflare because of vast amounts of AI bots from thousands of ASNs around the world crawling my CI servers (bloated Java VMs on very undersized hosts) and bringing them down (granted, I threw cloudflare onto my static sites as well which was not really necessary, I just liked their analytics UX)
2. the XKCD comic is mis-interpreted there, that little block is small because it's a "small open source project run by one person", cloudflare is the opposite of that
3. edit: also cloudflare is awesome if you are migrating hosts, did a migration this past month, you point cloudflare to the new servers and it's instant DNS propagation (since you didnt propagate anything :) )
Why are your CI servers open to the public network?
because we're an open source project that accepts pull requests on github and we'd like our PR submitters to see why their PRs are failing tests
Last time I tried this I got DDoS'd so I don't see a reason to step away from CF. That said, this is the price I pay
Does HN not experience DDOS? I would imagine being as popular as it is it'll experience DDOS.
It does: https://m5hosting.status.io/pages/incident/5407b8e2b00244251...
But turns out that's fine :).
> Issues are stable at this time. The targeted customer has implemented CloudFlare, and we have taken steps to mitigate this event.
I'm still confused. Does this mean that HN switches CF on or off in response to recent volume of bot traffic?
It’s that time of the year again where we all realize that relying on AWS and Cloudflare to this degree is pretty dangerous but then again it’s difficult to switch at this point.
If there is a slight positive note to all this, then it is that these outages are so large that customers usually seem to be quite understanding.
Unless you’re say at airport trying to file a luggage claim … or at the pharmacy trying to get your prescription. I think as a community we have a responsibility to do better than this.
> I think as a community we have a responsibility to do better than this.
I have always felt so, but my opinion is definitely in the minority.
In fact, I find that folks have extremely negative responses to any discussion of improving software Quality.
Merely reducing external dependencies causes people to come out in rashes.
A large proportion of “developers” enjoy build vs buy arguments far too much.
I always see such negative responses when HN brings up software bloat ("why is your static site measured in megabytes").
Now that we have an abundance of compute and most people run devices more powerful than the devices that put man on the moon, it's easier than ever to make app bloat, especially when using a framework like Electron or React Native.
People take it personally when you say they write poor quality software, but it's not a personal attack, it's an observation of modern software practices.
And I'm guilty of this, mainly because I work for companies that prioritize speed of development over quality of software, and I suspect most developers are in this trap.
What I find annoying, is people making fun of folks that choose to “roll their own.”
The typical argument that I see, is homemade encryption, which is quite valid.
However, encryption is just a tiny corner of the surface.
Most folks don’t want to haul in 1MB of junk, just so they can animate a transition.
Well, I guess I should qualify that: Most normal folks wouldn't want to do that, but, apparently, it's de rigueur for today's coders.
I think we have a new normal now though. Most web devs starting now don't know a world without React/Vue/Solid/whatever. Like, sure you can roll your own HTML site with JS for interactivity, but employers now don't seem to care about that; if you don't know React then don't bother.
You aren’t cloudflare’s customer in these examples. It depends on the companies that are actually paying for and using the service to complain. Odds are that they won’t care on your behalf due to how our society is structured.
Not really sure how our community is supposed to deal with this.
“We” are the ones making the architecture and the technical specs of these services. Taking care for it to still work when your favourite FAANGMC is down seems like something we can help with.
> If there is a slight positive note to all this, then it is that these outages are so large that customers usually seem to be quite understanding.
Which only shows that chasing five 9s is worthless for almost all web products. The idea is that by relying on AWS or Cloudflare you can push your uptime numbers up to that standard, but these companies themselves are having such frequent outages that customers themselves don't expect that kind reliability from web products.
> It’s that time of the year again
It's monthly by now
If I choose AWS/cloudflare and we're down with half of the internet, then I don't even need to explain it to my boss' bosses, because there will be an article in the mainstream media.
If I choose something else, we're down, and our competitors aren't, then my overlords will start asking a lot of questions.
Yup. AWS went down at a previous job and everyone basically took the day off and the company collectively chuckled. Cloudflare is interesting because most execs don’t know about it so I’d imagine they’d be less forgiving. “So what does cloudflare do for us exactly? Don’t we already have aws?”
And if everyone else is down, and you are not, you will get no credit.
Or _you_ aren't down, but a third-party you depend on is (auth0, payment gateway, what have you), and you invested a lot of time and effort into being reliable, but it was all for less than nothing, because your website loads but customers can't purchase, and they associate the problem with you, not with the AWS outage.
Right. Whereas if we get whacked with a random DDoS, that's my fault.
In reality it is not half of the internet. That is just marketing. I've personally noticed one news site while others were working. And I guess sites like that will get the blame.
Happy to hear anyone's suggestions about where else to go or what else to do in regards to protecting from large-scale volumetric DDoS attacks. Pretty much every CDN provider nowadays has stacked up enough capacity to tank these kind of attacks, good luck trying to combat these yourself these days?
Somehow KiwiFarms figured it out with their own "KiwiFlare" DDOS mitigation. Unfortunately, all of the other Cloudflare-like services seem exceptionally shady, will be less reliable than Cloudflare, and probably share data with foreign intelligence services I have even less trust for than the ones Cloudflare possibly shares them with.
Is a DDOS more frequent and/or worse than stochastic CDN outages?
Anubis and/or Bunny are good alternatives/combination depending on your exact needs
- https://anubis.techaro.lol/
- https://bunny.net/
Unfortunately Anubis doesn't help where my pipe to the internet isn't fat enough to just eat up all the bandwidth that the attacker has available. Renting tens of terabits of capacity isn't cheap and DDoS attacks nowadays are in the scale of that. BunnyCDN's DDoS protection is unfortunately too basic to filter out anything that's ever so slightly more sophisticated. Cloudflare's flexibility in terms of custom rulesets and their global pre-trained rulesets (based on attacks they've seen in the past) is imo just unbeatable at this time.
The Bunny Shield is quite similar to the Cloudflare setup. Maybe not 100% overlap of features but unless you’re Twitter or Facebook, it’s probably enough.
I think at the very least, one should plan the ability to switch to an alternative when your main choice fails… which together with AWS and GitHub is a weekly event now.
We live in the world of mass internet surveillance. DDoS like this are not very common, partly because people who do it keep going to jail.
Why do people on a technical website suggest this? It's literally the same snake oil as Cloudflare. Both have an endgame of total web DRM; they want to make sure users "aren't bots". Each time the DRM is cracked, they will increase its complexity of the "verifier". You will be running arbitrary code in your big 4 browser to ensure you're running a certified big 4 browser, with 10 trillion man hours of development, on an certified OS.
Because there is a real problem that needs to be solved one way or another.
Anubis doesn't solve anything, bud.
bunny.net is not reachable for me too... really funny
https://imgur.com/a/8gh3hOb
All the edges are gone! :)
I clicked the image thinking I was seeing the message you were getting (geoblocked in the UK), then realised I'd clicked an imgur link :facepalm:
(Note: Zero negative sentiment towards imgur here)
Just accept that a DDoS might happen and that there's nothing you can do about it. It's fine, it's just how the Internet works.
That was possible when a DDos was usually still an occasional attack by a bad actor.
Most time I get ddosed now it's either Facebook directly, Something something Azure or any random AI.
That sounds like an app-level (D)DoS, which is generally something you can mitigate yourself.
It's harder when it's a new group of IPs and happens 2-3x every month.
And if you do rule based blocking they just change their approach. I am constantly blocking big corps these days, barely any work with normal bad actors.
And lots of real users time wasted for captchas.
How (or to what end) would Facebook want to directly DoS someone?
What do they even have an spider for? I never saw any actual traffic with source Facebook. I don't understand either, but it's their official IPs, their official bot headers and it behaves exactly like someone who wants my sites down.
Does it make sense? Nah, but is it part of the weird reality we live in. Looks like it
I have no way of contacting Facebook. All I can do is keep complaining on hackernews whenever the topic arrises.
Edit:// Oh and I see the same with Azure, however there I have no list of IPs to verify it's official just because it looks like it.
I got DoS'd by them once, email not HTTP traffic though. Quick slip of their finger and bam low cost load testing.
So accept that your customers won't be able to use your services whenever some russian teenager is bored? Yeah, good luck with justifying that choice.
And how often does that happen?
For the service I'm responsible for, 4 times in the last 24 hours.
Congratulations, you're the exception rather than the norm.
Oh no, we had 30 minutes of downtime this year :(
5 9's is like 7 minutes a year. They are breaking SLAs and impacting services people depend on
Tbh though this is sort of all the other companies fault, "everyone" uses aws and cf and so others follow. now not only are all your chicks in one basket, so is everyone elses. When the basket inevitably falls into a lake....
Providers need to be more aware of their global impact in outages, and customers need to be more diverse in their spread.
99.999% availability is around 5 minutes or so of downtime per year.
> Providers need to be more aware of their global impact in outages
So you think the problem is they aren't "aware"?
These kinds of outages continue to happen and continue to impact 50+% of the internet, yes, they know they have that power, but they dont treat changes as such, so no, they arent aware. Awareness would imply more care in operations like code changes and deployments.
Outages happen, code changes occur; but you can do a lot to prevent these things on a large scale, and they simply dont.
Where is the A/B deployment, preventing a full outage? What about internally, where was the validation before the change, was the testing run against a prodlike environment or something that once resembled prod but hasnt forever?
They could absolutely mitigate impacting the entire global infra in multiple ways, and havent, despite their many outages.
They are aware. They don't want to pay the cost benefit tradeoff. Education won't help - this is a very heavily argued tradeoff in every large software company.
I do think this is tenable as long as these services are reliable. Even though there have been some outages I would argue that they’re incredibly reliable at this point. If though this ever changes the costs to move to a competitor won’t be as simple as pushing a repository elsewhere, especially for AWS. I think that’s where some of the potential danger lies.
> 30 minutes of downtime
> this is tenable as long as these services are reliable
do you hear yourself, this is supposed to be a distributed CDN. imagine if HTTP had 30 minutes of downtime a year.
and judging by the HN post age, we're now past minute 60 of this incident.
> and judging by the HN post age, we're now past minute 60 of this incident.
Huh? It's been back up during most of this time. It was up and then briefly went back down again but it's been up for a while now. Total downtime was closer to 30 minutes
twitter still down for me
Twitter is down while Mastodon is proudly and strongly still standing up. I knew this day would come.
i also can host apps for 100 users
> especially for AWS
CF can be just as difficult if not more to migrate off of especially when using things like durable objects
Cloudflare dashboard is down-ish, not totally down. If you're persistent you can turn off the turnstile and proxy.
It took a few minutes but I got https://hcker.news off of it.
I can't sign in since Turnstile is down so I can't complete the captcha to log in.
I also can't log in via Google SSO since Cloudflare's SSO service is down.
Not saying not to do this to get through, but just as an observation, it’s also the sort of thing that can make these issues a nightmare to remediate, since the outage can actually draw more traffic just as things are warming up, from customers desperate to get through.
But then, that’s what Cloudflare signed up to be.
I'm already logged in on the cloudflare dashboard and trying to disable the CF proxy, but getting "404 | Either this page does not exist, or you do not have permission to access it" when trying to access the DNS configuration page.
I think there is a big business opportunity here. Make a site that let companies put their status update on local vps for $100.
Atlassian has this business model sewn up
https://www.atlassian.com/software/statuspage
It's worth noting that cloudflare's status page is hosted there. Pretty good proof that it works
And I got a 504 error (served by CloudFront) on that status page earlier. The error message suggested there may have been a great increase in traffic that caused it.
Maybe that's precisely what Cloudflare did and now their status page is down because it's receiving an unusual amount of traffic that the VPS can't handle.
They should have had Cloudflare on it.
Even the Cloudflare status page, hosted by Atlassian Statuspage, is suffering. Probably due to the traffic crush.
Status pigeons.
on-demand status balancing!
Same here. We’re using OhDear. The status page is available but I can’t post an incident because their service is also behind Cloudflare.
Co-founder here, we'll be working on better ways to handle this over the coming days.
Update: our app is available again without Cloudflare, you'll be able to post updates to status pages smoothly again.
Could always just use a status page that updates itself. For my side project Total Real Returns [1], if you scroll down and look at the page footer, I have a live status/uptime widget [2] (just an <img> tag, no JS) which links to an externally-hosted status page [3]. Obviously not critical for a side project, but kind of neat, and was fun to build. :)
[1] https://totalrealreturns.com/
[2] https://status.heyoncall.com/svg/uptime/zCFGfCmjJN6XBX0pACYY...
[3] https://status.heyoncall.com/o/zCFGfCmjJN6XBX0pACYY
This is unrelated to the cloudflare incident but thanks a lot for making that page. I keep checking it from time to time and it's basically the main data source for my long term investing.
I appreciate that, thank you! :)
All my stuff is working. Things on GCP. Things on Fly.io. Tooling I use.
"Only" 10% of the internet is behind Cloudflare so far ;)
Happy for you :)
I am curious about these two things:
1- Does GCP also have any outages recently similar to AWS, Azure or CF? If a similar size (14 TB?) DDoS were to hit GCP, would it stand or would it fail?
2- If this DDoS was targeting Fly.io, would it stand? :)
I actually spoke too soon, and accept I have egg on my face!
Apparently prisma's `npm exec prisma generate` command tries to download "engine binaries" from https://binaries.prisma.sh, which is behind... guess what...
So now my CI/CD is broken, while my production env is down, and I can't fix it.
Amazing lol
I spoke too soon as well :) Apparently this wasn't a DDoS attack (or more correctly, they kind of DDoS themselves)
For GCP network that would be a rounding error. Of course GCP sometimes has outages too, all providers do.
Seems like workers are less affected and maybe betterstack has decided to bypass cloudflare "stuff" for the status pages? (maybe to cut down costs). My site is still up though some GitHub runners did show it failed at certain points.
I have a workers + kv app that seems fine right now.
Pretty sure they went down for a while because I have 4xx errors they returned but apparently it was short-lived. I wonder if their workers infra. failed for a moment and that let to a total collapse of all of their products?
BetterStack did report issues with some of their services, but they were not very informative.
When its back up, do yourself a favour and rent a $5/mo vps in another country from a provider like OVH or Hetzner and stick your status page on that.
"Yes but what if they go down" - it doesnt matter, having it hosted by someone who can be down for the same reason as your main product/service is a recipe for disaster.
Definitely. Tangentially, I encountered 504 Gateway Timeout errors on cloudflarestatus.com about an hour ago. The error page also disclosed the fact that it's powered by CloudFront (Amazon's CDN).
Or use a service like https://updown.io/ (I host my status page there).
https://cachethq.io/ is great for this
Amusingly enough, it is down right now because of Cloudflare :-)
Been using Cachet for quite a while before inevitably migrating to Atlassian's Statuspage.io. I'm a huge fan of self-hosting and self-managing every single thing in existence but Cachet was just such a PITA to maintain and there was just no other good alternative to Cachet that was also open source.
This is a big one.
Thankfully the usual social media are still up ... oh wait https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c629pny4gl7o
I don't get why you need such a service for a status page with 99.whatever% uptime. I mean, your status page only has to be up if everything else is down, so maybe 1% uptime is fine.
/s
There's something maliciously satisfying about seeing your own self-hosted stuff working while things behind Cloudflare or AWS are broken. Sure, they have like four more nines that me, but right now I'm sitting pretty.
My (s)crappy personal site was up during the AWS outage, Azure outage and now Cloud flare outage. And I have it for 2 months only! Maybe I can add a tracker somewhere, might be fun.
Can recommend Uptime Kuma for this purpose: https://github.com/louislam/uptime-kuma
I actually have exactly this, paired with ntfy. I was thinking more like badges: "was up during AWS outage in 2025" etc.
Uptime Kuma already has some automatically generated badges[1], but not for specific events. Your could manually built your own custom ones based on the same framework[2] though.
[1] https://github.com/louislam/uptime-kuma/wiki/Badge
[2] https://shields.io/
Where would you put it? :) (I have one on the oracle free tier)
I just selfhost it, but that has the disadvantage that it also went out during my ISP's and Cloudflares outage. ;)
My selfhosted sites are down because of the cloudflares proxy. Ugh
Only my 'www' is affected ie my blog. Other self hosted like jellyfin and vaultwarden work fine
How do you deal with DNS? I'm hosting something on a Raspberry Pi at home, and I had recently moved the DNS to Cloudflare. It's quite funny seeing my small personal website being down, although quite satisfying seeing both the browser and host with a green tick while Cloudflare is down.
> How do you deal with DNS?
DNS is actually one of the easiest services to self-host, and it's fairly tolerant of downtime due to caching. If you want redundancy/geographical distribution, Hurricane Electric has a free secondary/slave DNS service [0] where they'll automatically mirror your primary/master DNS server.
[0]: https://dns.he.net/
I don't have experience with a dynDNS setup like you describe, hosting from (probably) home. But my domains are on a VPS (and a few other places here and there) and DNS is done via my domain reseller's DNS settings pages.
Never had an issue hosting my stuff, but as said - don't yet have experience hoting something from home with a more dynamic DNS setup.
Pangolin is awesome. It's like self-hosted Cloudflare Tunnels
https://github.com/fosrl/pangolin
Host the DNS on the Pi too?
This is a real problem for some some “old-school enterprise” companies that use Oracle, SAP, etc. along with the new AWS/CF based services. They are all waiting around for new apps to come back up while their Oracle suite/SAP are still functioning. There is a lesson here for some of these new companies selling to old-school companies.
I was just able to save a proxied site. Then the dashboard went down again. I didn't even know it was still on. It's really not doing anything for performance because the traffic is quite low.
just a couple of days ago, I've moved my self hosted stuff from Cloudflare :)
Is it me or has there been a very noticeable uptick in large scale infra-level outages lately? AWS, Cloudflare, etc have all been way under whatever SLA they publish.
Coincidentally, large tech companies have been conducting mass layoffs and claim they're going to rely on AI much more to replace junior developers.
And they are offshoring roles to lower quality devs.
Interestingly, chatgpt was unavailable due to the same cloudflare outage.
Imagine vibe coding something in production, it breaks half the internet, then you can't vibe code it back because it broke the LLM providers. A real catch-22 for the modern age!
By similar thinking, you could blame large tech companies if they hired too many juniors.
Juniors, at least, have the capacity to learn.
That does seem to be a coincidence, as the recent outages making headlines (including this one according to early reports) have been associated with huge traffic spikes. It seems DDoS are reaching a new level.
AWS's most recent blow-up was not a DDoS
Maybe a laid-off engineer is bored and started orchestrating DDoS campaigns in their newly-found free time.
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For me the only silver lining to all these cloud outages is now we know that their published SLA times mean absolutely nothing. The number of 9's used to at least give an indication of intent of reliability, now they are twisted to whatever metric the company wants to represent and dont actually represent guaranteed uptime anywhere.
So true. AWS for example gives only platform credits in the event of an outage. Basically no recourse or insurance.
Doesn’t everyone do that? I’ve never worked for a place that the base policy wasn’t credits. You might have special contract language stating otherwise, but for almost everyone, it’s credits.
Yeah everyone does that. Perhaps it was wrong to single out AWS! None of them should. In any other business, you get your money back.
I think it's crazy that the SLA just gives you a credit. Even worse! In the contracts I've seen, you have to prove the duration of the outage and sometimes even that there was commercial impact using your own monitoring. What a pain in the ass.
It would be easy for me to tell my customers exactly what they need to say to get the maximum, but I've been told not to do that, so I guess it's on them to figure it out.
Some of the other commenters here have posited a "vibe code theory". As the amount of vibe code in production increases, so does the number of bugs and, therefore, the number of outages.
None of the recent major outages were traced down to "vibe coding" or anything of the sort. They appear to be the kind of misconfigurations and networking fuckups that existed since Internet became more complex than 3 routers.
The "vibe thinking" trend where people stop using their brain and rely on whatever random output the LLM tells them is harder to diagnose, but it's certainly there and at least as bad as vibe coding.
What about the “vibe thinking” trend where people project their own narratives on to every situation, even if the information available shows that it’s a rise in large scale DDoS attacks?
Unfortunately, not a trend. Just human nature. I hope they'll find a fix for that one day.
How likely are we to know when a "misconfiguration or networking fuckup" is due to someone asking ChatGPT how to do the task?
>misconfigurations and networking fuckups that existed since Internet became more complex than 3 routers.
Yet there has been an uptick in frequency of outages only in the recent few months. Correlation correlation.
Why assume that these misconfigs are not the result of someone asking AI how to do them?
Is it a statistically significant uptick though? Random events doesn't mean equally spaced, sometimes there will be more, sometimes there will be less
Wasn't the recent AWS a race condition that's existed since before vibe coding was a thing?
Speaking of "vibe-coding", I wonder how much their own outage is affecting their ability to vibe-code their way out of it.. :-)
The openai login page says:
> Some of the other commenters here have posited a "vibe code theory". As the amount of vibe code in production increases, so does the number of bugs and, therefore, the number of outages.
Likely this coupled with the mass brain damage caused by never-ending COVID re-infections.
Since vaccines don't prevent transmission, and each re-infection increases the chances of long COVID complications, the only real protection right now is wearing a proper respirator everywhere you go, and basically nobody is doing that anymore.
Are you being hyperbolic? It's clearly not this, and very likely not GP's proposal either.
No, and it's easy to find ample research backing it up.
Agreed.
Most people are not self reflective reflective enough to notice. Need to trust the studies.
Far more plausible than the AI ideas.
I find it far more likely these are smart people running without oversight for years pre-COVID, relying on being smart at 2am change windows. Now half or a full std. dev. lower on the IQ scale, hubris means fewer guard rails before change, and far lower ability to recover during change window.
Exactly. The effects can include both "brain fog" as well as impaired judgement, since the brain areas affected have to do with executive function.
We can even see (measure) it in driving behavior patterns.
Another data point is how Hollywood has gone to great lengths to keep the whole thing hush hush, because such a downer is bad for business:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ZeroCovidCommunity/comments/1ncmclw...
I somehow doubt that if a majority of the population was a full standard deviation lower on the IQ scale that nobody would be talking about it, that there wouldn't be more research, and that it wouldn't be covered by the news whatsoever.
Keep in mind many parties benefit from capitalizing on hysterical hype. And you're going to sit here and tell me they're all keeping it covered up for some reason?
This comes off like the extreme left-wing equivalent of extreme right-wingers that say the "world is run by the evil jewish cabal" and when people ask for proof, they retort "everyone is hiding it so none exists".
Experts are talking about it. The news is not. I know who I'm siding with.
It comes to no surprise that media owned by capital interests is falling in line with said capital interests.
https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-co...
I agree with you about the IQ thing but am not seeing how this is a left-wing thing.
For a select few, maybe, but it's obviously not enough of the population to make a significant difference in downtime outages in large tech corporations.
It's far more likely due to either AI, or more directly, layoffs and offshoring, as that affects hundreds of thousands of their employees.
I have become dumber without having contracted covid or other respiratory diseases (which could have been covid). 2020s have been the era of fascism, war and communities getting torn, which does not really help with stress levels and intellectual performance.
The theory I’ve heard is holiday deploy freezes coupled with Q4 goals creates pressure to get things in quickly and early. It’s all been in the last month or so which does line up.
What's different about this Q4 vs the last 20 years of Q4s?
The obvious answer is to cancel holidays.
My theory is a state-sponsored actor targeting some of these services, but maybe that's just too 'tinfoil hat' of me, who knows.
There are usually very comprehensive post mortems for these events, and none have suggested that at all
This only amplifies the often-repeated propaganda about the "very powerful" enemies of democracy, who in fact are very fragile dictatorships. There's enough incompetence at tech companies to f up their own stuff.
My theory is DNS.
Somewhere, at a floating desk behind a wall of lava lamps, in a nyancatified ghostty terminal with 32 different shader plugins installed:
You're absolutely right! I shouldn't have force pushed that change to master. Let me try and roll it back. * Confrobulating* Oh no! Cloudflare appears to be down and I cannot revert the change. Why don't you go make a cup of coffee until that comes back. This code is production ready, it's probably just a blip.
If it's any guidance, US cyber risk insurance (which covers among other things disruptions due to supplier outages) has continuously dropped in price since Q1 2023, with a handful of percent per year.
If you excuse the sloppy plot manually transcribed from market index data: https://i.xkqr.org/cyberinsurancecost.png
Don't forget Azure Front Door / half of Azure.
Yeah, but that's just standard for Azure.
I suspect the number of outages is the same, but the number of sites putting all of their eggs into these two baskets has grown considerably.
Unless you're making that determination statistically, it's probably pereidolia. See here: https://behavioralscientist.org/yates-expect-unexpected-why-...
It's you. Everything does down once in a while.
GCP was down recently as well
Well AWS runs on Cloudflare...so thanks Cloudflare team!
Any chance our friend Vladamir is behind this?
it definitely feels like it.
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Ironically, DownDetector seems to be down because it protects its site with Cloudflare Turnstile... which is also down!
I noticed this too!
The report there for AWS also skyrocketed, but I guess it's probably false positives?
Even many non tech people have begun to associate Internet wide outages with “aws must be down” so I imagine many of them searching “is aws down” and for down detector, a hit is a down report, so it will report aws impacts even when the culprit is cloudflare in this case
interesting, maybe "AWS is down" will become the new "the server is down" that some non-tech people throw around when anything unexpected happen on their computer?
How did we get to a place where either Cloudflare or AWS having an outage means a large part of the web going down? This centralization is very worrying.
Because no one cares enough, including users.
Oddly this centralization allows a complete deferral of blame without you even doing anything: if you’re down, that’s bad. But if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
It also reduces your incentive to change, if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else. Even if your web site is up they’ll assume it isn’t.
I’m not saying this is a good thing but I’m simply being realistic about why we ended up where we are.
As a user I do care, because I waste so much time on Cloudflare's "prove you are human" blocking-page (why do I have to prove it over and over again?), and frequently run on websites blocking me entirely based on some bad IP-blacklist used along with Cloudflare.
Unfortunately the internet sucks in 2025.
If you have a site with valuable content the LLM crawlers hound you to no end. CF is basically a protection racket at this point for many sites. It doesnt even stop the more determined ones but it keeps some away.
Yep for anyone unaware of how awful things truly are, look up what a "residential proxy" is. Back in my day we called that a botnet.
Oh, they're still botnets. We just look the other way because they're useful.
And they're pretty tame as far as computer fraud goes - if my device gets compromised I'd much rather deal with it being used for fake YouTube views than ransomware or a banking trojan.
You can make a little bit of cash on the side letting companies use your bandwidth a bit for proxying. You won’t even notice. $50/month. Times are tough!
Of course the risk here being whatever nefarious or illegal shit is flowing through your pipes, which you consented to and even received consideration for.
No worries it’s encrypted traffic
> If you have a site with valuable content the LLM crawlers hound you to no end.
The site doesn't even need to have valuable content. Any content at all.
CF would be a protection racket only if CF is the cause of the problem CF is charging money to solve.
And yet half the HN front page every day is promoting LLM stuff.
"The internet sucks", yes, but we're doing it to ourselves.
Unfortunately the problem isn't just "the internet sucks" it's "the internet sucks, and everyone uses it" - meaning people are not doing stuff offline, and a lot of our lives require us to be online.
The Internet is huming along beautifully
It is the Web that is being degraded
Would you rather not have LLMs?
Absolutely. They have dramatically worsened the world, with little to no net positive impact. Nearly every (if not all) positive impacts have an associated negative that that dwarfs it.
LLMs aren't going anywhere, but the world would be a better place if they hadn't been developed. Even if they had more positive impacts, those would not outweigh the massive environmental degradation they are causing or the massive disincentive they created against researching other, more useful forms of AI.
LLM's to me sound like a "boiling the ocean" kind of approach to solving a problem.
IMO LLMs have been a net negative on society, including my life. But I'm merely pointing out the stark contrast on this website, and that fact that we can choose to live differently.
Are you anti-AI in general, or are you unhappy about the current LLMs?
I am not anti-AI, nor unhappy about how any current LLM works. I'm unhappy about how AI is used and abused to collective detriment. LLM scraper spam leading to increased centralization and wider impacting failures is just one example.
Your position is similar to saying that medical drugs have been a net negative on society, because some drugs have been used and abused to collective detriment (and other negative effects, such as doctors prescribing pills instead of suggesting lifestyle changes). Does it mean that we would be better off without any medical drugs?
My position is that the negatives outweigh the positives, and I don't appreciate your straw man response. It's clear your question is not genuine and you're here to be contrarian.
I honestly wanted to understand your position, but after such a reaction, I'm not going to engage in any discussions with you.
Yes.
A solid secondary option is making LLM scraping for training opt-in, and/or compensating sites that were/are scraped for training data. Hell, maybe then you could not knock websites over incentivizing them to use Cloudflare in the first place.
But that means LLM researchers have to respect other people's IP which hasn't been high on their todo lists as yet.
bUt ThAT dOeSn'T sCaLe - not my fuckin problem chief. If you as an LLM developer are finding your IP banned or you as a web user are sick of doing "prove you're human" challenges, it isn't the website's fault. They're trying to control costs being arbitrarily put onto them by a disinterested 3rd party who feels entitled to their content, which it costs them money to deliver. Blame the asshole scraping sites left and right.
Edit: and you wouldn't even need to go THAT far. I scrape a whole bunch of sites for some tools I built and a homemade news aggregator. My IP has never been flagged because I keep the number of requests down wherever possible, and rate-limit them so it's more in line with human like browsing. Like so much of this could be solved with basic fucking courtesy.
Not to speak for the other poster, but... That's not a good-faith question.
Most of the problems on the internet in 2025 aren't because of one particular technology. They're because the modern web was based on gentleman's agreements and handshakes, and since those things have now gotten in the way of exponential profit increases on behalf of a few Stanford dropouts, they're being ignored writ large.
CF being down wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if their service wasn't one of the main ways to protect against LLM crawlers that blatantly ignore robots.txt and other long-established means to control automated extraction of web content. But, well, it is one of the main ways.
Would it be one of the main ways to protect against LLM web scraping if we investigated one of the LLM startups for what is arguably a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, arrested their C-suite, and sent each member to a medium-security federal prison (I don't know, maybe Leavenworth?) for multiple years after a fair trial?
Probably not.
I'm Sure there will be an investigation... By the SEC when the bubble pops and takes the S&P with it. No prison though, probably jobs at the next ponzi scheme
Well said.
hard yes, all of the technical discussion aside, the constant advertising deluge of every company touting AI is mind numbing.
It's helped me learn some things quicker, but I definitely prefer the old days.
Can I raise that to no LLMs or SEO?
Yes
LLMs have become a crucial compendium of knowledge, that had become hidden behind SEO
Absolutely. And while we're at it, let's do away with social media.
Good lord yes. No question.
Yes
Yes
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, they are terrible and more a negative force than a positive one in every way imaginable. I would take no LLMs all day every day.
I'd also take no war, no murder, and no disease, but that's not the world we live in.
I just realized, why don't they have some "definitely human" third party cookie that caches your humanness for 24h or so? I'm sure there's a reason, I've heard third party cookies were less respected now, but can someone chime in on why this doesn't work and save a ton of compute?
Because people will solve the challenge once, and then use the cookie in automation tools. It already happens with shorter expiration cookies.
Thanks, I'm now shaking my head at my naivete :)
https://developers.cloudflare.com/waf/tools/privacy-pass/
Are you really posting this today?
Yes, there are several, and the good one (linked below) lets you use the "humanness" token across different websites without them being able to use it as a tracking signal / supercookie. It's very clever.
https://github.com/ietf-wg-privacypass/base-drafts
https://privacypass.github.io/
I assume that will be for Apple (and eventually Alphabet) to implement via digital IDs linked to real world IDs.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/11/apple-introduces-digi...
Don't worry, Sam Altman is selling the protection too -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_(blockchain)
But that's not a problem caused by Cloudflare.
That's a problem caused by bots and spammers and DDoSers, that Cloudflare is trying to alleviate.
And you generally don't have to prove it over and over again unless there's a high-risk signal associated with you, like you're using a VPN or have cookies disabled, etc. Which are great for protecting your privacy, but then obviously privacy means you do have to keep demonstrating you're not a bot.
You might say the problem CloudFlare is causing is lesser than the ones it's solving, but you can't say they're not causing a new, separate problem.
That they're trying counts for brownie points, it's not an excuse to be satisfied with something that still bothers a lot of people. Do better, CloudFlare.
Do better, how?
If you have any ideas on how to protect against bad actors in a way that is just as effective but easier for users, please share it.
Because as far as I can tell, this isn't a question of effort. It's a question of fundamental technological limitations.
"We have decided to endlessly punish you for using what few tools you have to avoid being exploited online, because it makes our multi-billion dollar business easier. Sucks to be you."
Small non-profits and personal blogs encounter the same problem. It has nothing to do with being a multi-billion dollar corp.
If you have a better technological solution, we'd all love to know it. Because right now, site owners are using the best tools available.
Criticizing when there's no other solution isn't very useful, is it?
> It has nothing to do with being a multi-billion dollar corp.
Cloudflare is the multi-billion dollar corporation. It has everything to do with that, because they are the primary cause, and their resources and position make them by far the best equipped to solve it.
> Criticizing when there's no other solution isn't very useful, is it?
Of course it is. Without criticism, the growing problem goes unacknowledged and allowed to persist. It should instead be continually called out until it is prioritized, and some of those billions should be spent on researching a solution. (Similarly, a company found to be dumping waste into a river should be held responsible for cleaning up the mess they created. Even if that turns out to be expensive or difficult.)
Expecting a single affected person to solve it for the big corp that caused it is unrealistic. And blaming the victims because they use VPNs or disable cookies is... unhelpful.
That's an absurd position to take.
CloudFlare is protecting sites from DDoS attacks and out-of-control bots. They're not the ones causing them. If CloudFlare wasn't asking you to prove you're human, many times the site would be down entirely because it couldn't keep up. Or the site would simply shut down because it couldn't afford it.
And this isn't a question of spending some fraction of billions on researching a solution. There fundamentally isn't one, if you understand how the internet works. This is a problem a lot of people would like to solve better, believe me.
So, yes, criticizing Cloudflare here is as useful as criticizing it for not having faster-than-light communication. There's nothing else it can do. It's not "blaming the victims".
I'm going to assume you simply don't have the technical understanding of how the internet works. Because the position you're taking is simply absurd and nonsensical, and there's no way you would write what you're writing otherwise.
Congrats, you now know what it's like to be a daily Tor user trying to hit normie sites from exit node IPs xD
Why would anyone be a daily Tor user and trying to hit clear-net sites on top of that? This sounds like a bizarre usecase.
Privacy through uniformity, operational security by routine, herd immunity for privacy, traffic normalization, "anonymity set expansion", "nothing to hide" paradox, etc.
I.e., if you use Tor for "normie sites", then the fact that someone can be seen using Tor is no longer a reliable proxy for detecting them trying to see/do something confidential and it becomes harder to identify & target journalists, etc. just because they're using Tor.
Huh never thought about that. I wonder how many people do that? Seems like a public service.
It certainly feels like one at times!
Tor Browser has ~1M daily users. Tons of people use it for hitting sites that may be blocked in their country or they want to have some privacy like view pregnancy or health related articles and etc.
In addition to the reasons in sibling comment, this also acts as a filter for low-quality ad-based sites; same reason I close just about any website that gives me a popup about a ToS agreement.
I hate it as much (and the challenge time seems to be getting longer, 10s lately for me, what the hell?)
But we can all say thank you to all the AI crawlers who hammer websites with impossible traffic.
I mean, it was a problem before AI crawlers with just bots and attacks in general.
It wasn't nearly as bad.
This is essentially the entire IT excuse for going to anything cloud. I see IT engineers all the time justifying that the downtime stops being their problem and they stop being to blame for it. There's zero personal responsibility in trying to preserve service, because it isn't "their problem" anymore. Anyone who thinks the cloud makes service more reliable is absolutely kidding themselves, because everyone who made the decision to go that way already knows it isn't true, it just won't be their problem to fix it.
If anyone in the industry actually cared about reliability and took personal stake in their system being up, everyone would be back on-prem.
Reliability is not even how the cloud got sold to the C Suite. Good God, when my last company started putting things on Azure back in 2015 stuff would break weekly, usually on Monday mornings.
No, the value proposition was always about saving money, turning CapEx into OpEx. Direct quote from my former CEO maybe 9 years ago: We are getting out of the business of buying servers.
Cloud engineering involves architecting for unexpected events: retry patterns, availability zones, multi-region fail over, that sort of thing.
Now - does it all add up to cost savings? I could not tell you. I have seen some case studies, but I also have been around long enough to take those with a big grain of salt.
No the value was bypassing IT.
You no longer needed them to approve a new machine, you just spun it up how you want. Sped things up massively for a while.
It's amazing how there's so many cybersecurity incidents now. Bypassing IT will always backfire spectacularly, IT is the people that stop you from dumbing.
The opposite was/is true. If your cloud box can only be used by two people and IT don’t even know about it then IT can never be persuaded to provide the keys to the rest of the company as they were predisposed to doing.
I saw this stuff too many times, and it is precisely why the cloud exploded in use in about 2010.
What you're telling me is two people potentially have regulated or confidential data not secured by IT, which nobody knows if got leaked.
For many organizations, that's literally illegal, and anyone who does this should be fired.
One notable example was signing keys for builds for distribution actually. And IT had a habit of handing them out to absolutely everyone. Being able to audit who did the signing was done in spite of IT who could, of course, never be persuaded of the merit of any process they don’t own.
But sure jump to more conclusions if you want.
I won't discount your IT can be bad, but also if you're keeping something as core to your security as signing keys somewhere your IT can't audit, you are just as bad. And your IT won't be the ones fired when your keys leak.
You are under the erroneous impression IT would be fired for leaking keys and not simply impose a new process that blames everyone else.
And this is in Fortune 500 of course.
>, that's literally illegal, and anyone who does this should be fired.
I mean yea, but who knows how long that box would sit around before it was discovered.
That might have been true for some kind of organization, but definitely not for every kind. On the other side, there were start-ups that wanted the elasticity and no commitments. But both sides at least partially liked the "it's not on me anymore" feature.
> ...does it all add up to cost savings?
IMHO it adds, but only if you are big enough. Netflix level. At that level, you go and dine with Bezos and negotiate a massive discount. For anyone else, I’d genuinely love to see the numbers that prove otherwise.
> There's zero personal responsibility
Unfortunately, this seems to be the unspoken mantra of modern IT management. Nobody wants to be directly accountable for anything, yet everyone wants to have their fingerprints on everything. A paradox of collaboration without ownership.
Cloud providers have formalized these deals actually. If you promise to spend X amount over Y period, you get Z discounts.
And this is not reserved instances, this is an org level pricing deal. Some have been calling it anti-competitive and saying the regulators need to look at the practice.
> IMHO it adds, but only if you are big enough. Netflix level. At that level, you go and dine with Bezos and negotiate a massive discount. For anyone else, I’d genuinely love to see the numbers that prove otherwise.
It adds if you're smart about using resources efficiently, at any level. And engineer the system to spin up / spin down as customers dictate.
For situations where resources are allocated but are only being utilized a low percentage (even < 50% in some cases), it is not cost effective. All that compute / RAM / disk / network etc. is just sitting there wasted.
I mean in the end it's about making a trade off that makes sense for your business.
If the business can live with a couple of hours downtime per year when "cloud" is down, and they think they can ship faster / have less crew / (insert perceived benefit), then I don't know why that is a problem.
Users have no options because... everything has been centralized. So it doesn't matter if users care or not.
Users are never a consideration today anyway.
It is a trade-off between convenience and freedom. Netflix vs buying your movies. Spotify vs mp3s. Most tech products have alternatives. But you need to be flexible and adjust your expectations. Most people are not willing to do that
That's just a post hoc rationalization. If the capital owners don't want something to happen then market dynamics don't matter a lick
The issue is that real life is not adaptable. Resources and capital are slow.
That's the whole issue with monopolies for example, innit? We envision "ideal free market dynamics" yet in practice everybody just centralizes for efficiency gains.
> The issue is that real life is not adaptable. Resources and capital are slow. > That's the whole issue with monopolies for example, innit?
The much bigger issue with monopolies is that there is no pressure on the monopolist to compete on price or quality of the offering.
Right, and my point is that "ideal free market dynamics" conveniently always ignore this failure state that seems to always emerge as a logical consequence of its tenets.
I don't have a better solution, but it's a clear problem. Also, for some reason, more and more people (not you) will praise and attack anyone who doesn't defend state A (ideal equilibrium). Leaving no room to point out state B as a logical consequence of A which requires intervention.
The definition of a monopoly basically resolves to "those companies that don't get pressured to meaningfully compete on price or quality", it's a tautology. If a firm has to compete, it doesn't remain a monopoly. What's the point you're making here?
There absolutely are options but we aren't using them because nobody cares enough about these downsides. bsky is up, with Mastodon you even have choice between tons of servers and setting up your own. Yet, nobody cares enough about the occasional outage to switch. It's such a minor inconvenience that it won't move the needle one bit. If people actually cared, businesses would lose customers and correct the issue.
It’s time to revolt.
More like it's time for the pendulum to swing back...
We had very decentralized "internet" with BBSes, AOL, Prodigy, etc.
Then we centralized on AOL (ask anyone over 40 if they remember "AOL Keyword: ACME" plastered all over roadside billboards).
Then we revolted and decentralized across MySpace, Digg, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
Then we centralized on Facebook.
We are in the midst of a second decentralization...
...from an information consumer's perspective. From an internet infrastructure perspective, the trend has been consistently toward more decentralization. Initially, even after everyone moved away from AOL as their sole information source online, they were still accessing all the other sites over their AOL dial-up connection. Eventually, competitors arrived and, since AOL no longer had a monopoly on content, they lost their grip on the infrastructure monopoly.
Later, moving up the stack, the re-centralization around Facebook (and Google) allowed those sources to centralize power in identity management. Today, though, people increasingly only authenticate to Facebook or Google in order to authenticate to some 3rd party site. Eventually, competitors for auth will arrive (or already have ahem passkeys coughcough) and, as no one goes to Facebook anymore anyway, they'll lose grip on identity management.
It's an ebb and flow, but the fundamental capability for decentralization has existed in the technology behind the internet from the beginning. Adoption and acclimatization, however, is a much slower process.
These centralized services do and did solve problems. I'm old enough to remember renting a quarter rack, racking my own server and other infrastructure, and managing all that. That option hasn't gone away, but there are layers of abstraction at work that many people probably haven't and don't want to be exposed to.
Aaand even if we ignore the "benefit" of Cloudflare and AWS outages being blamed on them, rather than you, what does uptime look like for artisanaly hosted services on a quarter rack vs your average services on AWS and Cloudflare?
There is an upside too. Us humans, we also need our down time occasionally.
Oh, if only computers could continue working while I take a break, or teams continue working while I’m on PTO…
Businesses and peoples’ livelihoods are online nowadays, it’s not just scrolling Twitter for fun.
The internet can’t afford to just “give people mental health breaks.”
> Businesses and peoples’ livelihoods are online nowadays
What happened to having a business continuity plan? E.g. when your IT system is down, writing down incoming orders manually and filling them into the system when it's restored?
I have a creeping suspicion that people don't care about that, in which case they can't really expect more than to occasionally be forced into some downtime by factors outside of their control.
Either it's important enough to have contingencies in place, or it's not. Downtime will happen either way, no matter how brilliant the engineers working at these large orgs are. It's just that with so much centralization (probably too much) the blast range of any one outage will be really large.
My wife and I own a small theatre. We can process orders in-store just fine. Our customers can even avoid online processing fees if they purchase in-store. And if our POS system went down, we could absolutely fall back to pencil and paper.
Doesn't change the fact that 99% of our ticket sales happen online. People will even come in to the theatre to check us out (we're magicians and it's a small magic shop + magic-themed theatre - so people are curious and we get a lot of foot traffic) but, despite being in the store, despite being able to buy tickets right then and there and despite the fact that it would cost less to do so ... they invariably take a flyer and scan the QR code and buy online.
We might be kind of niche, since events usually sell to groups of people and it's rare that someone decides to attend an event by themselves right there on the spot. So that undoubtedly explains why people behave like this - they're texting friends and trying to see who is interested in going. But I'm still bringing us up as an example to illustrate just how "online" people are these days. Being online allows you to take a step back, read the reviews, price shop, order later and have things delivered to your house once you've decided to commit to purchasing. That's just normal these days for so many businesses and their customers.
Does the flyer make it clear that in person sales will have a discount?
I’m not so sure about that. The pre-internet age had a lot of forced “mental health breaks”. Phone lines went down. Mail was delayed. Trains stalled. Businesses and livelihoods continued to thrive.
The idea that we absolutely need 24/7 productivity is a new one and I’m not that convinced by it. Obviously there are some scenarios that need constant connectivity but those are more about safety (we don’t want the traffic lights to stop working everywhere) than profit.
Just want to correct the record here, as someone who worked at a local CLEC where we took availability quite seriously before the age of the self-defeatist software engineer.
Phone lines absolutely did not go down. Physical POTS lines (Yes, even the cheap residential ones) were required to have around 5 9s of availability, or approximately 5 minutes per year. And that's for a physical medium affected by weather, natural disasters, accidents, and physical maintenance. If we or the LEC did not meet those targets contracts would be breached and worst case the government would get involved.
Okay, as someone who also worked in that era I’ll be pedantic: internal phone systems went down. I experienced it multiple times so I certainly know it happened.
also, the availability of the routing and switching infrastructure of the internet must be atleast a factor higher then that of the world wide web.
Physical network equipment is redundant and reliant enough that getting 5 minutes of downtime or less per year is totally doable.
the web however... is a far different beast (and in my opinion, with an incentive which does not factor in reliability)
> we absolutely need 24/7 productivity is a new one
We don't need it, the owners want it
We don't need it, but we might need it to maintain our quality of life now.
Most businesses are totally fine if they have a few hours of downtime. More uptime is better, but treating an outage like a disaster or an e-commerce site like a power plant is more about software engineer egos than business or customer needs.
If AWS is down, most businesses on AWS are also down, and it’s mostly fine for those businesses.
If an hour outage costs you on average a million dollars, you have another 8.759 billion dollars to cover for the loss...
Shitposting on twitter should never have been a business or livelihood in the first place.
The vast majority of the internet can afford that though, and not the entire thing needs to operate the same way.
I’ve worked in cloud consulting for a little over five years. I can say 95% of the time when I discuss the cost and complexity tradeoffs of their websites being down vs going multi region or god forbid “multi cloud”, they shrug and say, it will be fine if they are down for a couple of hours.
This was the same when I was doing consulting inside (ie large companies willing to pay the premium cost of AWS ProServe consultants) and outside working at 3rd party companies.
Actually, yes, it can. Chill a bit.
> “give people mental health breaks.”
try going outside
Why not?
It's better to have diverse, imperfect infrastructure, than one form of infra that goes down with devastating results.
I'm being semi-flippant but people do need to cope with an internet that is less than 100% reliable. As the youth like to say, you need to touch grass
Being less flippant: an economy that is completely reliant on the internet is one vulnerable to cyberattacks, malware, catastrophic hardware loss
It also protects us from the malfeasance or incompetence of actors like Google (who are great stewards of internet infrastructure... until it's no longer in their interests)
globally coordinated
Who cares if a couple of websites are down a day or even two?
As long as HN is up and running, everything is going to be O.K.!
There was a problem posting your comment.
So Say We All!
Wealthy, investment-bloated software companies will be fine.
Smaller companies that provide real world services or goods to make a much more meagre living that rely on some of the services sold to them by said software companies will be impacted much more greatly.
Losing a day or two of sales to someone who relies on making sales every day can be a growing hardship.
This doesn’t just impact developers. It’s exactly this kind of myopic thinking that leads to scenarios like mass outages.
You don't lose a day of sales, customers come back when the site is up again.
My friend, that is just not reality. And it's not just e-commerce t shirt slingers I am talking about here.
You have to realize when software companies tell the world they should rely on their works, they world will do so. And once that occurs, the responsibility is all on the software companies to meet the expectations they built in people!
It's mad that this industry works so hard to claim the trust of millions of people, then shirks it as soon as it's convenient.
It's shameful.
Some of them do. There are very few products or services where all of them will.
Sure, but some people who were going to buy your competitors product forget about that and will instead find your product. I assume it all evens out.
> But if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
In my direct experience, this isn't true if you're running something even vaguely mission-critical for your customers. Your customer's workers just know that they can't do their job for the day, and your customer's management just knows that the solution they shepherded through their organization is failing.
It's really quite funny, many of the ACTUALLY vital systems to running the world as we know it are running off of very different softwares. Cloudflare appears to have a much higher % of non vital systems running on it than say something like akamai.
If akamai went down i have a feeling you'd see a whole lot more real life chaos.
i also find the sentiment of "well we use a third party so blame them" completely baffeling.
if you run anything even remotely mission critical, not having a plan B which is executable and of which you are in control (and a plan C) will make you look completely incompetent.
There are very, very few events which some people who run mission critical systems accept as force majeur. Most of those are of the scale "national emergency" or worse.
>There are very, very few events which some people who run mission critical systems accept as force majeur. Most of those are of the scale "national emergency" or worse.
And why should anyone be surprised? It's been about 80 years since "The buck stops here."[0] had any real relevance. And more's the pity.
[0] https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-buck-stops-here.html
> if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else
In this case, the internet should be down more often.
If the internet is down is what it takes to get you to put it down once in a while, I think thats probably the problem.
100% this. While in my professional capacity I'm all in for reliability and redundancy, as an individual, I quite like these situations when it's obvious that I won't be getting any work done and it's out of my control, so I can go run some errands to or read a book, or just finish early.
> if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else.
oh no
Which "user" are you referring to? Cloudflare users or end product users?
End product users have no power, they can complain to support and maybe get a free month of service, but the 0.1% of customers that do that aren't going to turn the tide and have anything change.
Engineering teams using these services also get "covered" by them - they can finger point and say "everyone else was down too."
Many people care, but none of them can (sufficiently) change the underlying incentive structure to effect the necessary changes.
> if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
Which changes nothing to you actually being down, youre only down more. CF proxies always sucked - not your domain, not your domain...
But Spotify was not down. One social media was down.
This:
> if you’re down, that’s bad. But if you’re down, Spotify is down, social media is down… then “the internet is broken” and you don’t look so bad.
is just marketing. If you are down with some other websites it is still bad.
Admittedly when I wrote that I was thinking about the recent AWS outage. Anecdotally, I asked friends and family about their experience and they assumed the internet was down. Almost everything at my work runs on Google cloud so we were still running but we observed a notable dip in traffic during the outage all the same.
> it is still bad
No doubt. But there’s a calculation to make, is it bad enough to spend the extra money on mitigations, to hire extra devops folks to manage it all… and in the majority of end user facing cases the answer is no, it isn’t.
Where I've worked and we've been in the cloud I've always promoted just running in one AZ, I run my own things in one Hetzner DC (hel1). I've done hybrid cloud as well and in that case we only have one AZ for the on-premise stuff anyways (plus offsite backup)
That one time when an AZ goes down and your infra successfully fails over to the other two isn't worth it for a lot of my scale companies, ops consultants seem to be chasing high cloud spend to justify their own high cost. I also factor in that I live in Sweden where most infrastructure outages are exceptionally rare.
Ofc it depends on what kind of company you are and what you're providing.
> If you are down with some other websites it is still bad.
In some cases, absolutely. For the vast majority, it really, really doesn't matter.
(Source: my personal website is down and nobody cares, including me)
> Because no one cares enough, including users.
When have users been asked about anything?
On the other hand, it is cool to be up when the internet is down
Eh? It's because they are offering a service too good to refuse.
The internet this day is fucking dangerous and murderous as hell. We need Cloudflare just to keep services up due to the deluge of AI data scrapers and other garbage.
> Because no one cares enough, including users.
this is like a bad motivational speaker talk.. heavy exhortations with a dramatic lack of actual reasoning.
Systems are difficult, people. It is "incentives" of parties and lockin by tech design and vendors, not lack of individual effort.
Also it's free (the basic domain protection offered by CF anyway)
More like "don't have choice". It's not like service provider gonna go to competition, because before you switch, it will be back.
Frankly it's a blessing, always being able to blame the cloud that management forced company to migrate to be "cheaper" (which half of the time turns out to be false anyway)
> It also reduces your incentive to change, if “the internet is down” people will put down their device and do something else. Even if your web site is up they’ll assume it isn’t.
I agree. When people talk about the enshittification of the internet, Cloudflare plays a significant role.
[dead]
Many reasons but DDoS protection has massive network effects. The more customers you have (and therefore bandwidth provision) the easier it is to hold up against a DDoS, as DDoS are targeting just one (usually) customer.
So there are massive economies of scale. Small CDN with (say) 10,000 customers and 10mbit/sec per customer can handle 100gbit/s DDoS (way too simplistic, but hopefully you get the idea) - way too small.
If you have the same traffic provisioned on average per customer and have 1 million customers, you can handle a DDoS 100x the size.
Only way to compete with this is to massively overprovision bandwidth per customer (which is expensive, as those customers won't pay more just for you to have more redundancy because you are smaller).
In a way (like many things in infrastructure) CDNs are natural monopolies. The bigger you get -> the more bandwidth and PoP you can have -> more attractive to more customers (this repeats over and over).
It was probably very astute of Cloudflare to realise that offering such a generous free plan was a key step in this.
Your argument is technically flawed.
In a CDN, customers consume bandwidth; they do not contribute it. If Cloudflare adds 1 million free customers, they do not magically acquire 1 million extra pipes to the internet backbone. They acquire 1 million new liabilities that require more infrastructure investment.
All you are doing is echoing their pitch book. Of course they want to skim their share of the pie.
I imagine every single customer is provisioned based on some peak expected typical traffic and that's what they base their capital investment in bandwidth on.
However most customers are rarely at their peak, this gives you tremendous spare capacity to use to eat DDoS attacks, assuming that the attacks are uncorrelated. This gives you huge amounts of capacity that's frequently doing nothing. Cloudflare advertise this spare capacity as "DDoS protection."
I suppose in theory it might be possible to massively optimise utilisation of your links, but that would be at the cost of DDoS protection and might not improve your margin very meaningfully, especially is customers care a lot about being online.
> In a CDN, customers consume bandwidth; they do not contribute it
They contribute money which buys infrastructure.
> If Cloudflare adds 1 million free customers,
Is the free tier really customers? Regardless most of them are small that it doesn't cost cloudflare much anyways. The infrastructure is already there anyways. Its worth it to them for the good will it generates which leads to future paying customers. It probably also gives them visibility into what is good vs bad traffic.
1 million small sites could very well cost less to cloudflare than 1 big site.
You're missing the economies of scale part.
OP is saying it's cheaper overall for a 10 million customer company to add infrastructure for 1 million more than it is for a 10,000 customer company to add infrastructure for 1000 more people.
If you're looking at this as a "share of the pie", it's probably not going to make sense. The industry is not zero sum.
You aren't understanding economy of scale, and peak to average ratios.
The same reason I use cloud compute -- elastic infrastructure because I can't afford the peaks -- is the same reason large service providers "work".
It's funny how we always focus on Cloudflare, but all cloud providers have this same concentration downside. I think it's because Cloudflare loves to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
The "economies of scale" defense of Cloudflare ignores a fundamental reality: 23.8 million websites run on Cloudflare's free tier versus only 210,000 paying customers or so. Free users are not a strategic asset. They are an uncompensated cost, full stop. Cloudflare doesn't absorb this loss out of altruism; they monetize it by building AI bot-detection systems, charging for bot mitigation, and extracting threat intelligence data. Today's outage was caused by a bug in Cloudflare's service to combat bots.
That's AI bots, BTW. Bots like Playwright or Crawl4AI, which provide a useful service to individuals using agentic AI. Cloudflare is hostile to these types of users, even though they likely cost websites nothing to support well.
The "scale saves money" argument commits a critical error: it counts only the benefits of concentration while externally distributing the costs.
Yes, economies of scale exist. But Cloudflare's scale creates catastrophic systemic risk that individual companies using cloud compute never would. An estimated $5-15 billion was lost for every hour of the outage according to Tom's Guide. That cost didn't disappear. It was transferred to millions of websites, businesses, and users who had zero choice in the matter.
Again, corporations shitting on free users. It's a bad habit and a dark pattern.
Even worse, were you hoping to call an Uber this morning for your $5K vacation? Good luck.
This is worse than pure economic inefficiency. Cloudflare operates as an authorized man-in-the-middle to 20% of the internet, decrypting and inspecting traffic flows. When their systems fail, not due to attacks, but to internal bugs in their monetization systems, they don't just lose uptime.
They create a security vulnerability where encrypted connections briefly lose their encryption guarantee. They've done this before (Cloudbleed), and they'll do it again. Stop pretending to have rational arguments with irrational future outcomes.
The deeper problem: compute, storage, and networking are cheap. The "we need Cloudflare's scale for DDoS protection" argument is a circular justification for the very concentration that makes DDoS attractive in the first place. In a fragmented internet with 10 CDNs, a successful DDoS on one affects 10% of users. In a Cloudflare-dependent internet, a DDoS, or a bug, affects 50%, if Cloudflare is unable to mitigate (or DDoSs themselves).
Cloudflare has inserted themselves as an unremovable chokepoint. Their business model depends on staying that chokepoint. Their argument for why they must stay a chokepoint is self-reinforcing. And every outage proves the model is rotten.
hang on, you're reading some kind of cloudflare advocacy in my post. apologies if i implied that. i don't like to come off as a crank is all. IMO cloudflare is an evil that needs to be defeated. i'm just explaining how their business model "works" and why massive economy of scale matters, to support the GP poster.
i don't even think they are evil because of the concentration of power, that's just a problematic issue. the evil part is they convince themselves they aren't the bad guys. that they are saving us from ourselves. that the things they do are net positives, or even absolute positives. like the whole "let's defend the internet from AI crawlers" position they appointed themselves sheriff on, that i think you're referencing. it's an extremely dangerous position we've allowed them to occupy.
> they monetize it
yes, and they can't do this without the scale.
> scale saves money
any company, uber for example, can design their infra to not rely on a sole provider. but why? their customers aren't going to leave in droves when a pretty reliable provider has the occasional hiccup. so it's not worth the cost, so why shouldn't they externalize it? uber isn't in business to make the internet a better place. so yes, scale does save money. you're arguing something at a higher principle than how architectural decisions are made.
i'm not defending economy of scale as a necessary evil. i'm just backing up that it's how cloudflare is built, and that it is in fact useful to customers.
In my opinion, DDoS is possible only because there is no network protocol for a host to control traffic filtering on upstream providers (deny traffic from certain subnets or countries). In this case everybody would prefer write their own systems rather than rely on a harmful monopoly.
The recent Azure DDoS used 500k botnet IPs. These will have been widely distributed across subnets and countries, so your blocking approach would not have been an effective mitigation.
Identifying and dynamically blocking the 500k offending IPs would certainly be possible technically -- 500k /32s is not a hard filtering problem -- but I seriously question the operational ability of internet providers to perform such granular blocking in real-time against dynamic targets.
I also have concerns that automated blocking protocols would be widely abused by bad actors who are able to engineer their way into the network at a carrier level (i.e. certain governments).
> 500k /32s is not a hard filtering problem
Is this really true? What device in the network are you loading that filter into? Is it even capable of handling the packet throughput of that many clients while also handling such a large block list?
But this is not one subnet. It is a large number of IPs distributed across a bunch of providers, and handled possibly by dozens if not hundreds of routers along the way. Each of these routers won't have trouble blocking a dozen or two IPs that would be currently involved in a DDoS attack.
But this would require a service like DNSBL / RBL which email providers use. Mutually trusting big players would exchange lists of IPs currently involved in DDoS attacks, and block them way downstream in their networks, a few hops from the originating machines. They could even notify the affected customers.
But this would require a lot of work to build, and a serious amount of care to operate correctly and efficiently. ISPs don't seem to have a monetary incentive to do that.
It also completely overlooks the fact that some of the traffic has spoofed source IP addresses and a bad actor could use automated black holing to knock a legitimate site offline.
> a bad actor could use automated black holing to knock a legitimate site offline.
No, in my concept the host can only manage the traffic targeted at it and not at other hosts.
That already exists… that's part of cloudflare and other vendors mitigation strategy. There’s absolutely no chance ISPs are going to extend that functionality to random individuals on the internet.
What traffic would you request the upstream providers to block if getting hit by Aisuru? Considering the botnet consists of residential routers, those are the same networks your users will be originating from. Sure, in best case, if your site is very regional, you can just block all traffic outside your country - but most services don't have this luxury.
Blocking individual IP addresses? Sure, but consider that before your service detects enough anomalous traffic from one particular IP and is able to send the request to block upstream, your service will already be down from the aggregate traffic. Even a "slow" ddos with <10 packets per second from one source is enough to saturate your 10Gbps link if the attacker has a million machines to originate traffic from.
In many cases the infected devices are in developing countries where none of your customers is. Many sites are regional, for example, a medium business operating within one country, or even city.
And even if the attack comes from your country, it is better to block part of the customers and figure out what to do next rather than have your site down.
Could it not be argued that ISPs should be forced to block users with vulnerable devices?
They have all the data on what CPE a user has, can send a letter and email with a deadline, and cut them off after it expires and the router has not been updated/is still exposed to the wide internet.
My dad’s small town ISP called him to say his household connection recently started saturating the link 24/7 and to look into whether a device had been compromised.
(Turns out some raspi reseller shipped a product with empty uname/password)
While a cute story, how do you scale that? And what about all the users that would be incapable of troubleshooting it, like if their laptop, roku, or smart lightbulb were compromised? They just lose internet?
And what about a botnet that doesn’t saturate your connection, how does your ISP even know? They get full access to your traffic for heuristics? What if it’s just one curl request per N seconds?
Not many good answers available if any.
> While a cute story, how do you scale that? And what about all the users that would be incapable of troubleshooting it, like if their laptop, roku, or smart lightbulb were compromised? They just lose internet?
Uh, yes. Exactly and plainly that. We also go and suspend people's driver licenses or at the very least seriously fine them if they misbehave on the road, including driving around with unsafe cars.
Access to the Internet should be a privilege, not a right. Maybe the resulting anger from widespread crackdowns would be enough of a push for legislators to demand better security from device vendors.
> And what about a botnet that doesn’t saturate your connection, how does your ISP even know?
In ye olde days providers had (to have to) abuse@ mailboxes. Credible evidence of malicious behavior reported to these did lead to customers getting told to clean up shop or else.
Xfinity did exactly this to me a few years ago. I wasn't compromised but tried running a blockchain node on my machine. The connection to the whole house was blocked off until I stopped it.
It could be argued that ISPs should not snoop on my traffic, barring a court order.
> here is no network protocol for a host to control traffic filtering on upstream providers (deny traffic from certain subnets or countries).
There is no network protocol per se, but there is commercial solutions like fortinet that can block countries iirc, but to note that it's only ip range based so it's not worth a lot
I think parent means: there no network protocol which can propagate blocking in sane manner between providers (something like bgp for firewalls)
edit: yes, you can you bgp to blockhole subnet traffic - the standard doesn't play well if you want blackhole unrelated subnets from upstream network
Unless you filter at the far end of the bottleneck you still go offline.
I'm pretty sure BGP magic will let you blackhole a whole subnet.
And how many companies want to also be able to build out their own CDN?
Not every company can be an expert at everything.
But perhaps many of us could buy a different CDN than the major players if we want to reduce the likelihood of mass outages like this though.
Yeah, I went to HN after the third web page didn't work. I am not just worried about the single point of failure, I am much more worried about this centralization eventually shaping the future standards of the web and making it de facto impossible to self-host anything.
Well that and the fact that when 99% goes through a central party, then that central party will be very interesting for authoritarian governments to apply sweeping censorship rules to.
It is already nearly impossible/very expensive in my country to be able to get a public IP address (Even IPv6) which you could host on. World is heavily moving towards centrally dependant on these big Cloud providers.
What part of the world has any ipv6 limitations? In the USA An ISP will give you a /48 from their /32 if you have any colo arrangement without even a blink. That gives you 2^16 networks with essentially infinite number of hosts on each network. Zero additional charge.
> eventually shaping the future standards of the web and making it de facto impossible to self-host anything
Eventually?
Another one that worries me is Let's Encrypt.
It is not as bad as Cloudflare or AWS because certificates will not expire the instant there is an outage, but considers that:
- It serves about 2/3 of all websites
- TLS is becoming more and more critical over time. If certificates fail, the web may as well be down
- Certificate lifetimes are becoming shorter and shorter, now 90 days, but Let's Encrypt is now considering 6 days, with 47 days being planned as a minimum
- An outage is one thing, but should a compromise happen, that would be even more catastrophic
Let's Encrypt is a good guy now, but remember that Google used to be a good guy in the 2000s too!
(Disclaimer: I am tech lead of Let's Encrypt software engineering)
I'm also concerned about LE being a single point of failure for the internet! I really wish there were other free and open CAs out there. Our goal is to encrypt the web, not to perpetuate ourselves.
That said, I'm not sure the line of reasoning here really holds up? There's a big difference between this three-hour outage and the multi-day outage that would be necessary to prevent certificate renewal, even with 6-day certs. And there's an even bigger difference between this sort of network disruption and the kind of compromise that would be necessary to take LE out permanently.
So while yes, I share your fear about the internet-wide impact of total Let's Encrypt collapse, I don't think that these situations are particularly analogous.
Agree, I’ve thought about this one too. The history of SSL/TLS certs is pretty hacky anyway in my opinion. The main problem they are solving really should have been solved at the network layer with ubiquitous IPsec and key distribution via DNS since most users just blindly trust whatever root CAs ship with their browser or OS, and the ecosystem has been full of implementation and operational issues.
Let’s Encrypt is great at making the existing system less painful, and there are a few alternatives like ZeroSSL, but all of this automation is basically a pile of workarounds on top of a fundamentally inappropriate design.
There's not really a way around the initial trust problem with consumer oriented certs though. Yours could reduce the number of initially trusted down to one I think but not any further.
its a shame DANE never took off. If we actually got around to running a trusted DNSSEC based DNS system and allowed clients to create certificates thanks to DANE, we would be in a far more resilient setup compared to what we are now.
But DNSSEC was hard according to some, and now we are running a massive SPOF in terms of TLS certificates.
It didn't "not take off" --- it didn't work. You couldn't run it on the actual Internet with actual users, at least not without having a fallback path that attackers could trigger that meant DANE was really just yet another CA, only this one you can't detect misbehavior or kill it when it does misbehave.
I'll bite: DNSSEC isn't a massive SPOF but TLS certificates are?
Google was always a for-profit operation. Let's Encrypt/ISRG could still go rotten but there are less incentives for them to do so as a non-profit.
Mostly since the AWS craze started a decade ago, developers have gone away from Dedicated servers (which are actually cheaper, go figure), which is causing all this mess.
It's genuinely insane that many companies are designing a great amount of fallbacks... on the software level but almost none is thought on the hardware/infrastructure level, common-sense dictate that you should never host everything on a single provider.
I tried as hard as I could to stay self hosted (and my backend is, still), but getting constant DDoS attacks and not having the time to deal with fighting them 2-3x a month was what ultimately forced me to Cloudflare. It's still worse than before even with their layers of protection, and now I get to watch my site be down a while, with no ability to switch DNS to point back to my own proxy layer, since CF is down :/
This is wild. Was your website somehow controversial? Ive been running many different websites for over 30+ years now, and have never been the target of a DDOS. The closest I’ve seen was when one website had a blind time based sql injection vulnerability and the attacker was abusing it, all the SLEEP() injected into the database brought the server to a crawl. But that’s just one attacker from a handful of IPs, hardly what i would call a DDOS.
I made the mistake of telling people it was hosted on a Pi cluster in a YouTube video a couple years ago, and asked nobody to try DDoSing it. I was a bit more naive thinking the YouTube viewer community was more like HN where people may joke about it, but nobody would actually do it.
I was wrong, and ever since I've dealt with a targeted attack (which was evolving as I added more CF firewall rules). At this point it's taken care of, but only because I have most things completely blocked at the CF firewall layer.
Until I changed job recently, I spent the past 8 years working in an area of tech that many people on places like HN and Reddit think that the work is a horrific waste of effort (DRM and content security for a streaming company).
The idea that if companies like my former employer would stop doing DRM their audience would embrace it is rife idealism. But based on bitter experience so enough people will do bad things just for the lulz that you need to cover your ass.
My home lab will never have an open port, I'll always put things behind a CDN or zero trust system, even then...
FWIW, it's worthwhile just for educational reasons to look at abuseipdb.com quite revealing.
I'm a lay person, but do you mean DRM isn't just copy-protection? Is it also network security?
It wasn't really a comment on the tech of DRM but of the business threats that require its use.
That being said, streaming content security is more than just DRM and DRM is more than just copy protection. There's a whole suite of tools inside DRM systems to manage content access at different levels and rulesets that can be applied for different situations. It's still fundamentally controlling an encrypted bitstream however. But I've implemented a great deal more than just DRM in order to build a better content security platform. Transit level controls, advanced token schemes, visible/invisible watermarking, threat/intrusion detection and abuse detection, there's quite a bit that can be implemented.
Jeff the reason why I think is that youtube community is more main-stream and I would consider you to be a really nice youtuber but even that might attract some bad faith actors just because of how main-stream youtube is as well compared to HN which is more niche-overall
(also congrats on 1 million subscribers but I know you must be tired of listening it but have a nice day jeff! Your videos are awesome!)
When I was younger and living in military dorms, I put a old throw away laptop hosting a simple website via Apache on the internet. Every time I checked the log it'd be full of so many random, wild spurts of attacks (granted I had basically 0 legit traffic).
I think people sometimes mistake legitimate traffic spikes for DDOS attacks. My blog has the former, but no site I have ever hosted has seen the latter.
With the state of constant attack from AI scrapers and DDOS bots, you pretty much need to have a CDN from someone now, if you have a serious business service. The poor guys with single prem boxes with static HTML can /maybe/ weather some of this storm alone but not everything.
Yeah this is the gist of it. Cloudflare provides an important service that is quite challenging to implement by yourself.
This is the sad reality behind it. My websites would be constantly down because of AI scrapers. If anyone knows a good alternative, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg I am very open to hear!
I self hosted on one of the company’s servers back in the late 90s. Hard drive crashes (and a hack once, through an Apache bug) had our services (http, pop, smtp, nfs, smb, etc ) down for at least 2-3 days (full reinstall, reconfiguration, etc).
Then, with regular VPSs I also had systems down for 1-2 days. Just last week the company that hosts NextCloud for us was down the whole weekend (from Friday evening) and we couldn’t get their attention until Monday.
So far these huge outages that last 2-5 hours are still lower impact for me, and require me to take less action.
Solving issue for a few, and making issues for millions, including perhaps the few. It is easier to sleep at nights though, for a few.
I like the idea of having my own rack in a data center somewhere (or sharing the rack, whatever) but even a tiny cost is still more than free. And even then, that data center will also have outages, with none of the benefits of a Cloudflare Pages, GitHub Pages, etc.
> developers have gone away from Dedicated servers (which are actually cheaper, go figure)
It depends on how you calculate your cost. If you only include the physical infrastructure having a dedicated server is cheaper. But by having some dedicated server you loose a lot of flexibility. Needs more resources? Just scale up your ec2, and with a dedicated server there is a lot more work involved.
Do you want a 'production-ready' database? With AWS you can just click a few buttons and have a RDS ready to use. To roll out your own PG installation you need someone with a lot of knowledge(how to configure replication? backups? updates? ...).
So if you include salaries in the calculation the result changes a lot. And even if you already have some experts in your payroll by putting them to work in deploying a PG instance you won't be able to use them to build other things that may generate more value to you business than the premium you pay to AWS.
Cloud-Hoster are that hardware-fallback. They started with offering better redundancy and scaling than your homemade breadbox. But it seems they lost something along the way and now we have this.
Maintainance cost is the main issue for on-prem infra, nowadays add things like DDOS protection and/or scraping protection, which can require dedicated team or for your company to rely on some library or open source project that is not guaranteed to be maintained forever (unless you give them support, which i believe in)... Yeah I can understand why companies shift off of on-prem nowadays
... dedis are cheaper if you are rightsized. If you are wrongsize they just plain crash and you may or may not be able to afford the upgrade.
I was at Softlayer before I was at AWS and what catalyzed the move was the time I needed to add another hard drive to a system and somehow they screwed it up. I couldn't put a trouble ticket it to get it fixed because my database record in their trouble ticket system was corrupted. The next day I moved my stuff to AWS and the day after that they had a top sales guy talk to me to try to get me to stay but it was too late.
They're using cloudfare for multicloud, but still have cloudfare as a single point of failure. Should make a cloudfare for cloudfare to solve this.
Like the infamous "smiling through the pain" meme:
"I added a load-balancer to improve system reliability" (happy)
"Load balancer crashed" (smiling-through-the-pain)
Reliability have very weird curve frankly.
Technically, multi-node cluster with failover (or full on active-active) will have far higher uptime than just a single node.
Practically, to get the multi-node cluster (for any non trivial workload) to work right, reliably, fail-over in every case etc. is far more work, far more code (that can have more bugs), and even if you do everything right and test what you can, unexpected stuff can still kill it. Like recently we had uncorrectable memory error which just happened to hit the ceph daemon just right that one of the OSDs misbehaved and bogged down entire cluster...
You jest, but this actually does exist. Multiple CDNs sell multi-CDN load balancing (divide traffic between 2+ CDNs per variously-complicated specifications, with failover) as a value add feature, and IIRC there is at least one company for which this is the marquee feature. It's also relatively doable in-house as these things go.
Failover to Akamai.
As someone who has worked for a CDN for over a decade, this is what most big customers do. Under normal circumstances, they send portions of traffic to different CDNs, usually based on cost (and or performance in various regions). When an issue happens, they will pull traffic from the problem CDN.
Of course, if a big incident happens for a big CDN, there might not be enough latent capacity in the other CDNs to take all the traffic. CDNs are a cutthroat business, with small margins, so there usually isn’t a TON of unused capacity laying around.
If there’s clearly a single point of failure shouldn’t it be called a single cloud pretending to be “multicloud”?
This might sound crazy as a software engineer, but I actually like the occasional "snow day" where everything goes down. It's healthy for us to all disconnect from the internet for a bit. The centralization unintentionally helps facilitate that. At least, that's my glass half full perspective.
I can understand that sentiment. Just don't lose sight of the impact it can have on every day people. My wife and I own a small theatre and we sell tickets through Eventbrite. It's not my full time job but it is hers. Eventbrite sent out an email this morning letting us know that they are impacted by the outage. Our event page appears to be working but I do wonder if it's impacting ticket sales for this weekend's shows.
So while us in tech might like a "snow day", there are millions of small businesses and people trying to go about their day to day lives who get cut off because of someone else's fuck-ups when this happens.
Absolutely solid point; there are a couple of apps I use daily for productivity, chores, even for alarm scheduling, that with the free versions, the ads wouldn’t load so I couldn’t use them but some of them were updated already. Made me realize I forgot that we’re kind of like cyborgs relying on technology that’s integrated so deeply into our lives that all it takes is an EMP blast like a monopolistic service going down to bring -us- down until we take a breath and learn how to walk again. Wild time.
> This might sound crazy as a software engineer, but I actually like the occasional "snow day" where everything goes down
As as software engineer, I get it. as a CTO, I spent this morning triaging with my devops ai(actual Indian) to find some workaround (we found one) while our CEO was doing damage control with customers (non technical field) who were angry that we were down and they were losing business by the minute.
sometimes I miss not having a direct stake in the success of the business.
I'm guessing you're employed and your salary is guaranteed regardless. Would you have the same outlook if you were the self-employed founder of an online business and every minute of outage was costing you money?
What are you paying in order to be down?
Even if you were making a million a minute, typically, it still didn't cost you a thing, nor have you lost anything.
You're not making as much, sure, but neither a cost, nor a loss.
If you're an event organizer whose big event is in two days, for example, then every minute your website's down translates to people not paying to attend your paid event. Bonus points because as event managers know, people often wait until 2 days before the event to subscribe for good. Bonus points if you knew this and therefore ran a costly email campaign just before the outage, a campaign that is now sitting at a near-0% click rate.
Don't ask me how I know.
For businesses whose profit margins are already slim, which is most traditional businesses trading online, making less money than they usually would will put them into the red, and even for those that are still in profit, making less money than you usually would means you have less money to pay the expenses that you usually do, expenses that are predicated on you making a certain amount of revenue.
your house isn't going into foreclosure because your shop went down for a day.
You're living in a bubble. I know enough people who live paycheck to paycheck and always have exactly $0 in their pocket before the end of the month. It's pretty normal in some parts of the world, maybe even most of them.
That's a weirdly flippant response to what's a serious issue, but I'll give it the courtesy of a reply anyway - maybe not, but a business not making enough profit might go under, or they might only have to fire someone to prevent that from happening.
any brick and mortar store can have an outage, sometimes multiple days when they repave the streets or have a utility outage. You are white-knighting for imaginary victims of imaginary tragedies. thats weird
I mean, you don't really know that, do you?
Maybe Tuesdays tend to be a big day for me, and instead of "down for a day", it's "lose almost a quarter of my income for the month".
Cloudflare is pretty pervasive, there are all kinds of people and businesses, in all kinds of situations, impacted by this.
You can make any leaps of logic into chaos theory. hell, maybe a fully-occupied orphanage will burn down because of some percolation of events that wouldn't have occurred had CloudFlare kept running. Maybe the next genocidal leader was conceived at the precise moment because CloudFlare was down and his parents used the time to make whoopie?
If the internet was just social media, SaaS productivity suites, and AI slop, sure...
But there are systems that depend on Cloudflare, directly or not, and when they go down it can have a serious impact on somebody's livelihood.
Now that network effects and data lock-in have taken root, downtime is not as big of a concern as it was in the 2000s
What does this even mean? Because people have locked in their data, they’re ok with downtime? I can’t imagine a world where this is true.
It costs a lot of money to move, you don't know if the alternative will be any better, and if it affects a lot of companies then it's nobody's fault. "Nobody ever got fired for buying Cloudflare/AWS" as they say.
It's just that customers are more understanding when they see their Netflix not working either otherwise they just think you're less professional. Try talking to customers after an outage and you will see.
it's not just that, it's the creation of a sorta status symbol, or at least of symbol of normality.
there was a point (maybe still) where not having a netflix subscription was seen as 'strange'.
if that's the case in your social circles -- and these kind of social things bother you -- you're not going to cancel the subscription due to bad service until it becomes a socially accepted norm.
except, yknow, where peoples lives and livelihoods depend on access to information/being able to do things on exact time. aws and cloudflare are disqualifying themselves from hospitals and military and whatnot.
For example, Cloudflare employees make money on promises to mitigate such attacks, but then can’t guarantee they will, and take all their customers down at once. It’s a shared pain model.
How did we get to a place where Cloudflare being down means we see an outage page, but on that page it tells us explicitly that the host we're trying to connect to is up, and it's just a Cloudflare problem.
If it can tell us that the host is up, surely it can just bypass itself to route traffic.
"... surely it can just ..."
Congratulations, you've successfully completed Management Training 101.
Totally cooked if you have Cloudflare fronting us-east-1, with no redundancies.
It could be worse. You could have a backup on Azure.
The mother of all bad infra decisions.
They have multi cloud infra, between us-east-1 and Azure
I recommend this Ben Thompson piece on why resiliency has declined: https://stratechery.com/2025/resiliency-and-scale/
People use CloudFlare because it's a "free" way for most sites to not get exploited (WAF) or DDoSed (CDN/proxy) regularly. A DDoS can cost quite a bit more than a day of downtime, even just a thundering herd of legitimate users can explode an egress bill.
It sucks there's not more competition in this space but CloudFlare isn't widely used for no reason.
AWS also solves real problems people have. Maintaining infrastructure is expensive as is hardware service and maintenance. Redundancy is even harder and more expensive. You can run a fairly inexpensive and performant system on AWS for years for the cost of a single co-located server.
Slowly and with full conscience of where we were heading to.
It's not only centralization in the sense your website will be down if they are down but it is also a centralized MITM proxy. If you transfer sensitive data like chats over cloudflare-"protected" endpoints, you also allow CF to transparently read and analyze it in plain-text. It must be very easy for state agencies to spy on the internet nowadays, they woukd just ask CF to redirect traffic to them.
Because it's better to have a really convenient and cheap service that works 99% of the time, than a resilient that is more expensive or more cumbersome to use.
It's like github vs whatever else you can do with git that is truly decentralized. The centralization has such massive benefits that I'm very happy to pay the price of "when it's down I can't work".
When there is an accident on the interstate we should blame the centralization of traffic and advocate for no more highways.
Very worrying indeed.
Most developers don't care to know how the underlying infrastructure works (or why) and so they take whatever the public consensus is re: infra as a statement of fact (for the better part of the last 15 years or so that was "just use the cloud"). A shocking amount of technical decisions are socially, not technically enforced.
This topic is raised every time there is an outage with cloudflare and the truth of the matter is, they offer an incredible service, there is not a bit enough competition to deal with it. By definition their services are so good BECAUSE their adoption rate is so high.
It's very frustrating of course, and it's the nature of the beast.
False dichotomy. Both can be true.
> False dichotomy.
Not sure I follow, I didn't say it wasn't worrying or an issue. Just the reasons for it getting to this point are valid.
Because DDoS is a fact of life (and even if you aren't targeted by DDoS, the bot traffic probing you to see if you can be made part of the botnet is enough to take down a cheap $5 VPS). So we have to ask - why? Personally, I don't accept the hand-wavy explanation that botnets are "just a bunch of hacked IoT devices". No, your smart lightbulb isn't taking down Reddit. I slightly believe the secondary explanation that it's a bunch of hacked home routers. We know that home routers are full of things like suspicious oopsie definitely-not-government backdoors.
Compliance. If you wanna sell your SAAS to big corpo, their compliance teams will feel you know what you're doing if they read AWS or Cloudflare on your architecture, even if you do not quite know what you're doing.
There is this tendency to phrase questions (or statements) as "when did 'we' ".
These decision are made individually not centrally. There is no process in place (and most likely there will never be) that will be able to control and dictate if people decide one way of doing things is the best way to do it. Even assuming they understand everything or know of the pitfalls.
Even if you can control individually what you do for the site you operate (or are involved in) you won't have any control on parts of your site (or business) that you rely on where others use AWS or Cloudflare.
IMO, centralization is inevitable because the fundamental forces drive things in that direction. Clouds are useful for a variety of reasons (technical, time to market, economic), so developers want to use them. But clouds are expensive to build and operate, so there are only a few organizations with the budget and competency to do it well. So, as the market matures you end up with 3 to 5 major cloud operators per region, with another handful of smaller specialists. And that’s just the way it works. Fighting against that is to completely swim upstream with every market force in opposition.
I would be less worried if Cloudflare and AWS weren't involved in many more things than simply running DNS.
AWS - someone touches DynamoDB and it kills the DNS.
Cloudflare - someone touches functionality completely unrelated to DNS hosting and proxying and, naturally, it kills the DNS.
There is this critical infrastructure that just becomes one small part of a wider product offering, worked on by many hands, and this critical infrastructure gets taken down by what is essentially a side-effect.
It's a strong argument to move to providers that just do one thing and do it well.
Re: Cloudflare it is because developers actively pushed "just use Cloudflare" again and again and again.
It has been dead to me since the SSL cache vulnerability thing and the arrogance with which senior people expected others to solve their problems.
But consider how many people still do stupid things like use the default CDN offered by some third party library, or use google fonts directly; people are lazy and don't care.
Because they are great services, are generally pretty easy to get started with, and usually work as expected, which has led to broad adoption.
We take the idea of the internet always being on for granted. Most people don’t understand the stack and assume that when sites go down it’s isolated, and although I agree with you, it’s just as much complacency and lack of oversight and enforcement delays in bureaucracy as it is centralization. But I guess that’s kind of the umbrella to those things… lol
Well the centralisation without rapid recovery and practices that provide substantial resiliency… that would be worrying.
But I dare say the folks at these organisations take these matters incredibly seriously and the centralisation problem is largely one of risk efficiency.
I think there is no excuse, however, to not have multi region on state, and pilot light architectures just in case.
Except businesses love it.
A lot (and I mean a lot) of people in IT like centralization specifically because it’s hard to blame people for doing something that everyone else is doing.
And HN users love it too. I've had people on this site say how great it is that their system routes 30% of traffic on the internet.
I'd be horrified. That's not the internet or computing industries I grew up with, or started working in.
But as long as the SPY keeps hitting > 10% returns each year, everyone's happy.
"No one gets fired for buying IBM!"
"No one gets fired for buying Microsoft" "No one gets fired for buying AWS" "No one gets fired for buying Cloudflare"
Perhaps the most graceful death of a tech company is that sentiment? Before some perception shift?
This was always the case. There was always a "us-east" in some capacity, under Equinix, etc. Except it used to be the only "zone," which is why the internet is still so brittle despite having multiple zones. People need to build out support for different zones. Old habits die hard, I guess.
> How did we get to a place where either Cloudflare or AWS having an outage means a large part of the web going down?
As always, in the name of "security". When are we going to learn that anything done, either by the government or by a corporation, in the name of security is always bad for the average person?
It's weird to think about so bear with me. I don't mean this sardonically or misanthropically. But, it's "just the internet." It's just the internet. It dones't REALLY matter in a large enough macro view. It's JUST the internet.
What is worrying is that distributed systems don’t seem to be that distributed in practice.
Designed to survive a first strike from the USSR. Taken down by Cloudflare.
oh mind you, the actual routing architecture of the internet was. Cloudflare being down mainly just affects layer 7...
Don't think there is anything wrong with a centralised service being down, you just make a conscious decision if you want that and can afford that?
People not being ready for cloudflare/[insert hyperscaler] to be possibly down is the only fault.
It's because single points of traffic concentration are the most surveillable architecture, so FVEY et al economically reward with one hand those companies who would build the architecture they want to surveil with the other hand.
Currently at the public library and I can't use the customer inventory terminals to search for books. They're just a web browser interface to the public facing website, and it's hosted behind CF. Bananas.
Don't forget the CloudStrike outage: One company had a bug that brought down almost everything. Who would have thought there are so many single points of failure across the entire Internet.
For most services it's safer to host from behind Cloudflare, and Cloudflare is considered more highly available than a single IaaS or PaaS, at least in my headcanon.
The same reason we have centralization across the economy. Economies of scale is how you make a big business succesful, and once you are on top its hard to dislodge you.
Agreed. More worrying is that it appears standard practice or separation between domain and nameserver administration has been lost to one-stop-shop marketing.
Short-term economic forces, probably. Centralization is often cheaper in the near term. The cost of designing in single-point failure modes gets paid later.
And all of these outages happening not long after most of them dismissed a large amount of experienced staff while moving jobs offshore to save in labor costs.
The technical term for it is a man in the middle. It’s better to call it what it is that way you aren’t fooled into thinking it’s not, because it is.
Because bots are a real thing.
And it’s hard to protect against DDoS without something like Cloudflare.
Look at the posts here.
Even the meager HN “hug of death” will take things down
A lot of products use AWS because "we could build redundancy and multi-region if we need it" and then never build it.
I think some of the issues in the last outage actually affected multiple regions. IIRC internally some critical infrastructure for AWS depends on us-east-1 or at least it failed in a way that didn't allow failover.
How many more of these until governments step in and take over "critical infrastructure"?
Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.
Consider joining the Internet Society. An entire group of people who care!
A key risk of monopolies is that they lead to monoculture SPoFs.
All decentralized systems tend to centralization over time.
because cloudfare protection blah blah, until cloudfare is down itself and then you are back to "who watches the watchmen"
That's easy, the watchmen watchmen watch the watchmen.
because efficiency trumps redundancy in the short term, which is all that matters in a super competitive environment.
Is avoiding single point of failure in anyone’s playbook? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We only care about it when it's time to complain about the work of individual people.
Companies can always do as they please and people will rationalize anything.
5 mins. of thought to figure out why these services exist?
Dialogue about mitigations/solutions? Alternative services? High availability strategies?
Nah! It's free to complain.
Me personally, I'd say those companies do a phenomenal job by being a de facto backbone of the modern web. Also Cloudflare, in particular, gives me a lot of things for free.
Hacking software or hardware is so old school.
The target these days is the user.
The make-believe worm.
…sneaks in Azure
It's not really. People are just very bad at putting the things around them into perspective.
Your power is provided by a power utility company. They usually serve an entire state, if not more than one (there are smaller ones too). That's "centralization" in that it's one company, and if they "go down", so do a lot of businesses. But actually it's not "centralized", in that 1) there are actually many different companies across the country/world, and 2) each company "decentralizes" most of its infrastructure to prevent massive outages.
And yes, power utilities have outages. But usually they are limited in scope and short-lived. They're so limited that most people don't notice when they happen, unless it's a giant weather system. Then if it's a (rare) large enough impact, people will say "we need to reform the power grid!". But later when they've calmed down, they realize that would be difficult to do without making things worse, and this event isn't common.
Large internet service providers like AWS, Cloudflare, etc, are basically internet utilities. Yes they are large, like power utilities. Yes they have outages, like power utilities. But the fact that a lot of the country uses them, isn't any worse than a lot of the country using a particular power company. And unlike the power companies, we're not really that dependent on internet service providers. You can't really change your power company; you can change an internet service provider.
Power didn't used to be as reliable as it is. Everything we have is incredibly new and modern. And as time has passed, we have learned how to deal with failures. Safety and reliability has increased throughout critical industries as we have learned to adapt to failures. But that doesn't mean there won't be failures, or that we can avoid them all.
We also have the freedom to architect our technology to work around outages. All the outages you have heard about recently could be worked around, if the people who built on them had tried:
- CDN goes down? Most people don't absolutely need a CDN. Point your DNS at your origins until the CDN comes back. (And obviously, your DNS provider shouldn't be the same as your CDN...)
- The control plane goes down on dynamic cloud APIs? Enable a "limp mode" that persists existing infrastructure to serve your core needs. You should be able to service most (if not all) of your business needs without constantly calling a control plane.
- An AZ or region goes down? Use your disaster recovery plan: deploy infrastructure-as-code into another region or AZ. Destroy it when the az/region comes back.
...and all of that just to avoid a few hours of downtime per year? It's likely cheaper to just take the downtime. But that doesn't stop people from piling on when things go wrong, questioning whether the existence of a utility is a good idea.
CAPITALISM
Are people really this confused?
[dead]
I do appreciate the visual "mea culpa":
Your browser: Working
Host: Working
Cloudflare: Error
Might be the first time I have ever seen that. Though in my case the "Host" is Cloudflare's own Pages service.
Yeah, I was shocked. Disbelief that the host was up, which is what usually happens when the cloudflare's page show up
They still blame the customers when you click on "Cloudflare":
> If the problem isn’t resolved in the next few minutes, it’s most likely an issue with the web server you were trying to reach.
In terms of probability looking at the history, it is correct. It's mostly me messing up with the web server.
I noticed that refreshing honesty too, not that the users did (our wifi is down fix it pls urgent)
That is really good to be honest!
I have Cloudflare running in production and it is affecting us right now. But at least I know what is going on and how I can mitigate (e.g. disable Cloudflare as a proxy if it keeps affecting our services at skeeled).
I searched my logs for errors for about an hour before figuring out the problem was not on my server :D
That page has special if/endif HTML comments to handle if your browser is IE 6, IE 7, IE 8...
And at the bottom:
What can I do?
Please try again in a few minutes.
Interestingly, also noticing that websites that use Cloudflare Challenge (aka "I'm not a Robot") are also throwing exceptions with a message as "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed" - even though it's just responding with an HTTP/500.
The state of error handling in general is woeful, they do anything to avoid admitting they're at fault so the negative screenshots don't end up on social media.
Blame the user or just leave them at an infinite spinning circle of death.
I check the network tab and find the backend is actually returning a reasonable error but the frontend just hides it.
Most recent one was a form saying my email was already in use, when the actual backend error returned was that the password was too long.
This takes down AI/search on chat.bing.com (GPT5, unauthenticated).
Funny, since I would have to prove to a an AI that I am human in the first place.
And others (ex. pinkbike) displaying "you have been blocked".
Always nice to see Pinkbike mentioned in the tech world :)
I think the site (front-end) thinks you have blocked the domain through DNS or an extension; and thus suggests you unblock it. It is unthinkable that Cloudflare captchas could go down /s.
Not only discriminating robots but actual people /s.
I’d rather mitigate a DDoS attack on my own servers than deal with Cloudflare. Having to prove you’re human is the second-worst thing on my list, right after accepting cookies. Those two things alone have made browsing the web a worse experience than it was in the late 90s or early 2000s.
There's worse than having to prove (over and over and over again) that you are human: having your IP just completely blocked by Cloudflare zealous bot-filtering (and I use a plain mass market ISP in a developed country and not some shady network)
Some of the mass-market ISPs are very shady - AT&T's Room 641A for example :)
How do you plan on mitigating a DDoS on your own servers?
Alright kids, breathe...a DDoS attack isn't the end of the world, it's just the internet throwing a tantrum. If you really don't want to use a fancy protection provider, you can still act like a grown-up: get your datacenter to filter trash at the edge, announce a more specific prefix with BGP so you can shift traffic, drop junk with strict ACLs, and turn on basic rate limiting so bots get bored. You can also tune your kernel so it doesn't faint at SYN storms, and if the firehose gets too big, pop out a more specific BGP prefix from a backup path or secondary router so you can pull production away from the burning IP.
Very quickly you'll find this doesn't work. Your DC will just null your IP. You'll switch to a new one and the attackers will too, the DC will null that one. You won't win at this game unless you're a very sizeable organization or are just willing to wait the attackers out, they will get bored eventually.
> pop out a more specific BGP prefix from a backup path or secondary router so you can pull production away from the burning IP.
This won't help against carpet bombing.
The only workable solution for enterprises is a combination of on-prem and cloud mitigation. Cloud to get all the big swaths of mitigation and to keep your pipe flowing, and on-prem to mitigate specific attack vectors like state exhaustion.
I never claimed to be an enterprise, nor did I suggest this was the best option for them. Cheers!
Worrying about a DDoS on your tiny setup is like a brand-new dev stressing over how they'll handle a billion requests per second...cute, but not exactly a real-world problem for 99.99% of you. It's one of those internet boogeyman myths people love to panic about.
That may have been true before the age of LLMs, but now crawler bots bring down any website in their path.
You turn off the screen. They can't hurt you if you don't see them
[dead]
You wait for it to stop.
That is not what mitigating means.
he'll politely ask them to stop
As much as this situation sucks, how do you plan to "mitigate a DDoS attack on my own servers". The reason I use Cloudflare is to use it as a proxy especially for DDOS attacks if they do occur. Right now, our services are down and we are getting tons of customer support tickets (like everyone else) but it is a lot easier to explain the the whole world is down vs its just us.
>it is a lot easier to explain the the whole world is down vs its just us.
Makes sense. The ability to pass the buck like this is 95% of the reason Cloudflare exists in the first place. Not being snarky, either.
> During our attempts to remediate, we have disabled WARP [their VPN service] access in London. Users in London trying to access the Internet via WARP will see a failure to connect. Posted 4 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 13:04 UTC
Is Cloudflare being attacked...?
This line also gave me that vibe
> We have made changes that have allowed Cloudflare Access [their 'zero-trust network access solution'] and WARP to recover. Error levels for Access and WARP users have returned to pre-incident rates. > We have re-enabled WARP access in London.
> We are continuing to work towards restoring other services. > Posted 12 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 13:13 UTC
Now I'm really suspicious that they were attacked...
I will bet it's routing misconfig.
It always is.
[flagged]
Someone running cloudflared accidentally advertising a critical route into their Warp namespace and somehow disrupting routes for internal Cloudflare services doesn't seem too far fetched.
We vibe coded a tool to mass disconnect Cloudflare Warp for incident responders: https://github.com/aberoham/unwarp
To go along with the shenanigans around dealing with MITM traffic inspection https://github.com/aberoham/fuwarp
I used to say, "Don't worry, we host it on Cloudflare. If it's down, then 30% internet is down. It's highly unlikely."
Well...
Yes but you also get to say "We're down? Yes of course we're down, 30% of the internet is down. Nothing we can do"
Like the old saying: Nobody Ever Got Fired for Buying IBM.
You weren't wrong, but There Will Be Days Like This.
Three this year, so far.
Quote from The Guardian's story:
>A spokesperson for Cloudflare said: “We saw a spike in unusual traffic to one of Cloudflare’s services beginning at 11.20am. That caused some traffic passing through Cloudflare’s network to experience errors. While most traffic for most services continued to flow as normal, there were elevated errors across multiple Cloudflare services.
>“We do not yet know the cause of the spike in unusual traffic. We are all hands on deck to make sure all traffic is served without errors. After that, we will turn our attention to investigating the cause of the unusual spike in traffic.”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/nov/18/cloudflar...
Sounds like it may have been a cyber attack...
"Unusual spike of traffic" can just be errant misconfiguration that causes traffic spikes just from TCP retries or the like. Jumping to "cyber attack" is eating up Hollywood drama.
In most cases, it's just cloud services eating shit from a bug.
PEBKAC error
That's not what I'm hearing from insiders
Classic. I see issues. Vendor’s status page is all green. Go to HN to find the confirmation. Applies to AWS, GH, everyone.
Edit: beautiful, this decentralised design of the internet.
I get the feeling that all "serious" businesses have manual processes for publicly facing status pages, for political reasons.
I don't like it.
I’ve written before on HN about when my employer hired several ex-FAANG people to manage all things cloud in our company.
Whenever there was an outage they would put up a fight against anyone wanting to update the status page to show the outage. They had so many excuses and reasons not to.
Eventually we figured out that they were planning to use the uptime figures for requesting raises and promos as they did at their FAANG employer, so anything that reduced that uptime number was to be avoided at all costs.
Are there companies that actually use their statuspage as a source of truth for uptime numbers?
I think it's way more common for companies to have a public status page, and then internal tooling that tracks the "real" uptime number. (E.g. Datadog monitors, New Relic monitoring, etc)
(Your point still stands though.)
I don’t know, but I will say that this team that was hired into our company was so hyperfocused on any numbers they planned to use for performance reviews that it probably didn’t matter which service you chose to measure the website performance. They’d find a way to game it. If we had used the internal devops observability tools I bet they would have started pulling back logging and reducing severity levels as reported in the codebase.
It’s obviously not a problem at every company because there are many companies who will recognize these shenanigans and come down hard on them. However you could tell these guys could recognize any opportunity to game the numbers if they thought those numbers would come up at performance review time.
Ironically our CEO didn’t even look at those numbers. He used the site and remembered the recent outages.
[Datadog employee here] https://updog.ai tracks the uptime of multiple services by real impact across Datadog customers.
It's because if you automate it, something could/would happen to the little script that defines "uptime," and if that goes down, suddenly you're in violation of your SLA and all of your customers start demanding refunds/credits/etc. when everything is running fine.
Or let's say your load balancer croaks, triggering a "down" status, but it's 3am, so a single server is handling traffic just fine? In short, defining "down" in an automated way is just exposing internal tooling unnecessarily and generates more false positives than negatives.
Lastly, if you are allowed 45 minutes of downtime per year and it takes you an hour to manually update the status page, you just bought yourself an extra hour to figure out how to fix the problem before you have to start issuing refunds/credits.
>you just bought yourself an extra hour to figure out how to fix the problem before you have to start issuing refunds/credits
No. Not if you're not defrauding your customers, you didn't.
There's a reason most SLAs say "you shall not establish your own monitoring of our systems."
At some level, the status updates have to be manual. Any automation you try to build on top is inevitably going to break in a crisis situation.
I found GitHub's old "how many visits to this status page have there been recently" graph on their status page to be an absurdly neat solution to this.
Requires zero insight into other infrastructure, absolutely minimal automation, but immediately gives you an idea whether it's down for just you or everybody. Sadly now deceased.
I like that https://discordstatus.com/ shows the API response times as well. There's times where Discord will seem to have issues, and those correlate very well with increased API response times usually.
Reddit Status used to show API response times way back in the day as well when I used to use the site, but they've really watered it down since then. Everything that goes there needs to be manually put in now AFAIK. Not to mention that one of the few sections is for "ads.reddit.com", classic.
https://steamstat.us still has this - while not official it's pretty nice.
Yeah, this is something people think is super easy to automate, and it is for the most basic implementation of something like a single test runner. The most basic implementation is prone to false positives, and as you say, breaking when the rest of your stuff breaks.
You can put your test runner on different infrastructure, and now you have a whole new class of false positives to deal with. And it costs you a bit more because you're probably paying someone for the different infra.
You can put several test runners on different infrastructure in different parts of the world. This increases your costs further. The only truly clear signals you get from this are when all are passing or all are failing. Any mixture of passes and fails has an opportunity for misinterpretation. Why is Sydney timing out while all the others are passing? Is that an issue with the test runner or its local infra, or is there an internet event happening (cable cut, BGP hijack, etc) beyond the local infra?
And thus nearly everyone has a human in the loop to interpret the test results and make a decision about whether to post, regardless of how far they've gone with automation.
They are manual AND political (depending on how big the company is). Because having a dashboard go to red usually has a bunch of project work behind it.
SLA breaches have consequences, no big conspiracy there
Not at all saying it's a conspiracy, I just think it's a lack of transparency.
I get why, but it would give me more confidence if they would tell me about everything.
I guess a dirty little secret might be that something is always acting up or being noisy and it would spam the status page completely.
They don't make more money by giving you more confidence in their systems.
FWIW, cloudflare's status page is showing red currently.
I usually get notifications from the sales/CS team way before the status page/incident list has any blip. This time was not an exception
It's as if they wanted an internet kill switch. /S
I went to check how many services are being impacted on down detector, but it was down.
I know this is bad, and some people's livelihood and lives rely on critical infrastructure, but when these things happen, I sometimes think GOOD!, let's all just take a breather for a minute yeh? Go outside.
Tried checking Cloudflare’s status on Downdetector, but Downdetector was also behind Cloudflare. Internet checkmate.
It’s not just websites :-/
Things like Apple private relay (which way too many people seem to have it enabled) are tunnelled via Cloudflare, maybe using warp?
One of the things that i didnt like about cloudflare MITM as a service is their requirement if you want SSL/CDN that you must use their DNS. Overconcentration of infra within one single pint of disruption with no easy outs when the stack tips over. Sadly i dont see any changes or rethink to be more decentralised even after this outage.
to be clear, that's just a limitation on their free service. If you pay, you can keep your own DNS
Their paid "professional" plan also has this limitation, only "enterprise" and up does not.
The $199/month/zone Business plan already offers this feature.
ah, didn't realise that, thanks
Yeah they keep re-inforcing bad vendor lockin practices. id guess the number of free users surpass the paying ones , and situations like these leave them all unable to recover.
Interesting(unnerving?) to see a number of domain registrars that offer their own DNS services utilize at least some kind of Cloudflare service for at least their own web fronts. Did a check on 6 registrar sites I currently interact with and half were down(Namecheap/Spaceship, Name, Dynadot) and up(Porkbun, Gandi, GoDaddy).
I just considered moving from Namecheap to Porkbun as Namecheap is down, but Porkbun use Cloudflare for their CAPTCHA meaning I'm unable to signup and I assume log in as well, so also no good.
Porkbun also uses Cloudflare for their NS servers.
This incident has been resolved. Posted 4 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 19:28 UTC
Better link for chroniclers, since the incident is now buried pretty far down on the status page: https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7
Thanks! We've switched to that from https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/?t=1 at the top.
And no lesson about single point of failure and centralization was learned that day.
[dead]
Where is the single point of failure? You can point to different name servers and swiftly remove Cloudflare from your setup.
Only true if your audience doesn't require Edge distribution, also if your Origin can handle the increased load and security issues, also if you don't use any advanced features (routing, edge compute...).
Aren't there other companies offering edge distribution?
Yes, and they come with different architectures, SLAs,... not so easy to pick one. Their features may not map 1:1, not so easy to implement a multi-edge solution.
Certainly. But I think that comes with the responsibilities, to be ready to switch a third party provider if necessary. Nothing is ever certain.
If your site is only hosted on one server and it catches fire, you can swiftly reinstall on a new server and change the IP your domain is pointing to, too... Still a single point of failure.
Yes, everything in the world is a single point of failure and has always been, if we look at things that way. But if it can be remedied quickly, then it's not a huge concern.
Bold of you to assume the service you use to manage your DNS was not also relying on Cloudflare just like you
Not if you’re using Workers/Pages!
But you didn't, so Cloudflare ended up being a single point of failure for half the internet.
If I had pointed my name servers somewhere else, then that of course would be the new single point of failure. You can't escape it, no matter how much hacker snark and down votes you have.
Your origin servers are protected now as no one can access them. Thanks for choosing CloudFlare's MITM "protection".
Do you remember when the Internet was redundant and resilient?
It seems 20% of the Internet is down every two weeks now.
70% of the internet is down
Can't even change my nameservers away from Cloudflare as Namecheap use Cloudflare!!
The nameservers themselves seem to be working fine if anyone is wondering.
I run my applications on OVH behind BunnyCDN and all is well.
Just checked INWX from here in Germany. I was able to log in and get to my DNS records. Just if you should be looking for an alternative after all this.
Yes I will be looking, thanks for the rec!
Oh seriously! Thats one I didn’t realize.
Namesilo as well.
I was shouting at network guy/colleague, how come challenges.cloudflare.com got blocked!! damn, I must apologise to him.
Probably better not to shout in the first place.
It was friendly fire, nothing serious. haha
> friendly fire
Yeah I don't think you are using this phrase correctly
Just trying to fit the jargons...
That reply doesn't make sense either. Sounds like you're just a "bad person" haha
I could be, but thats subjective, lol!
is that how someone gets cancelled?
..that's how they canceled a good guy based on telepathic diagnostics.
Yeah this guy got completely bullied lol it's all a little bit ironic
"Friendly banter" is the word you are looking for.
Friendly fire is when you shoot someone from your own team.
Even if he blocked it by accident, that is not a reason to shout.
Shouting will not prevent errors, and you are only creating a hostile work environment where not acting is better than the risk of making a mistake and triggering an aggressive response from your part.
It wasn't aggressive exchange, but will definitely consider your comment.
There is nothing else to do since CF is down... so.
There is nothing wrong with shouting during a perceived outage. Shouting is just raising your voice to give a notion of urgency. Yelling is different.
How often have you heard "shout at me", or something like that?
OP, continue you to shout when its needed, just don't yell at people you work with ;)
If he needs to apologize then his shouting was of the yelling kind
Doesn't matter whether it is shouting or yelling.
Don't worry beer gonna fix everything
The danger of Internet centralization in Cloudflare
That's why I run my server on 7100 chips made for me by Sam Zeloof in his garage on a software stack hand coded by me, on copper I ran personally to everyone's house.
You are joking but working on making decentralization more viable would indeed be more healthy than throwing hands up and accepting Cloudflare as the only option.
There was an article on HN a few days back about how companies like this are influencing the overall freedom of the web (I missed the source) and their own way of doing things. Other examples of influence I see similarly are of Vercel, like with enterprise. Even a few days back, we saw AWS.
Wanted to check if it was DNS again but https://isitdns.com/ is also down…
We definitely need a version without CF.
Then the page will just be down for load reasons.
This was geniuinely funny, thanks for that.
> Cloudflare Global Network experiencing issues
> Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available.
Things are back up (a second time) for me.
Cloudflare have updated their status page now to reflect the problems now. It doesn’t sound like they are confident the problem is fully fixed yet.
Edit: and down again a third time!
it's back again!
What would the Internet's architecture have to look like for DDOS'ing to be a thing of the past, and therefore Cloudflare to not be needed?
I know there are solutions like IPFS out there for doing distributed/decentralised static content distribution, but that seems like only part of the problem. There are obviously more types of operation that occur via the network -- e.g. transactions with single remote pieces of equipment etc, which by their nature cannot be decentralised.
Anyone know of research out there into changing the way that packet-routing/switching works so that 'DDOS' just isn't a thing? Of course I appreciate there are a lot of things to get right in that!
It's impossible to stop DDoS attacks because of the first "D".
If a botnet gets access through 500k IP addresses belonging to home users around the world, there's no way you could have prepared yourself ahead of time.
The only real solution is to drastically increase regulation around security updates for consumer hardware.
Maybe that's the case, but it seems like this conclusion is based on the current architecture of the internet. Maybe there are ways of changing it that mean these issues are not a thing!
It's not an architectural problem. It's a fundamental issue with trust and distributed systems. The same issues occur in physical spaces, like highways.
The core issue is that hackers can steal the "identity" of internet customers at scale, not that the internet allows unauthenticated traffic.
> The core issue is that hackers can steal the "identity" of internet customers at scale
That's on one end, right? There's also the other end: as a user connecting to the network, currently one is subscribing to receiving packets from literally everyone else on the internet.
> It's a fundamental issue with trust and distributed systems
We currently trust entities within the network to route packets as they are asked. The network can tolerate some level of bad actors within that, but there is still trust in the existing system. What if the things we trusted the network to do were to change slightly?
Do the IP addresses botnet members get logged? Could those IP addresses be automatically blocked by DNS until they fix their machine?
IP addresses aren't unique or stable. You can't use them to identify individual devices.
Lets say your samsung fridge gets hacked and is now a member of a botnet. How do you detect that before the botnet does something?
Why fridge need to have rights to initiate connection to something on internet ?
Why fridge need to even be reachable from the internet ?? You should have some AI agent for managing your "smart" home. At least it's how sci-fi movies/games show it, eg. Iron man or Starcraft II ;)
> Why fridge need to have rights to initiate connection to something on internet ?
So you can access it from a phone app even when outside your home network.
I was thinking of a reaction to a DDOS event, so those devices are flagged as being infected. You could prevent future attacks if those devices are ignored until they get fixed.
That is what ISPs do these days. Most botnet members don't end up spamming a lot of requests, usually just a few before they are blocked.
The issue with DDOS is specifically with the distributed nature of it. One single bot of a botnet is pretty harmless, it's the cohesive whole that's the problem.
To make botnets less efficient you need to find members before they do anything. Retroactively blocking them won't really help, you'll just end up cutting off internet for regular people, most of whom probably don't even know how to get their fridge off of their local network.
There's not really any easy fix for this. You could regulate it, and require a license to operate IoT devices with some registration requirement + fines if you don't keep them up to date. But even that will probably not solve the issue.
What would that look like? A network with built-in rate & connection limiting?
The closest thing I can think of is the Gemini protocol browser. It uses TOFU for authentication, which requires a human to initially validate every interaction.
Built it into the protocol that you must provide bandwidth in order to have your requests served. A bit like forcing people to seed torrents.
Works for static content and databases, but I don't think it works for applications where there is by necessity only one destination that can't be replicated (e.g. a door lock).
Something like a mega-transnational-parent ISP authority and give tech giants LaLiga kind of power.
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7
It's knocked out Turnstile too, which means I can't even log in to my Cloudflare dash to bypass my site's proxying via Cloudflare.
Oh you aren't missing much, the dashboard doesn't load anyway.
Even if you could, the DNS entries aren't loading. And then the page 404's.
I got several emails from some uptime monitors I setup due to failing checks on my website and funnily enough I cannot log into any of them.
BetterStack, InStatus and HetrixTools seemingly all use Cloudflare on their dashboards, which means I can't login but I keep getting "your website/API is down" emails.
Update: I also can't login to UptimeRobot and Pulsetic. Now, I am getting seriously concerned about the sheer degree of centralization we have for CDNs/login turnstiles on Cloudflare.
More vibe code gets into production. AWS, Azure and Cloudflare all have major issues.
Coincidence? I think not.
Even Cloudflare Status is now down, oh boy :) https://postimg.cc/LJVKYmks
Even your postimg.cc link is down for me.. (at least their CSS is)
https://ibb.co/QF6X0pX9
amazing
catbox.moe is up
https://files.catbox.moe/9r3zgr.png
Postimg's CDN is down
ERROR [12:00:21 UTC]: CF_EDGE_ROUTING_FAILURE. Reason: Origin-Shield connectivity loss detected within multi-region fabric. BGP path withdrawal initiated for critical LCP clusters (LCP-LON, LCP-FRA). Status code 521/522 flood reported globally. Geo-location failover services degraded. DNS resolution timeout on 1.1.1.1/1.0.0.1. Traffic flow re-routing pending verification of internal control plane integrity.
Did you ask an LLM to try to guess the error message?
In the beginning I thought my IP fell on the wrong side of Cloudflare and thought I was being blocked from ~80% of the internet. I was starting to panic
What have you been looking at citizen?
How come HN is never down with all these outages?
HN is just one active and one standby server at M5 Computer Security running BSD.
There are things out there which are running from a bare metal host, without relying on someone else's computer (aka the cloud). HN is one of them.
They stopped using Cloudflare some time ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18188832
Because HN doesn't use Cloudflare.
Also doesn't use AWS or Azure because it didn't go down with them either.
HN sometimes rarely is pointed to AWS when under attack.
I thought the same until I started looking:
Name Server: NS-225.AWSDNS-28.COM Name Server: NS-1411.AWSDNS-48.ORG Name Server: NS-1914.AWSDNS-47.CO.UK Name Server: NS-556.AWSDNS-05.NET
At least for DNS. Data center appears to be Lightedge.
Does HN self-host too?
I'd love to read an article describing the HN setup. Seems that they got a lot of things right - self registration, influx of people during outages and plenty others. Admins, if you see this, please write about your craft!
I am pretty sure @dang wrote about it on here before, but I can't seem to find it.
Seems like so, these submissions from them look related, but not quite it:
- [Sorry I broke the server](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9052128)
- [New attempt at mobile markup](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10489499)
- [Clickable domains and QoL](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645)
- [New features and a moderator](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12073675)
- [Thanks to thehodge and littlewarden, this site is up today](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28472350)
Maybe one day. Seeing all of these big providers stumbling, an article about HN staying on top of everything would surely resonate.
Here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28478379 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27452276
Thanks! Seems that's what we'll get as there are apparently serious money which can be made by knowing the guts of HN as per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27454354.
Yes, except when we've shot ourselves in both feet:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45750608
How? It's literally impossible to run a major website these days without Cloudflare.
/s
This is what you get for being lazy and choosing to making the internet more centralized.
Well, to be fair, while recognizing how influential it is, HN is not a major website lol
What counts as major? I estimate they get millions of hits here
HN is running on the server the rest of the cloud rents time from.
The outages are the Roomba.
FreeBSD on bare metal hooked up to a nice network.
Everyone laughs when AWS collapses, everyone is silent when Cloudflare collapses. Why? Because the place to laugh has collapsed.
One is every seven years... the other one is a ...monthly event?: https://hn.algolia.com/?https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=al...
Most of those aren’t outages, and both providers have big blips.
Globally meaningful outages of either are quite rare.
Its actually way more than monthly... It seems nobody does outages like Cloudflare...
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=8
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=7
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=6
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=5
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=4
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=3
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=2
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history?page=1
https://health.aws.amazon.com/health/status has regular disruptions like this, too (click the button labeled "list of events"; several a month even just in North America).
All the major cloud providers have regular incidents. Most go unnoticed, because they’re small or short.
The really big AWS ones go on https://aws.amazon.com/premiumsupport/technology/pes/
I at least respect them for reporting them. It feels like lots of cloud providers don’t, or begrudgingly.
This is at least the third time in the past year that Cloudflare has caused a significant outage of my product.
And you are still using them because ... ?
We handle ~2M requests per second and CF eliminates about ⅔ of those. We need CF or something like it. Multi edge is harder than it sounds at very large scale.
There are still alternatives like Bunny https://status.bunny.net/history (may not be for everyone, but I like to post the CF alternatives so it becomes ever so slightly less of a default)
Because those who were mocking him couldn't speak, X also crashed.
> Everyone laughs when AWS collapses, everyone is silent when Cloudflare collapses
Everyone laughs when Azure collapses too
Peter Levels wisdom about why to host not on aws not looking so wise right now
There are places other than AWS to host.
Down detector broke.... :-D
Yeah, how ironic. The site that is designed to tell you if something else is down, is currently down.
Life imitates art, Red Dwarf ~1989:
It also reminds me of this part of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/661/mostly-harmless-...
Cloudflare down because of a DDOS is extremely funny.
There's no evidence to suggest it was a result of a DDoS attack
That's true, but there is evidence that it would be extremely funny.
There's no public evidence. Lets wait for the blog post.
[dead]
Everyone is silent when Cloudflare collapses. Same goes for Azure, but that is because noone uses it.
When Azure goes down: Oh well
When Cloudflare goes down: Oh no
This would be true in the past but now most people are not on Twitter.
Sadly, I can report that this has brought down 2 of the major Mastodon nodes in the United Kingdom.
Happily, the small ones that I also use are still going without anyone apparently even noticing. At least, the subject has yet to reach their local timelines at the time that I write this.
2 of the other major U.K. nodes are still up, too.
"Most people" were never on Twitter to begin with. However its number of monthly active users have only grown since 2020.
> However its number of monthly active users have only grown since 2020.
Like everywhere it is mostly bots.
Look at HN frontpage, there used to be 1-2 Twitter post per day. Now it is barely per week. End even those are usually just from two accounts (Karpathy and Carmack).
Who is silent?
Except on HN
HAHA!
Our servers are still down, though
HAHAHAHA
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry
Maybe I'll do both
YEP that's the case nowwwww
[dead]
OMG! today of all days!
Black Tuesday
It's so crazy and scary that Cloudflare is the single point of failure for the internet.
But this decision is not determined by CF. It's how the devs decided.
Trying to figure out if this observation was intended to frame it so that it's less|same|more scary. The effect is more, but it sounds like the intention was less.
The common pasture.
This NYTimes article makes it sound like the problem is fixed, but I'm not seeing any improvement yet.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/18/business/cloudflare-down-...
Latest is:
Update - The team is continuing to focus on restoring service post-fix. We are mitigating several issues that remain post-deployment. Nov 18, 2025 - 15:40 UTC
Funny that I could not load Twitter to see if Cloudflare was down.
I rushed to Hacker News, but it was too early. Clicking on “new” did the job to find this post before making it to the Homepage:)
The web is still alive!
It was on Mastodon. That one is hardly going down.
Who wants to join me at the Winchester for a pint, and wait for this all to blow over?
Got some red on you...
Seems like ChatGPT and Claude are also affected. (CLI Codex still seems to work).
RIP to the engineers fixing this without any AI help.
They better not be using AI to fix this... especially if AI is what caused it! (looking at you, AWS)
For me right now, Claude.ai is down, but Claude Code (terminal, extension) seems to be up and happy. Suggests that API is probably up.
At some point we really need to think if this is the web we want, one/two major actors are down and everything goes with it
Not downplaying the immense work of infra / engineering at this scale but my neighborhood local grocery market shouldn’t be down
Decentralisation is at some point directly opposed to operational efficiency, when the sun is shining.
A shark is an extremely energy efficient creature, but it is relatively stupid.
At some point every website will be the equivalent of Surströmming
And centralization is ineffective long term
It's hard not to use Cloudflare at least for me: good products, "free" for small projects, and if Cloudflare is down no one will blame you since the internet is down.
> if Cloudflare is down no one will blame you since the internet is down.
That is true. it is also the problem. It means the biggest providers do not even need to bother to be reliable because everyone will use them anyway.
Well, no. If they are unreliable to the point of being an outlier when compared to the alternatives then people will switch. At this stage they’re not an outlier.
Maybe not, but they are approaching it. I wouldn't use it for anything funded with my own cash, I no longer recommend it as a first choice, but I'm not suggesting it gets replaced yet. It's somewhat in the 'legacy tech' category now in terms of how I perceive it and deal with it.
They are often promoted as bing more reliable.
"Accountability Sinks"
https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks
> if Cloudflare is down no one will blame you since the internet is down.
But this is not really the case. When Azure/AWS were down, same as this one with Cloudflare: significant amount of web was down but most of it was not. It just makes more obvious which provider you use.
Think about this rationally. If Cloudflare doesn't fix it within reasonable time, you can just point to different name servers and have your problem fixed in minutes.
So why be on Cloudflare to start with? Well, if you have a more reliable way then there's no reason. If you have a less reliable way, then you're on average better off with Cloudflare.
Well I can't change my NS since it's on Cloudflare too but besides that my personal opinion was not about this outage in particular but more the default approach of some websites that don't need all this tech (yes I really was out of groceries)
Is Cloudflare your domain registrar? In that case, yes I think you should think about being less dependent on them.
As for websites which don't need Cloudflare, in my experience almost every website will be DdoS attacked from time to time.
> Is Cloudflare your domain registrar? In that case, yes I think you should think about being less dependent on them.
And why I should overthink my architecture now? If I had to manage redundant systems and keep track of circular dependencies I just could keep managing my infra the old way, no?
I'm being sarcastic here, obviously, but really one of the selling point for cloud back in the day it was "you don't have to care about those details". You just need to care about other details, now.
I am personally really happy with Cloudflare for domains, pages and dns, I don't run critical stuff but some websites are and they should not be lazy about it
> in my experience almost every website will be DdoS attacked from time to time.
The place I work at has been online since 1996, not even a DoS yet, let alone a DDoS. Though we now use CF to filter all that bot traffic.
There’s certainly a business case for “which nines” after the talk of n nines. You ideally want to be available when your competitor, for instance, is not.
Why everyone needs to be behind Cloudflare. I don't think DDOSing sites out of whim is so rampant that everyone needs the virtual umbrella.
It's the web-scrapers. I run a tiny little mom and pop website, and the bots were consistently using up all of my servers' resources. Cloudfare more or less instantly resolved it.
Caching would have been the correct answer
You mean you outsourced to Cloudflare the decision on who is allowed to view your website. That could be well-intentioned, but it's a risky thing to do, and I would not to outsource that decision. Especially as I wouldn't know who failed to get to my website as there is no way to appeal the decision.
As a side note, what does your site do that it's possible to use up all server resources? Computers are stupid fast these days. I find it's really difficult to build something that doesn't scale to at least multiple hundreds of requests per second.
You'd be amazed how easy it is to take down a janky decades old LAMP stack.
I’ve been DDoS’d countless times running a small scale, uncontroversial SaaS. Without them I would’ve had countless downtime periods with really no other way to mitigate.
There's plenty of DDoS if you're dealing with people petty enough.
The VPS I use will nuke your instance if you run a game server. Not due to resource usage, but because it attracts DDoS like nothing else. Ban a teen for being an asshole and expect your service to be down for a week. And there isn't really Cloudflare for independent game servers. There's Steam Networking but it requires the developer to support it and of course Steam.
Valve's GDC talk about DDoS mitigation for games: https://youtu.be/2CQ1sxPppV4
> And there isn't really Cloudflare for independent game servers
And yet game servers still work fine. Which answers this subthread's question ("how likely is it to get DDoSed if you don't have Cloudflare"), answer: not very likely, it happens once in a while at most.
It actually is.
I run a small video game forum with posts going back to 2008. We got absolutely smashed by bots scraping for training data for LLMs.
So I put it behind Cloudflare and now it's down. Ho hum.
Have you tried Anubis or similar tools? I've had similar issues with bot scraping of a forum taking all server resources, and using PoW challenge solved the problem.
https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis
I've always wondered: has there been any effort to implement a PoW challenge like that at a lower level? I.e., TCP but the handshake requires solving a challenge, otherwise the connection is just closed? It seems like something that could benefit from being invisible on the application layer.
Edit: To answer my own question, yes: http://www.arijuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/JB99.pdf
Edit 2: Maybe TLS would be another reasonable place for it?
I did! It's very cool tech. However for our config it was easier to slap CF in front of it.
I will say one very appealing use of Anubis I'd love to try is using it as a Traefik middleware to protect services running in docker containers.
Can you please elaborate on “smashed”? I’m very interested
I took a screenshot of the graph in cloudflare when I switched on the bot challenges.
https://i.ibb.co/qHCJyY7/image.png
I wrote the below to explain to our users what was happening, so apologies if the language is too simple for a HN reader.
- 0630, we switched our DNS to proxy through CF, starting the collection of data, and implemented basic bot protections
- Unfortunately whatever anti-bot magic they have isn't quite having the effect, even after two hours.
- 0830, I sign in and take a look at the analytics. It seems like <SITE NAME> is very popular in Vietnam, Brazil, and Indonesia.
- 0845, I make it so users from those countries have to pass a CF "challenge". This is similar to a CAPTCHA, but CF try to make it so there's no "choosing all the cars in an image" if they can help it.
- So far 0% of our Asian audience have passed a challenge.
Same problem here. If I didn't use Cloudflare, nearly all of my traffic would be (apparently misconfigured) scraper bots.
It'd funny if these bots were run by Cloudflare.
Ha, yeah. They seemed to mostly be in SE Asia.
I was arrested by Interpol in 2018 because of warrants issued by the NCA, DOJ, FBI, J-CAT, and several other agencies, all due to my involvement in running a DDoS-for-hire website. Honestly, anyone can bypass Cloudflare, and anyone that want to take your website down - will take it down. It's just that luckily for all of us most of the DDoS-4-hire websites are down nowadays but there are still many botnets out there that will get past basically any protection and you can get access to them for basically $5.
One minute, what? Can you elaborate on that. I have loads of questions. What exactly were you doing? What consequences did you face? How come you are talking about it?
because I'm from Serbia so I was released immediately instead of actually being jailed like my friend from Croatia ~
> anyone can bypass Cloudflare
How?
Plenty of ways to leak the original server IP address if it isn't really well hardened against that (and most aren't).
Like? Aside from scanning DNS records (assuming the protected IP is in there somewhere) or scanning the entire IPv4 (assuming the server responds to non CloudFlare requests), I can't think of any. And both methods are simple to protect against.
Some of it is tradecraft, but have two: SSRF bugs/features and chatty email headers.
Right. Still a far cry from "anyone can bypass CloudFlare" though.
Good chance the reason DDOSing isn't so big anymore is because everyone is on Cloudflare.
No but because all of us were arrested in 2018 for running DDoS-4-hire services. Bypassing cloudflare is very easy and I still can fry any of your websites (if i wanted to, just like any other skid)
There are plenty of alternatives to protect against DDoSing, people like convenience though. “Nobody gets fired for choosing Microsoft/Cloudflare”. We have a culture problem
It's not super common, but common enough that I don't want to deal with it.
The other part is just how convenient it is with CF. Easy to configure, plenty of power and cheap compared to the other big ones. If they made their dashboard and permission-system better (no easy way to tell what a token can do last I checked), I'd be even more of a fan.
If Germany's Telekom was forced to peer on DE-CIX, I'd always use CF. Since they aren't and CF doesn't pay for peering, it's a hard choice for Germany but an easy one everywhere else.
DDOSing is absolutely so rampant that you need to be behind something.
Nope, I'm at hetzner and haven't seen a DDoS in years.
So am I and neither did I... up until a week ago. Now my server's being hammered with bot traffic 24/7.
Because of 2018 operation "Power OFF" but it's still pretty easy to take anything down.
Hetzner has the WEAKEST DDoS protection out of ANYTHING out there - Arbor sucks.
Send me your website url and I'll keep it down for DAYS and whenever you cry to hetzner I'll just fry it again, it's that easy and that's why they're the cheapest - because everyone ran away from them back then.
So, are you an Internet bully? how would you define yourself?
Nah, I'm just talking about the possibilities
Analogously, arson attacks against businesses in Palermo are absolutely so rampant that they need to be protected by someone.
I run a few websites with moderate traffic (~900K daily page views total) on the same VPS and never had an issue with DDOS. Is this specific to some industries?
Literally specific to "did I make this skid angry or not", it takes $5 to DDoS a website (bypassing cloudflare included)
Depends on what those websites are and how lucky you are.
Hm, interesting times we live in.
> Gooo gooo gaa gaaa look at this basic cassus beli I swallowed!!!
And yet my website is still up today, and has not been down for years.
Cloudflare DDOS protection is super essential (especially for smaller businesses)
DDoS prevention may be essential, but not CloudFlare.
Who is motivated to launch DDoS against smaller businesses? What do they have to gain?
My small SaaS app has been DDoSed a handful of times, always accompanied by an email asking for a ransom in the form of bitcoin.
The first time we switched to Cloudflare which saved us. Even with Cloudflare, the DDoS attempts are still damaging (the site goes down, we use Cloudflare to block the endpoints they're targeting, they change endpoints, etc.) but manageable. Without Cloudflare or something like it, I think it's possible that we'd be out of business.
Anyone that has $5.
I've also got €5, but I see greater return on investment in spending them on a lottery ticket than in DDoS'ing arbitrary small businesses.
I know, but people love the feel of "power", especially when it's cheap or even free
Honestly it kinda is. Ai bots scrape everything now, social media means you can go viral suddenly, or you make a post that angers someone and they launch an attack just because. I default to cloudflare, because like an umbrella I might just be carrying it around most of the time, but in the case of a sudden downpoor it's better than getting wet.
Setting up a replica and then pointing your api requests at it when cloudflare request fails is trivial. This way if you have a SPA and as long as your site/app is open the users won't notice.
The issue is DNS since DNS propagation takes time. Does anyone have any ideas here?
> Setting up a replica and then pointing your api requests at it when cloudflare request fails is trivial.
Only if you're doing very basic proxy stuff. If you stack multiple features and maybe even start using workers, there may be no 1:1 alternatives to switch to. And definitely not trivially.
We do use workers, but with hono so it's easy to deploy it on render with node.
There are other cloudflare products for which there are not many alternative(durable objects, workflows etc), but at least for us we don't use them in the critical path. We deliberately avoided them in the critical path because we knew we'll have to setup multi cloud for 99.999% uptime(we run a POS system so any downtime results in angry calls and long lines for our merchants)
Two domains for your api perhaps, a full blown SPA could try one and then the other.
Yes, that's my approach as well. Issue is when users opens the app during downtime or hit reload. Primary domain would return a 5xx.
Owning your IP space and using Anycast.
Anycast is hard, which is why only clouds bother with it in the first place :(
> At some point we really need to think if this is the web we want,
You think we have a say in this?
The HN crowd in particular absolutely has a say in this, given the amount of engineering leads, managers, and even just regular programmers/admins/etc that frequent here - all of whom contribute to making these decisions.
You have the power to not host your own infrastructure on aws and behind cloudflare, or in the case of an employer you have the power to fight against the voices arguing for the unsustainable status quo.
If you need DDoS mitigation then you essentially need to rely on a third party. Every third party will have inevitable downtime. For many it’s just whether you’d prefer to be down while everyone else is down or not.
A lot of business would accept the rare downtime from Cloudflare in exchange for the DDoS protection.
If the internet was always a nice place we wouldn't need Cloudflare and similar :(
You also have the power to not pay money to big tech
It's not the web we want, but it's the web corporations want. And everybody else doesn't give a damn.
Believe me it’s what people want. The alternative is far worse.
We? I am not using it. I never used it and I will not use it. People should learn how to work with firewall, setup a simple ModSecurity WAF and stop using this bullshit. Almost everything goes through cloudflare and cloudflare also does TLS fronting for websites so basically cloudflare is MITM spying proxy but no one seem to care. :/
BLOCKCHAINS! I mean, some sort of P2P hosting and/or node discovery would be nice.
I didn’t see anyone comment this directly, but something these recent outages made me wonder, having spent a good chunk of my career in 24/7 tech support, is that I can’t even fathom the amount of people who have been:
- restarting their routers and computers instead of taking their morning shower, getting their morning coffee, taking their medication on time because they’re freaking out, etc. - calling ISPs in a furious mood not knowing it’s a service in the stack and not the provider’s fault (maybe) - being late for work in general - getting into arguments with friends and family and coworkers about politics and economics - being interrupted making their jerk chicken
Cloudflare seems to have degrated performance. Half the requests for my site throw cloudflare 500x errors, the other half work fine.
However the https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/ does not really mention anything relevant. What's the point of having a status page if it lies ?
Update Ah I just checked the status and now I get a big red warning (however the problem existed for like 15 minutes before 11:48 UTC):
> Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available. Nov 18, 2025 - 11:48 UTC
> What's the point of having a status page if it lies ?
Status pages are basically marketing crap right now. The same thing happened with Azure where it took at least 45 minutes to show any change. They can't be trusted.
>However the https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/ does not really mention anything relevant. What's the point of having a status page if it lies ?
What is the lie ?
> Cloudflare Global Network experiencing issues
cloudflare has a specific service names "Network" and it's having issues..
Please read my comment again including the update:
For 15 minute cloudflare wasn't working and the status page did not mentioned anything. Yes, right now the status page mentions the serious network problem but for some time our pages were not working and we didn't know what was happening.
So for ~ 15 minutes the status page lied. The whole point of a status page is to not lie, i.e to be updated automatically when there are problem and not by a person that needs to get clearance on what and how to write.
This sentence is slowly getting boring after all those recent outages: My web app hosted on Hetzner and BunnyCDN still works.
That shows, the distributed nature of the internet is still there. It is a problem though, if everything is funneled through one provider.
I've been migrating all my personal stuff to Cloudflare. They have good products and good pricing.
At the same time I'm worried about how the internet is becoming even more centralized, which goes against how it was originally designed.
Same here. A lot of my sites are now down.
[flagged]
No, just competing priorities.
This is crazy. The internet has so much direct and transitive dependency on Cloudflare today. Pretty much the #1 dev slacking excuse today is no longer code compiling but cloudflare is down.
Cloud in general was a mistake. We took a system explicitly designed for decentralization and resilience and centralized it and created a few neat points of failure to take the whole damn thing down.
Cloudflare provides some nice services that have nothing to do with cloud or not. You can self-host private tunnels, application firewalls, traffic filtering, etc, or you can focus on building your application and managing your servers.
I am a self-host enthousiast. So I use Hetzner, Kamal and other tools for self-managing our servers, but we still have Cloudflare in front of them because we didn't want to handle the parts I mentioned (yet, we might sometime).
Calling it a mistake is a very narrow look at it. Just because it goes down every now and then, it isn't a mistake. Going for cloud or not has its trade-offs and I agree that paying 200 dollars a month for a 1GB Heroku Redis instance is complete madness when you can get a 4GB VPS on Hetzner for 3,8 a month. Then again, some people are willing to make that trade-off for not having to manage the servers.
Cloud servers have taught me so much about working with servers because they are so easy and cheap to spin up, experiment with and then get rid of again. If I had had to buy racks and host them each time I wanted to try something, I would've never done it.
Sure, it's a great fair-weather technology, makes some things cheap and easy.
But in the face of adversity, it's a huge liability. Imagine Chinese Hackers taking down AWS, Cloudflare, Azure and GCP simultaneously in some future conflict. Imagine what that would do to the West.
I don't believe in Fukuyamas End of History. History is still happening, and the choices we make will determine how it plays out.
Thanks, I was too lazy to write this, and noticed this comment multiple times now. It's good to be sceptical at times, but in this case it simply misses the mark.
Threat actors (DDoS) and AI scraping already threw a wrench in decentralization. It's become quite difficult to host anything even marginally popular without robust infrastructure that can eat a lot of traffic
It took me a while to understand it, but the beauty of it is that when it fails, lot of things fail.
Almost no one gets mad if your site and half the internet were down.
Sure, but that is also a giant weakness. Say in a future conflict with Russia or China, or hell, even North Korea.
They'd only have to take down a few services to completely cripple the West - the exact case ARPANET was designed to prevent.
Yep. You are right. Aren't those services regulated to avoid that from happening?
I didn't think about the Cloudflare API, but we'll make sure to do it next time. Hopefully, it won't happen again. I want Cloudflare to delegate DNS control to an external provider so it's easy to disable/enable the CF proxy in case something like this happens.
ChatGPT is Down. What will LinkedIn posters ever do?
They will embark on a journey of synergy, and be agile.
Incoming Posts on LinkedIn:
what ChatGPT and Claude being down taught me about b2b SaaS
I can now imagine a scenario where everyone has become so dependent on the AI tool that it going down could turn into an unanticipated black start event for the entire internet.
https://tenor.com/view/obiwan-kenobi-disturbance-in-the-forc...
I sense a great disturbance in the force... As if millions of cringefluencers suddenly cried out in terror cause they had to come up with an original thought.
And Anthropic Claude
For me right now, Claude.ai is down, but Claude Code (terminal, extension) seems to be up and happy. Suggests that API is probably up.
It's insane to me that big internet uptime monitoring tools like Pingdom and Downdetector both seem to rely on Cloudflare, as both of those are currently unavailable as well.
down detector works in serbia
[dead]
We've traded DDoS for centralized DoS.
centralized incompetency causes distributed denial of service
It's been 15 minutes of it going up and down, still nothing on their status page...
They've just added it less than a minute ago. I expected a little more responsiveness from Cloudflare...
Everything else aside, 20 minutes to get their status page updated seems pretty damn fast.
Me too. What good is a status page that's not automated?
There are no truly automated status pages. It's an impossible problem. I mean that seriously. At scale you're collecting 100s of thousands (or mms) of metrics/spans/logs across 10s or 100s of loosely coupled systems. Building a system that can accurately analyze these and assess what the status page should say, in real time, without human intervention, is just not possible with current technology.
Even just the basic question of "are we down or is our monitoring system just having issues" requires a human. And it's never "are we down", because these are distributed systems we're talking about.
If service X goes down entirely, does that warrant a status page update? Yes? Turns out system X is just running ML jobs in the background and has no customer impact.
If service Z's p95 response latency jumps from 10ms to 1500ms for 5 minutes, 500s spike at the same time, but overall 200s rate is around 98%, are we down? is that a status page update? Is that 1 bad actor trying to cause issues? Is that indicative of 2,000 customers experiencing an outage and the other 98,000 operating normally? Is that a bad rack switch that's causing a few random 500s across the whole customer base and the service will reject that node and auto-recover in a moment?
I can answer that - once the lawyers take interest in your SLAs, you need to check with them if this is really an incident. Otherwise, you might lose some contract money and nobody wants that.
Especially when it's the de facto status page for 20% of the internet!
Well, we've seen it now, they'll have to update it eventually!
The irony is that if you follow the relevant link [1]in the error page , you get this
> If the problem isn’t resolved in the next few minutes, it’s most likely an issue with the web server you were trying to reach.
[1] https://www.cloudflare.com/5xx-error-landing/?utm_source=err...
Related to Azure DDoS?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45955900
whats your chain of thought here ? a company that has nothing to do with azure is down because azure got ddosed 2 weeks ago ?
Maybe that any actor sophisticated enough to take down Azure might also target Cloudflare?
Especially when the next happens to be a major DDOS mitigator.
Maybe related to their scheduled maintenance? https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/
I thought that as we're seeing issues with LON, but their Manchester POP is also down and that didn't have any maintenance this morning.
Ironically I can't even read the link in the article because cloudflare is down.
Linked Microsoft blog article mentions that DDoS was in October.
The main bike rental Velib in Paris has the app not working, but the bikes can be taken with NFC. However, my station, which is always full at this time, is now empty, with only 2 bad bikes. It maybe related. Yet, push notifications are working.
I'm going to take the metro now and thinking how long do we have until the entire transit network goes down because of a similar incident.
Feels like it's been a rough year for huge infra outages man :(.
Is it DNS? I went to check the isitdns.com but got a cloudflare error
Later today or tomorrow there's going to be a post on HN pointing to Cloudflare's RCA and multitudes here are going to praise CF for their transparency. Let's not forget that CF sucks and took half the internet down for four hours. Transparency or no, this should not be happening.
Alot of things shouldnt be happening. Fact is that no one forced half the internet to make CF their point of failure. The internet should ask themselves if that was the right call
Speaking of 5 9s, how would you achieve 5 9s for a basic CRUD app that doesn't need to scale, but still be globally accessible? No auth, micro services, email or 3rd party services. Just a classic backend connected to a db (any db tech, hosted wherever), that serves up some html.
It depends on the infrastructure you're running on. There was a post yesterday going fairly into depth how you do such calculations https://authress.io/knowledge-base/articles/2025/11/01/how-w...
You probably cannot achieve this with a single node, so you'll at least need to replicate it a few times to combat the normal 2-3 9s you get from a single node. But then you've got load balancers and dns, which can also serve as single point of failure, as seen with cloudflare.
Depending on the database type and choice, it varies. If you've got a single node of postgres, you can likely never achieve more than 2-3 9s (aws guarantees 3 9s for a multi-az RDS). But if you do multi-master cockroach etc, you can maybe achieve 5 9s just on the database layer, or using spanner. But you'll basically need to have 5 9s which means quite a bit of redundancy in all the layers going to and from your app and data. The database and DNS being the most difficult.
Reliable DNS provider with 5 9s of uptime guarantees -> multi-master load balancer each with 3 9s, -> each load balancer serving 3 or more apps each with 3 9s of availability, going to a database(s) with 5 9s.
This page from google shows their uptime guarantees for big tables, 3 9s for a single region with a cluster. 4 9s for multi cluster and 5 9s for multi region
https://docs.cloud.google.com/architecture/infra-reliability...
In general it doesn't matter really what you're running, it is all about redundancy. Whether that is instances, cloud vendor, region, zone etc.
Part of the up-time solution is keeping as much of your app and infrastructure within your control, rather than being at the behest of mega-providers as we've witnessed in the past month: Cloudflare, and AWS.
Probably:
- a couple of tower servers, running Linux or FreeBSD, backed up by a UPS and an auto-run generator with 24 hours worth of diesel (depending on where you are, and the local areas propensity for natural disasters - maybe 72 hours),
- Caddy for a reverse proxy, Apache for the web server, PostgreSQL for the database;
- behind a router with sensible security settings, that also can load-balance between the two servers (for availability rather than scaling);
- on static WAN IPs,
- with dual redundant (different ISPs/network provider) WAN connections,
- a regular and strictly followed patch and hardware maintenance cycle,
- located in an area resistant to wildfire, civil unrest, and riverine or coastal flooding.
I'd say that'd get you close to five 9s (no more than ~5 minutes downtime per year), though I'd pretty much guarantee five 9s (maybe even six 9s - no more than 32 seconds downtime per year) if the two machines were physically separated from each other by a few hundred kilometres, each with their own supporting infrastructure above, sans the load balancing (see below), through two separate network routes.
Load balancing would become human-driven in this 'physically separate' example (cheaper, less complex): if your-site-1.com fails, simply re-point your browser to your-site-2.com which routes to the other redundant server on a different network.
The hard part now will be picking network providers that don't use the same pipes/cables, i.e. they both use Cloudflare, or AWS...
Keep the WAN IPs written down in case DNS fails.
PostgreSQL can do master-master replication, but it's a pain to set up I understand.
what if you could create a super virtual server of sorts. imagine a new cloud provider like vercel but called something else. what this provider does is when you create a server on their service, they create 3 services, one on aws, one on gcp and one on azure. behind the scenes they are 3 separate servers but to the end user they are a single server. the end user gets to control how many cloud providers are involved. when aws goes down, no worries, it switches to the part with gcp on
Stock VPS somewhere like OVH or Hetzner, with a replica in a different provider?
Doesn't Hetzner carry the risk if getting kicked off on a whim? Only time I hear about them is when someone gets kicked out.
Seriously, bookmarking this site and checking it first next time instead of disabling all my ad blockers.
I've been considering Cloudflare for caching, DDoS protection and WAF, but I don't like furthering the centralization of the Web. And my host (Vultr) has had fantastic uptime over the 10 years I've been on them.
How are others doing this? How is Hacker News hosted/protected?
> A fix has been implemented and we believe the incident is now resolved. We are continuing to monitor for errors to ensure all services are back to normal. Posted 3 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 14:42 UTC
Seems like they think they've fixed it fully this time!
Close! They just updated their states and it's back to working on a fix
Update - Some customers may be still experiencing issues logging into or using the Cloudflare dashboard. We are working on a fix to resolve this, and continuing to monitor for any further issues. Nov 18, 2025 - 14:57 UTC
Phew, my latest 3h30 workshop about Obsidian was saved. I recorded it this morning, not knowing about the Cloudflare issue (probably started while I was busy). I'm using Circle.so and they're down (my community site is now inaccessible). Luckily, they probably use AWS S3 or similar to host their files, so that part is still up and running.
Meanwhile all my sites are down. I'll just wait this one out, it's not the end of the world for me.
My GitHub actions are also down for one of my project because some third-party deps go through Cloudflare (Vulkan SDK). Just yesterday I was thinking to myself: "I don't like this dependency on that URL...". Now I like it even less
I got an email saying that my OpenAI auto-renewal failed, my credits have run out. I go to OpenAI to reauthorize the card, and I can't login because OpenAI uses Cloudflare for "verifying you are a human" that goes in infinite loop. Great.
oh no, the vibes won't code themselves /s
Or even worse, people with apps in production with credits running out
I miss the old internet where 1 company having an outage didn't take down most of it.
I'm thinking about all those quips from a few decades back, along the lines of: "The Internet is resilient, it's distributed and it routes around damage" etc.
In many ways it's still true, but it doesn't feel like a given anymore.
I think you should give me a credit for all the income I lost due to this outage. Who authorized a change to the core infrastructure during the period of the year when your customers make the most income? Seriously, this is a management failure at the highest levels of decision-making. We don't make any changes to our server infrastructure/stack during the busiest time of the year, and neither should you. If there were an alternative to Cloudflare, I'd leave your service and move my systems elsewhere.
Recently my multiple VPN server nodes just randomly cannot connect to cloudflare CDN IPs, from different provider VPS, while the Host Linux network does not have the issue; vpp share the same address with Linux and use tc stateless NAT to do the trick.
I finally work around this by change the tcp options sent by vpp tcp stack.
But the whole thing made me worry there must be something deployed which cause this issue.
But I do not think that related with this network issue, it just reminds me the above, I feel there are frequently new articles about cloudflare networking, maybe new method or new deployment sort of related high probability of issues
For anyone reading this who desperately needs their website up, you can try this: If you manage to get to your Cloudflare DNS settings and disable the "Proxy status (Proxied)" feature (the orange cloud), it should start working again.
Be aware that this change has a few immediate implications:
- SSL/TLS: You will likely lose your Cloudflare-provided SSL certificate. Your site will only work if your origin server has its own valid certificate.
- Security & Performance: You will lose the performance benefits (caching, minification, global edge network) and security protections (DDoS mitigation, WAF) that Cloudflare provides.
This will also reveal your backend internal IP addresses. Anyone can find permanent logs of public IP addresses used by even obscure domain names, so potential adversaries don't necessarily have to be paying attention at the exact right time to find it.
Unfortunately, this will also expose your IP address, which may leave you vulnerable even when the WAF and DDoS protections come back up (unless you take the time to only listen for Cloudflare IP address ranges, which could still take a beefy server if you're having to filter large amounts of traffic).
also the API was working fine while the dash was down.
if you don't have the keys make sure to grab them for the next one.
> a routine configuration change we made
Every.Single.Time
[1] https://x.com/dok2001/status/1990791419653484646
Cloudflare's dashboard is currently down as well.
My domain is registered with cloudflare so I'm 100% helpless to get things back online.
I can't edit DNS records to bypass cloudflare and I can't change nameservers either.
We are all impacted...
Looking forward to seeing their RCA. I'm guessing it's going to be glossy in terms of actual customer impact. "We didn't go offline, we just had 100% errors. For 60 minutes."
Didn't realize Twitter uses cloudflare. It seems to be down as well
I believe it used to be AWS and they switched.
everything is down except HN :D
The just-one-big-server-in-someones-basement stack remains undefeated.
Except it isn't that big?
I don’t know; HN historically has had way worse uptime than Cloudflare.
[citation needed]
It's a little surprising how little it affect me. I believe it's around 20% of websites that use CloudFlare in some form or another.
Pagerduty is up
Bunnycdn lives
Digg.com is working perfectly hahahaha
Those football playoffs are really getting out of hand…
Ref: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43157000
Good one!
My theory is that people's skills are getting worse. Attention spans are diminishing, memory is shrinking. People age and retire, new less skilled generations are replacing them. There are studies about declining IQ in the last decades. Probably mobile phones and social media are to blame.
We see the signs with Amazon and Cloudflare going down, Windows Update breaking stuff. But the worse is yet to come, and I am thinking about airport traffic control, nuclear power plants, surgeons...
> There are studies about declining IQ in the last decades. Probably mobile phones and social media are to blame.
It is much more nuanced than that.
The long-term rise (Flynn Effect) of IQs in the 20th century is widely believed to be driven by environmental factors more than genetics.
Plateau / decline is context-dependent: The reversal or slowdown isn’t universal, like you suggest. It seems more pronounced in certain countries or cohorts.
Cognitive abilities are diversifying: As people specialize more (education, careers, lifestyles), the structure of intelligence (how different cognitive skills relate) might be changing.
I happened to be working with Claude when this occurred. Having no idea what exactly what the cause was, I jumped over to GPT and observed the same. I did a dig challenges.cloudflare.com and by the time I'd figured out kind of what was happening, it seemed to have... resolved itself
I must say I'm astonished, as naive as it may be, to see the number of separate platforms affected by this. And it has been a bit of a learning experience too.
DigitalOcean + Gandi means nothing I run is down. Amazing. We depend far too greatly on centralised services where we deem the value of reputation and convenience exceeds the potential downsides and then the world pays for it. I think we have to feel a lot more of this pain before regulation kicks in to change things because the reality is people don't change. The only thing you can personally do is run a lot of your own stuff for things you can.
Individually, for you, what's the difference?
You use a service provider, if that service provider is down, your site is down. Does it matter to you that others are also down in that instance?
Might even be better to go down at the same time as everyone else, because customers might be more lenient on you.
DigitalOcean is indeed having issues.
> Application error: a client-side exception has occurred while loading www.digitalocean.com (see the browser console for more information).
Yellow flags on status.digitalocean.com *
Still nothing is down...
The sites I host on Cloudflare are all down. Also, even ChatGPT was down for a while, showing the error: "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed."
This is still the case for me
10.30pm here in Australia...
and my alarms are going off my and support line is ringing...
I cant even login to my CF dashboard to disable the CDN!
Edit: It's back. Hopefully it will stay up!
Edit 2: 1 Hour Later.
Narrator: It didn't stay up :/
Oh, look! Cloudflare is down. Let's check down detector to make sure it's not just me > Downdetector is using Cloudflare captcha. Yep, it's down.
This reminds me that I really like self-hosting. While it is true that many of things do not work, all my services do work. It has some tradeoffs of course.
Yesterday I decided to finally write my makefiles to "mirror" (make available offline) the docs of the libraries I'm using. doc2dash for sphinx-enabled projects, and then using dash / zeal.
Then I was like... "when did I last time fly for 10+ hours and wanted to do programming, etc, so that I need offline docs?" So I gave up.
Today I can't browse the libs' docs quickly, so I'm resuming the work on my local mirroring :-)
Is it me, or do the outages of single points of failure for large swaths of the internet tend to cluster within weeks/days of one another?
Anyone know why? Could be totally bias because one news story propels the next, so when they happen in clusters, you just hear about them more than when they don't.
There is an election in Denmark today, I wonder if this will affect that. The governments website is not accessible at the moment because it uses Cloudflare.
My tinfoil hat has me wondering if it's just coincidence.
What do we actually lose going from cloud back to ground?
The mass centralization is a massive attack vector for organized attempts to disrupt business in the west.
But we’re not doing anything about it because we’ve made a mountain at of a molehill. Was it that hard to manage everything locally?
I get that there’s plenty of security implications going that route, but it would be much harder to bring down t large portions of online business with a single attack.
> What do we actually lose going from cloud back to ground?
A lot of money related to stuff you currently don't have to worry about.
I remember how shit worked before AWS. People don't remember how costly and time consuming this stuff used to be. We had close to 50 people in our local ops team back in the day when I was working with Nokia 13 years ago. They had to deal with data center outages, expensive storage solutions failing, network links between data centers, offices, firewalls, self hosted Jira running out of memory, and a lot of other crap that I don't spend a lot of time about worrying with a cloud based setup. Just a short list of stuff that repeatedly was an issue. Nice when it worked. But nowhere near five nines of uptime.
That ops team alone cost probably a few million per year in salaries alone. I knew some people in that team. Good solid people but it always seemed like a thankless and stressful job to me. Basically constant firefighting while getting people barking at you to just get stuff working. Later a lot of that stuff moved into AWS and things became a lot easier and the need for that team largely went away. The first few teams doing that caused a bit of controversy internally until management realized that those teams were saving money. Then that quickly turned around. And it wasn't like AWS was cheap. I worked in one of those teams. That entire ops team was replaced by 2-3 clued in devops people that were able to move a lot faster. Subsequent layoff rounds in Nokia hit internal IT and ops teams hard early on in the years leading up to the demise of the phone business.
Yeah, people have such short memories for this stuff. When we ran our own servers a couple of jobs ago, we had a rota of people who'd be on call for events like failing disks. I don't want to ever do that again.
In general, I'm much happier with the current status of "it all works" or "it's ALL broken and its someone else's job to fix it as fast as possible"!
Not saying its perfect but neither was on-prem/colocation
Funny how I couldn't even check on Downdetector.com - because it takes me to a Cloudfare-run captcha, which is now stuck on loading.
The internet is officially down.
Strange thing is this is in multiple CD regions all using bot & WAF are down, just got a colueuge to check our site and both London & Singapour cloudflare servers are out... And I cant even login to the cloudflare dash to re-route critical traffic . Likely this is accidental, but one day there will be something malicous that will have big impacts with how centralised the internet now is.
From the Cloudflare status website: "Scheduled maintenance is currently in progress." Maybe something went wrong while doing maintenance?
They consistently have scheduled maintenance.
Some of my websites are down. Says it's the cloudflare network, when I click it it says generic things about my server likely being the issue.
Yes, most of things are down, recapthca, dns routing, proxy, etc.
all of my websites are down
I thought I would be clever by switching domain endpoints from proxied to dns but Cloudflare admin page is also not working correctly ;)
edit: it's up!
edit: it's down!
NPM also seems to be down due to this! https://status.npmjs.org
>Cloudflare Global Network experiencing issues
>Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available.
>Posted 4 minutes ago
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7
Things are back up (a second time) for me. It doesn’t sound like they are confident the problem is fully fixed yet though
Edit: and down again a third time!
Is there any way to remove every SPOF?
Currently I have multi-region loadbalanced servers. DNS and WAF (and the load balancer) on Cloudflare.
Moving DNS elsewhere is step 1 so I'm not locked out - but then I can't use Cloudflare full stop (without enterprise pricing).
Multi-provider DNS and WAF - okay I could see how that works.
But what about the global load balancer, surely that has to remain a single point of failure?
No? The point of cloudflare is that they remove the spof for you, but I guess we can say they didn't do it quite perfectly
It's the first time it's been down that I've seen a sensible error message.
But I was supposed to be commuting, so I guess I'll do that.
I had two completely unrelated tabs open (https://twitter.com and https://onsensensei.com) both showing the same error. Opened another website, same error. Kinda funny to see how much of entire web is ran on CloudFlare nowadays.
Love how everyone plays with redundancy - multiple hosts, balance loader, etc, and yet half of the web relies on single point of failure being CF
Indeed. And it feels really good knowing that our stuff isn't in that half.
Can't wait to read their post-mortem report
Why do people use the reverse proxy functionality of Cloudflare? I've worked at small to medium sized businesses that never had any of this while running public facing websites and they were/are just fine.
Same goes for my personal projects: I've never been worried about being targeted by a botnet so much that I introduce a single point of failure like this.
Any project that starts gaining any bit of traction get's hammered with bots (the ones that try every single /wp url even tough you don't even use Wordpress), frequent DDoS attacks, and so on.
I consider my server's real IP (or load balancer IP) as a secret for that reason, and Cloudflare helps exactly with that.
Everything goes through Cloudflare, where we have rate limiters, Web firewall, challenges for China / Russian inbound requests (we are very local and have zero customers outside our country), and so on.
people think that running nodejs servers are a good idea, and those fall over if there's ever so much as a stiff breeze, so they put cloudflare in front and call it a day.
It gives really good caching functionality so you can have large amounts of traffic and your site can easily handle it. Plus they don't charge for egress traffic.
I’m surprised your projects aren’t plagued by massive waves of scraping traffic like the rest of us. Count yourself lucky, not superior.
What exactly are you serving that bot traffic affects your quality of service?
I've seen an RPi serve a few dozen QPS of dynamic content without issue... The only service I've had actually get successfully taken down by benign bots is a Gitea-style git forges (which was 'fixed' by deploying Anubis in front of it).
It's chic. Young bois or adult pepl with boi like mentality.
What, they have Cloudflare and we don't? We also must have cloudflare. Don't ask why.
Now that you have it, you are at least level 15 and not a peasant.
Same applies to every braindead framework on the web. The gadget mind of the bois is the cause for all this.
Our national transit agency is apparently a customer.
The departure tables are borked, showing incorrect data, the route map stopped updating, the website and route planner are down, and the API returns garbage. Despite everything, the management will be pleased to know the ads kept on running offline.
Why would you put a WAP between devices you control and your own infra, God knows.
> Why would you put a WAP between devices you control and your own infra
Checkbox security says a WAP is required and no CISO will put their neck on the line to approve the exemption.
I was joking that after AWS, Azure that the Cloudflare would be next one...
So which large service we have left that could take chunk of internet out?
Gcloud
I think everyone is in the same boat with thinking they took something offline :^)
Concerning though how much the web relies on one (great) service.
I had just deployed. Started reverting commits like crazy.
I got an invoice from them right before the outage. Hopefully when they restore everything, they'll have forgotten about it!
Funny how I trusted Cloudflare first and started looking at restarting my servers, only to realize it's not me this time :)
The error even kinda says that. Still assumed it's me
ERROR [11:57:30 UTC]: EC2 Launch Failure. Reason: [Security Breach Remediation] Control Plane Metadata Service (IMDS) temporarily offline. System state reports: Dependency integrity check failed (Exit Code 0x80070002). Cannot retrieve authorized kernel image or block device mapping. Termination signal initiated for compromised worker nodes.
The irony of being in the middle of reading how Basecamp got off the cloud and the external link being down with a CF error :D
The non profit I volunteer at is unreachable. It gives a cloudflare error page which is sort of helpful. It tells me the the site is ok but cloudflare has an 500.
It’s been great, but I always wonder when a company starts doing more than it’s initially calling. There have been a ton of large attacks, tons of bot scrappers so it’s the Wild West.
yes they're spreading themselves very thin with lots of new releases/products - but they will lose a lot of customers if their reliability comes into question
I was trying to look up banana-based jokes (https://upjoke.com/banana-jokes) and discovered that London Cloudflare seems to be down.
Then, I tried various down detecting sites and they didn't seem to work either - presumably due to Cloudflare.
it's a slippery slope alright
It's back up, sites are working. Still wonder how long it's going to last. IF there's another blackout.
sites aint working in india
yes bro
So they broke the internet. Nice! Never seen so many sites not working. Never seen so many desktop app suddenly stop working. I don't want to be the person responsible for this. And this again has thought me it's better to no rely on external services. Even though they seem to big to fail.
"The issue has been identified and a fix is being implemented." According to CF a minute ago: https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/8gmgl950y3h7
Luckily for everyone including Guilhermo he can't dunk on the situation since x.com is down as well.
Down, but the linked status page shows mostly operational, except for "Support Portal Availability Issues" and planned maintenance. Since it was linked, I'm curious if others see differently.
edit: It now says "Cloudflare Global Network experiencing issues" but it took a while.
Using Cloudflare is a tradeoff between facing DDoS and other attacks, and the downtime of Cloudflare.
It would appear if you use a VPN in Europe you can still access Cloudflare sites, I have just tried, for me the Netherlands, Germany, and France work, but the UK and USA don't.
EDIT: It would appear it is still unreliable in these countries, it just stopped working in France for me.
I would love to see a competition for the most banal thing that went wrong as a result of this. For example, I’m pretty sure the reason my IKEA locker wouldn’t latch shut was because the OS had hung while talking to a Cloudflare backend.
Cloudflare Dashboard/Clicky clicky UI is down. I really appreciate that their API is still working. Small change in our Terraform configuration and now I can go lunch in peace knowing our clients at skeeled can keep working if wanted:
resource "cloudflare_dns_record"
- proxied = true
+ proxied = false
No logging in to Cloudflare Dash, no passing Turnstile (their CAPTCHA Replacement Solution) on third-party websites not proxied by Cloudflare, the rest that are proxied throwing 500 Internal server error saying it's Cloudflare's fault…
Feels like half the internet is down.
Our doctor's office can't make appointments because their "system is down."
I host everything on Linode (have for over a decade) and am never caught up in these outages.
Linode has been rock solid for me. I wanted to back this comment with uptime numbers, unfortunately the service I use for that, Uptime Robot, is down because of Cloudflare...
Time to consider alternatives: https://x.com/GithubProjects/status/1990804801811329329
I am glad my personal site is not affected, what would I do without all those incoming traffic.
[dead]
It's down here in Sydney as well. The status page hasn't been updated to reflect that
20% of websites worldwide are down.
source? would love to see
Investigating - Cloudflare is aware of, and investigating an issue which potentially impacts multiple customers. Further detail will be provided as more information becomes available. Nov 18, 2025 - 11:48 UTC
Yeah, those multiple customers is like 70% of the internet.
one way to mitigate DDoS is to enforce source IP checks on the way OUT of a datacenter (egress).
sure there are botnets, infected devices, etc that would conform to this but where does the sheer power of a big ddos attack come from? including those who sell it as a service. they have to have some infrastructure in some datacenter right?
make a law that forces every edge router of a datacenter to check for source IP and you would eliminate a very big portion of DDoS as we know it.
until then, the only real and effective method of mitigating a DDoS attack is with even more bandwidth. you are basically a black hole to the attack, which cloudflare basically is.
alright, what you are proposing is kind of hard to do. Source routing is not easy, and source validations is even harder.
and what prevents me, as a abuse hoster or "bad guy" from just announcing my own IP space directly on a transit or IXP?
You might say, the IXP should do source checking aswell, but what if ipspace is distributed/anycasted across multiple ASN's/ on the IXP?
Also, if you add multiple egress points distributed across different routing domains, it gets complicated fast.
Does my transit upstream need to do source validation of my IP space? What about their upstream? Also, how would he know which IPspace belongs to which ASN's considering the allocation of ASN numbers and IP space is distributed across different organisations across the globe. (some of which are more malicious/non function than others[0]). Source routing becomes extremly complex because there is no single, universal mapping between IP space and ASN's they belong too.
[0]https://afrinic.net/notice-for-termination-of-the-receiversh...
The biggest attacks literally come from botnets. There’s not a lot coming from infrastructure services precisely because these services are incentivized to shut that shit down. At most it would be used as the control plane which is how people attempt to shut down the botnets.
Unfortunately it seems like it, our service has lost a portion of our Cloudflare connectivity. We use their tunnels functionality.
Additionally, it looks like Pingdom/Solarwinds authentication is affected too - not a great look for a service in that category.
Cloudflare runs a high demand service, and the centralisation does deserve scrutiny. I think a good middle ground I’ll adopt is self hosting critical services and then when they have an outage redirect traffic to a Cloudflare outage banner.
Meanwhile my Wordpress blog on DigitalOcean is up. And so is DigitalOcean.
My ISP is routing public internet traffic to my IPs these days. What keeps me from running my blog from home? Fear of exposing a TCP port, that's what. What do we do about that?
> What keeps me from running my blog from home?
Depending on the contract it might not be allowed to run public network services from your home network.
I had a friend doing that and once his site got popular the ISP called (or sent a letter? don't remember anymore) with "take this 10x more expensive corporate contract or we will block all this traffic".
In general why the ISPs don't want you to do that (in addition to way more expensive corporate rates) is the risk of someone DDoS that site which could cause issues to large parts of their domestic customers (and depending on the country be liable to compensate those customers for not providing a service they paid for)
> Our Engineering team is actively investigating an issue impacting multiple DigitalOcean services caused by an upstream provider incident. This disruption affects a subset of Gen AI tools, the App Platform, Load Balancer, Spaces and provisioning or management actions for new clusters. Existing clusters are not affected. Users may experience degraded performance or intermittent failures within these services.
> We acknowledge the inconvenience this may cause and are working diligently to restore normal operations. Signs of recovery are starting to appear, with most requests beginning to succeed. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and provide timely updates as more information becomes available. Thank you for your patience as we work towards full service restoration.
It's not down for you, but for others.
Yeah, DigitalOcean and Dreamhost are both up. I actually self-host on 2Gig fibre service, and all my stuff is up, except I park everything behind Cloudflare since there is no way I could handle a DDoS attack.
It is a relief that they hosted the status page on someone else's infrastructure.
This is worse than than the Amazon outage. I couldn't even login to Cloudflare.
We finally switched to CF a few weeks ago (for bot protection, abusive traffic started getting insane this year), finally we can join in on one of the global outage parties (no cloud usage otherwise, so still more uptime than most).
Wow, with outage of a scale like this, it must be measurable as a loss in global GDP
I swear they all sleeping and that one guy on call is like "sheeeeet"...
Ironically, I was trying to access https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ at the time, which also went down due to Cloudflare.
It would have been ironic had this https://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/salesguy.html been hosted behind cloudflare.
Israel must be testing it's doomsday plans again
Wonder if the internet will soon be deleted.
Sure, blame the Jews. Idiot.
To be clear, they blamed Israel. Not that it helps make what they said any less idiotic.
Was back up for a moment ( within 5 minutes of being down), currently down again
In Yorkshire they would say "up and down like a bride's nightie"
...or a whores drawers
In Manchester perhaps ...
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/
even status page is giving 504 Gateway Timeout ERROR The request could not be satisfied. now in India
[dead]
ChatGPT and Claude are down as a result, too.
Y'know, along with most other SAAS services.
ChatGPT and Perplexity AI are down, I was just about to try and use ChatGPT.
All trains are stuck in south of France for « broken signalisation ». Wonder how related this is.
Edit: it was related
https://www.laprovence.com/article/region/83645099971988/pan...
Edit2: They edited the article stating it wasn't related.
If they do use Cloudflare... why in the everlasting name of Hell did they connect a railway control and signalling system to the Internet?!!!
Because javascript programmers are cheaper/easier/whatever to hire? So everything becomes web-centric. (I'm hoping for this comment to be sarcastic but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out not to be)
Don't say that, you might hurt the JS devs feelings
This centralisation is worrisome. Single points of failures have always been a bad idea, especially when that point of failure is out of your control.
PS:Someone really doesn't want Gemini 3 to get air time today
Hey, this is fun, all my websites are still up! I wonder how that happened? I don't even have to worry about my docker registry being down because I set up my own after the last global outage.
I had a lot of fun like you as well, until I got my first DDoS and bot attacks. There's a reason Cloudflare has 20% of internet traffic.
Does it cost you a lot?
One of my other worries is having fight bots over a couple hobby sites while I have other fires to put out (generally in life).
Wow, so much is down. Nothing Cloudflare protected is loading for me in Indiana, and the Cloudflare dashboard is broken as well.
I hope it gets resolved in the next hour or two, or it could be a serious problem for me.
Didn't have my site on cloudflare bc it would be faster for chinese users (its main demographic) so i THOUGHT i was fine for a second until i remembered the data storage api is behind cloudflare
Internet is down, I guess I'll just look out of the window for a bit
Ands its back. It was a very short window to look out of the window.
Not too much window to see anyway
Is anybody keeping statistics on the frequency of these big global internet outages? It seems to be happening extremely frequently as of late, but it would be nice to have some data on that.
Probably a good time to contact the CEO of Cloudflare.
Looking forward to the post-mortem.
This Internet thing is steadily becoming the most fragile surface attack out there. No need for nuclear weapons anymore, just hit Cloudflare and AWS and we are back to the stone age.
I discovered the problem by trying to access https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ ironically :)
We're on the enterprise plan, so far we're seeing Dashboard degradation and Turnstile (their captcha service) down. But all proxying/CDN and other services seem to work well.
[dead]
Came back up for a few minutes and has gone down again. https://www.cloudflarestatus.com has nothing.
Love that for them. Congrats on building such a re-centralized web!
Cloudflare is now a systemic risk for a state-sponsored attacker to bring down the entire web.
Why are we seeing AWS, then Azure, then Cloudflare all going down just out of the blue? I know they go down occasionally, but it's typically not major outages like this...
Update: It seems to be back, the downtime lasted maybe 5-6 minutes
Looks like it's going up and down intermittently, maybe something is only half-rolled-out.
Spoke too soon. The "internet" is down again.
I'm still seeing some sites not working - ironically they're down detectors:
https://statusfield.com/status/cloudflare https://statusgator.com/services/cloudflare
It came back up for me, now it's down again. EDIT: I am in the UK, using the London Cloudflare server.
It was down, then up, then back down for me.
EDIT: And it's back up.
EDIT EDIT: And it's back down lol
Down again in London
Still down for me.
Down... "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed." On every Cloudflare hosted website that I try. This timing SUCKS.......... please resolve fast! <3
Ah! Well, all of my websites are down! I’m going to take screenshots and have it as part of my Time Capsule Album, “Once upon a Time, my websites used to go down.”
Once upon a time, the end of the world happened
Yes, it impacted our services https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/
Most down-detectors are down due to their dependency on CF.
Cloudflare Mumbai, Bengaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad edge-nodes also unable to serve content.
x.com down.
Few quick-commerce apps are acting up at times.
You can't even turn off caching from Cloudflare because...the Cloudflare dashboard is down.
So everyone who's wrapped their host with Cloudflare is stuck with it.
Since when does critical infrastructure fail weekly?! One week is AWS, then azure + AWS, now cloudfare...
Time to go back to on prem. AWS and co are too expensive anyways
A lot of people are "on prem" but use CloudFlare to proxy traffic for DDoS attack mitigation, among other reasons.
If someone wanted to learn about how the modern infrastructure stack works, and why things like this occur, where would be some good resources to start?
I just wanted to ask the same thing. I have a really basic idea of how everything is connected but would love to jump in more in depth.
How can such big incidents occur where half of the internet is down because of one company and what can be done to prevent that?
Incident post mortems: https://github.com/danluu/post-mortems
I'm really surprised by the sheer scale of how many websites this outage is affecting. We really need to decentralize all of these monolith clouds.
I sometimes question my business decision to have a multi-cloud, multi-region web presence where it is totally acceptable to be down with the big boys.
That was something we discussed at my workplace.
Prior hosting provider was a little-known company with decent enough track record, but because they employed humans, stuff would break. When it did break, C-suite would panic about how much revenue is lost, etc.
The number of outages was "reasonable" to anyone who understood the technical side, but non-technical would complain for weeks after an outage about how we're always down, "well BigServiceX doesn't break ever, why do we?", and again lost revenue.
Now on Azure/Cloudflare, we go down when everyone else does, but C-Suite goes "oh it's not just us, and it's out of our control? Okay let us know when it fixes itself."
A great lesson in optics and perception, for our junior team members.
Many services have just disabled the CF proxy and use only DNS. If your end server has SSL and can handle some traffic, it might work for a while.
When this kind of thing happens it makes me feel better about my own programming problems.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the replicate.com purchase? Probably not.
Supabase is down bad too... need to work on my project!
Haha they updated their status page: "Identified - A global upstream provider is currently experiencing an outage which is impacting platform-level and project-level services"
A global upstream provider :)
Well that was quick. I saw a status saying server maintenance. And then it changed to “we’re looking into this” must’ve made an oopsie I suppose
ELON! GO AND KICK THOSE CLOUDFLARE ASSES!
or search a new job for yourself. Maybe digging to the earth core. Why? Idk. Because then you can say: I did it, or so.
CONTROL PLANE FAULT: CRITICAL SECURITY OVERRIDE enforced across us-east-1 and eu-west-2. ERROR CODE: STS.SecurityAuditLockout (403 Forbidden).
Context?
Glad to see things are actually working here! Also, my website (halomate.ai) is using CF too, and surprisingly, it's working fine as well
You spoke too soon!
What is funny us that on their global status list for services, everything looks green except "network" that is "offline".
Funny that their status page shows almost all locations “Operational” but they’re not. Are they updating the page manually and keep it green?
I assume the locations are operating fine, since you can see the error pages. The culprit here is probably the Network, which at the time of writing, shows up as offline
I started restarting my own servers thinking something went awry again, that's how much I usually trust them not to be down. Interesting.
Like AWS I can't help but think we're going to get more and more of these as the tech industry continues to DOGE its workforce.
Vibe coding too
The privacy kingpin in india, has been caught and most of the network are affected. We will be resuming the servers from Sweden shortly.
https://www.cloudflarestatus.com - has been updated.
Looks like the status page is suffering too because it can't load jQuery:
(index):64 Uncaught ReferenceError: $ is not defined at (index):64:3
ChatGPT isn't working.
No suicides created by ChatGPT Today. Billions of dollars in GPU will sit idle. Sudden drop of Linkedin content...
World is a better place
Whenever I try collapse root threads on this page it locks up the browser for 5+ seconds.
Windows 11, latest Edge browser, 64GB of RAM, 13th Gen i7.
>Windows 11, latest Edge browser
There's your issue
Windows 11 has some annoying UI decisions, but is otherwise 100% reliable for me and absolutely my OS of choice. Edge is essentially Chrome, but generally ties in better with the MS accounts ecosystem which I already use.
So, what, specifically, is the issue?
Does not happen to me under ubuntu, FWIW
Back up for me now
Down again
Yep - down again for me too!
Cloudflare issue is due to latency in DDOS errors.
>cups.servic
>foomaticrip
Form a [cerulean] type-font in the page-source.
Whole bunch of local South African sites are dead, with cloudflare http 500 errors. Can see Lisbon & Amsterdam crashing out.
Yep, got around 100 SMSs from our uptime monitoring service that our Cloudflare sites are down. Nothing much we can do but wait.
Just were talking about how Replicate might have better availability due to joining Cloudflare, and they too went down... Oops.
Its ironic that downdetector is down as well..
downdetector is up in italy
What a wild ride, the traffic to my site is more akin to a rollercoaster. Got better for a few mins and then fell back apart.
This one is bigger than the AWS East outage...
Lots of valid concern about us all using CF, but is their an alternative to their WAF that isn't enterprise expensive?
Yep, bunny.net is great, we also use it. And look at https://altcha.org as a Turnstile replacement
Depends on your needs, but for example there's Bunny Shield: https://bunny.net/shield/
Thanks for the pointer. They'd still wind up being a couple thousand dollars more annually than what we pay CF now.
Frustrating, because I know I'll get asked today if we have an alternative to using CF, and I don't have a good answer.
Keeps going up and down for me, I cant access DownDetector to check. The first website I noticed it on was Blender Artists.
Yes, all sites are down. Getting a 500 error from India.
Update: Looks like the issue has been resolved now. All sites are operational now.
Gemini and other agents are now failing when they search for something on the web. ChatGPT can't even be accessed.
I wish the "pause CF" button would work via API or via any other way, even if there is an outage like this.
Insane, my website https://geddle.com totally down
seems to work here
down again, all my website rely on Cloudflare DNS are down
Well it was bound to happen eventually, the "Down Roulette" has decided it should be Cloudflare this week!
Email workers of all things seem to have slowed down dramatically, although they're not down completely.
Cloudflare is the real backbone of the internet in 2025. It should be a globalized property like ICANN or something
How would that prevent outages? Honest question
makes you realise, if cloudflare or one of these large organisations decides to (/ gets ordered by a deranged US president to) block your internet access, that's a whole lot of internet you're suddenly cut off from. Yes, i know there are circumventions, but its still a owrrying thought.
just yesterday cloudflare announced it was acquiring replicate (ai platform) "the Workers Platform mission: Our goal all along has been to enable developers to build full-stack applications without having to burden themselves with infrastructure" according to cloudflare's blog, are we cooked?
I was reading up on home lab server racks, and every single site is down with a Cloudflare error. So much for DIY!
I'm genuinely curious how much of the web depends on cloudflare and AWS. This centralisation sucks though
Garmin site not working for example, and they removed the export option from the mobile application though.
Took down both Twitter and Rateyourmusic. This is a targetted attack against me specifically and nobody else
I would love to be a bee on the wall in the room where Cloudflare response engineers are working right now.
Well, was reading the docs for Express, and shouted wtf a couple of times, before seeing this post on HN.
Funny enough, it happened on the same day that AWS CloudFront launched their flat-rate plans!
Time to check Hacker News instead of work. Even my usual procrastination websites are down due to this.
ChatGPT was down so I couldn't work, go to lichess, turns out, it's down too now what do i do?
your username makes me wonder what exactly your job is, and what you need ChatGPT for
Touch grass.
Some CDNs are down too, for example cdn.tailwindcss.com And apparently I can't log into Hackernews?
Ironically, cloudflare.com is not down.
Yeah I wonder how that works
"Don't get high on your own supply"?
https://hacked.stream/
We really do have two surprise holidays every year: AWS Day and Cloudflare Day. Happy outages, everyone.
For some reason linear.app is working but according to their headers they should be behind Cloudflare.
According to the status page services are being restored
I still find a lot of websites/applications (including my own) affected.
Looks like it. Even sites like isup.me seem to be down, lots of cloudflare error messages across the net
Anyone seeing a link between AI-generated infra code and this year’s wave in popular service outages?
is there any way to get past challenges.cloudflare.com with tokens or something?
so stupid there is no fallback and can take down 50% of the internet
adding:looks like even Cloudflare's Silk Privacy Pass with challenge tokens is broken
such a great idea to put half the web behind a single fail point without fallover
Maybe this incident will make people rethink putting Cloudflare blindly in front of every website.
In theory even a single company service could be distributed, so only a fraction of websites would be affected, thus it's not a necessity to be a single point of failure. So I still don't like this argument "you see what happens when over half of the internet relies on Cloudflare". And yes, I'm writing this as a Cloudflare user whose blog is now down because of this. Cloudflare is still convenient and accessible for many people, no wonder why it's so popular.
But, yeah, it's still a horrible outage, much worse than the Amazon one.
The "omg centralized infra" cries after every such event kind of misses the point. Hosting with smaller companies (shared, vps, dedi, colo whatever) will likely result in far worse downtimes, individually.
Ofc the bigger perception issue here is many services going out at the same time, but why would (most) providers care if their annual downtime does or doesn't coincide with others? Their overall reliability is no better or worse had only their service gone down.
All of this can change ofc if this becomes a regular thing, the absolute hours of downtime does matter.
Exactly.
It’s been 45 minutes and I’m already looking forward to the day Kevin Fang makes a video about this
Suddenly feeling better about our 99.9% uptime SLA.
When even Cloudflare goes down, nobody can blame the little guys.
X is down, and many many other sites. This is not the web I grew up on. Do not centralize people.
It's interesting to see hacker news response time reaching almost 2 seconds for this post.
This is reason 1, 2 and 3 on my "Top 3 Reasons to not Put All Eggs in One Basket" list.
Almost every site I'm trying to connect to is down. The internet is way too centralized.
Things seem to be coming back up... been almost 45 minutes, since my first alert came at 0836
I was using Cloudflare WARP; had to turn it off to access most of the websites i visit daily.
They offer a great service for now, i hear.
Unfortunately, that means they can also break 75% of the internet.
How come cloudflare.com is still working, do they not trust their own orange proxy service?
Not affected using tunnels, CDNs.
it's probably related to the recent ddos attacks they helped mitigating.
Update: Cloudflare has announced they will be sacrificing their CEO at the alter in penance
Such a shame though. I wonder how long it's going to take before they bring it back up
Singapore is down as well in Asia
And here I was wondering why my website shut down & why I couldn't tweet about it
OK, it seems to be working again.
Nope.
Indeed, it worked for 2 minutes, but not anymore.
Yes.
I can't rebuild my NixOS image because of this lol. (chrome install not working)
I learned from reliable sources about a denial-of-service attack; everything went down.
I can't even load the dashboard to change to "DNS only". Nothing to do?
Has anyone else noticed a major drop in email spam with this cloudflare outage?
I've been waiting for hours, it looks like I can finally take a day off today.
Poland. Most of the popular sites are down. Including community forum on Cloudflare.
Cloudflare captchas don't work, which has taken down both Claude and Perplexity for me.
Lovely.
Crazy to think that it's apparently acceptable to centralize the web like that.
Seems like coudflare activated the maximum llm-scraper-bot-protection for everyone.
API still seems to work if you already have a script to hand to unproxy everything.
Just when I was assigned a task yesterday but decided to do it today early morning.
Even Twitter is down. Most of my customers are shouting at the top of their head!
I think Companies are firing wrong people that we get these downtimes so often.
For fun, I asked google what's an alternative to Cloudflare. It says, "A complete list of Cloudflare alternatives depends on which specific service (CDN, security, Zero Trust, edge computing, etc.) you are replacing, as no single competitor offers the exact same all-in-one suite"
Imagine using an all-in-one suite.
Cloudflare's own status page is not responding. I guess it's down too?
All Cloudflare websites are down!!!! When will it get fixed? I dont have time.!!
These big cloud providers are turning into giant off-switches for the internet
Ukraine. Sporadic outages as well. Error pages blame Cloudflare Warsaw servers.
So it begins. Now is the time to banish the evil presence from the internet. :D
I’m glad I have kindle in my bag today. Websites down but not much we can do.
Browser Working, Portland Cloudflare Error, apps.ideal-logic.com Host Working
The whole damn internet now depends on them. I guess I am bullish for $NET
Probably the IDF trying a mass network attack to go and Occupy the Holy See
80% of web sites I visited in last 15 minutes are not available anymore, LOL
Even downdetector is down, I can't get through the Cloudflate captcha.
Even downdetector is down, I can't get through the Cloudflate captcha.
So do we have a guarantee that posts are not made by AI for a few minutes?
What are the odds this is a human configuration error related to DNS?
Cloudflare fully down for me and my team, half of internet just vanished
Same we use cloudflare as image cdn and its R2 service a lot, cant access anything over its cdn route
Still ongoing. Some requests going through. Some get the cf error page.
at least https://xprice.ro is up, dont know how and why cuz we use cloudflare and we're hosting in germany/hetzner
down for india :/
interesting, working in Romania. So it's somehow related to they geo-balancing infrastructure.
i use checklyhq.com for my website status page and those are down as well...
https://sexyvoice.checkly-dashboards.com
Saw cloudflare go down before my very eyes on colonist.io in Australia
used a down-detector site to check if cloudflare is down, but the site is running on cloudflare, so i couldnt check if cloudflare was down for anyone else, because cloudflare was down
Off topic, but the 500 page from prusa3d is quite good:
https://www.prusa3d.com/
https://imgur.com/a/OW5KL8r
I was reading some novels today and then Bam! a cliff hanger now...
What is happening to cloudflare, anybody knows? Everything is down!
It's outrageous that it hasn't been fixed since 2 hours
Even twitter is gone. Where will I post memes mocking cloudflare?
If a cloud vendor with 1 million users experiences a long term outage: the vendor has a serious problem. If a cloud vendor with 1 billion users experiences a long term outage: the internet has a serious problem. Yada-yada-yada xkcd/2347 but it's the big block in the middle which crumbled
World infrastructure is taking a hit. First us-east and now this.
For cf tunnel alternatives are available, I maintain pinggy.io
Dallas CF is down, so basically every app and website is down.
Seems to work again. 40min downtime for many services it seems.
Seems like the merging with Replit didn't work so well :p
I tried to go to Downdetector before coming to Hacker News...
This is a nightmare situation, we can't get in anywhere
Would be funny if it was a record breaking ddos on cloudflare
The reason why you laugh
AWS, then Azure, now Cloudflare. Welcome to the AI era. Meanwhile my hetzner vServer has been running for three years without issues.
Waking up in East coast USA to all sites being down, yay...
What is that bright yellow thing in the sky?
The Eastern Herald news website is down. Easternherald.com
Our company is loosing money with every second of downtime.
Unfortunately downtime is just the cost of doing business. Everyone else using Cloudflare is in the same boat.
It also took chatgpt and claude , trying to access from pk
why do I always get "Server Error" and not an explanation that Cloudflare is having problems? This makes me look bad in front of my customers.
Is it me or do these outages happen pretty often lately?
https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jgrahamc
>I was Cloudflare's CTO.
A gentle reminder to not take any CF-related frustrations out on John today.
He's now on the Board so not left.
Not that I think blaming individuals on forums who are already under stress is a good strategy anyway.
His personal website is down too.
Oh no, we can’t take a (former) executive to task about what they’ve wrought with their influence!!! That would be wrong.
If anything, he should be the first to be blamed for the greater and greater effect this tech monster has on internet stability, since, you know, his people built it.
even the famous applications like Chatgpt, x.com are down
When's the last time Cloudflare had such an outage?
Same problem here in Italy. Website up and down again.
is anyone's hackernews lagging when loading the comments? ive seen posts with 2k comments before but for some reason this took longer
I’m assuming hard rock (bet) is run by cloudflare also
My static website hosted on cloudflare works :/
Also seeing this on my websites hosted on cloudflare
Third time's the charm? Seems more stable now.
It’s down worldwide practically, in the US,UK,NZ,AU
Even IN.
Did something happen to the Cloudflare lava lamps ?
More proof that central planning doesn't work
it's funny I first noticed this visiting a random blog, then went on X and got the same error... is Cloudflare the Internet now?
Getting a 500 error from cloudflare in Manchester
Whats peoples bets on the root cause of this...?
Their Oregon controlplane somehow? Either a misconfiguration of some sort (BGP??) or a power outage like they had before.
Even pornhub is down becuase it use cloudflare.
and when i tell people they dont need cf for most of their sites they laugh at me. look whos laughing now. theyre down, im up
ahahahhaahah
Couldn't work. Fuckin' cloudflare . Feels like 25% of the Internet is down.
Im going home. Time for a beer .
Greetings from germany
I just comment here to be part of the history.
Just when the eastern cities are waking up too.
Turnstile is throwing 500 internal server error
Ironic, Cloudflare taking DownDetector with it
Ironic, cloudflare taking downdetector with it
I was so scared, I thought my VPN had failed.
Cloudfare completely breaking the internet...
The whole internet hinges on this one company
Certainly most of the independent internet.
if you include amazon its actually 2
The status is still Red on their dashboard.
My uptime monitor OnlineOrNot is also down...
OnlineOrNot's fallen back to AWS for monitoring, so you should still be getting alerts.
The dashboard's API server runs on Cloudflare and is currently blocking all logins, will fix.
Twitter too is down, almost half the internet
my cloudflare pages website is down - 500 server error :(
cannot login to get to workers to check - auth errors
I thought this was the point of a cached CDN!
That must have been a really big backhoe...
Took quite a while for it to show up oddly.
When will Cloudflare actually split into several totally independent companies to remedy that they bring down the Internet every time they have a major issue?
just yesterday cloudflare announced it was acquiring replicate (ai to "help" it's workers) i believe
Cloudflare is a central point of failure.
My Window System seems to be working fine.
All my websites are down due to Cloudflare
some sites are already up again, including the cf dash and downdetector, both ironically down a few minutes ago
OpenAI & chatGPT also down from this
So ... any bets the cause isn't DNS?
We still doing BGP update typos?
Nope. Looks like they have a DNS-like configuration manager...
Searching for Cloudflare alternatives...
interesting that HN is not on Cloudflare but the YC website is behind Cloudflare so it's also down
Is this why x.com isn’t working right?
Yeah I just got a 500 error on medRxiv
Pretty sure they used Vibe Coding...
I hecking love depending on big corpo
All bets on DNS being the root cause.
Singapore Cloudeflare Server is down.
Testing the fences... clever girl...
Not out of the woods yet it seems...
this should affect a lot sites? I'm trying to access tailwindcss and I can't as well!
I am using cloudflare as back-end for my site (workers) but have disabled all their other offerings. I was affected for a short while but seems to be less affected than other people.
Not my site though
https://www.rxjourney.net/
Lol. I mean I love Tailwind but it seems like the least trivial site/service to be down right now haha.
Warsaw, Los Angeles and Newark down
Rome, Palermo, Milan, Catania Down
It took supabase and X down for me
thought i'd been hacked, was ready to throw in the towel for this career and my saas
Down in Australia and New Zealand
Yea, had trouble accessing Upwork
scaleway.com is down as well. I'm really wondering how a CSP can use cloudflare...
genuinely makes me sad for the people there. this must be a living nightmare right now.
Why? If any company has enough technical people, resources & processes in place it must be them, no?
Black HN ribbon for the Internet
I assume you're joking, but as an FYI, Rebecca Heineman died:
https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/legendary-game-desig...
what's a good alternative for their WAF, that isn't enterprise expensive?
The biggest learning for me from this incident - NEVER make your DNS provider and CDN provider the same vendor. Now, I can't login into the dashboard, even to switch the DNS. Sigh.
Back up for me now
Edit: and then back down again
Even ChatGPT.com is down! Wow!
Australia here. plenty down rn
Gpt and perplexity still down
Germany
x is also not working properly
yes absolutly yes, i have tried severak region and all of then receive 500 error
chatgpt.com is not working because they are relying on cloudflare for challenges
when ig went down, I came to X to post Now that X is down, is hn the place to be
Bucharest Cloudflare down too
ironically downdetector.com is down because they use cloudflare for challenges
Yes. I get 500 on my website.
Working just fine in the UAE.
God my favourite website pornhub.com is also down why onn earth cloudflare i just now came from school.
I'm betting on DNS fail
Forced to play Runescape now
I'm going to buy more.
pretty much just my twitter usage as of now. my sites dont use cloudflare
You
Browser Working
San Jose
Cloudflare Error
mysite.com
Host Working
Lol! Like a solar eclipse!
HN has become the place to check if any HyperScaler + Cloudflare is down.
while my colleagues are wondering why cloudlfare isn't working and are afraid it might be something from us locally, I'll first check here to make sure it's not a Cloudflare / AWS problem in the first place.
When was HN down for the last time? :)
I actually came here to check because downforeveryoneorjustme.com and downdetector are offline as well.
Downflare
Cloudflare'nt
Downflare
Oh the nuclear bomb proof network is unusable because someone sneezed over at Cloudflare.
aaa the only night im free to watch nana and cloudfare sabotages me T_T
hahaha this is nuts, can we connect to each other without cloudflare?
at least with Cloudflare, we may have the postmortem report tommorow
Yeah, dammit! NOT TODAY!!!
Waking up to chaos. Nice.
Let me guess, DNS issues?
Give me back ChatGPT pls
im just concerned now :l
downdetector.com is down because it uses cloudflare challenge....
Does requiring proof-of-work in order to connect accomplish 99% of what Cloudflare does?
Not even 1%
This is ridiculous:
They just posted:
Update We've deployed a change which has restored dashboard services. We are still working to remediate broad application services impact Posted 2 minutes ago. Nov 18, 2025 - 14:34 UTC
but,.. I'm stuck at the captcha that does not work: dash.cloudflare.com Verifying you are human. This may take a few seconds.
dash.cloudflare.com needs to review the security of your connection before proceeding.
Can we at some point acknowledge that constant cloud disruptions are too costly, and can we then finally move all of our hosting back on-prem?
It's the old IBM thing. If your website goes down along with everyone else's because of Cloudflare, you shrug and say "nothing we could do, we were following the industry standard". If your website goes down because of on-prem then it's very much your problem and maybe you get to look forward to an exciting debrief with your manager's manager.
That's lazy engineering and I don't think we as technical, rational people should make that our way of working. I know the saying, but I disagree with it. My fuckups, my problem, but at least I can avoid fuckups actively if I am in charge.
How do you mitigate large scale DDoS?
I don't, since my stuff is reachable only within the company network/VPN. If I needed to though, I would consult the BSI list of official DDOS mitigation services [0] and evaluate each one before deciding. I would not auto-pick Cloudflare.
[0] (German) https://www.bsi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/BSI/Cyber-Si...
When the solution you pick inevitably has downtime too you’re in the same boat.
DDoS mitigation is one of those areas that an on-prem solution just isn’t well suited to solve.
Yeah, but people aren't using Cloudflare just for DDOS Mitigation. Some are running pretty much everything over it, from DNS to edge caching to load balancing and even hosting. That's what I oppose mainly.
Unless you are really big, onprem stuff would be 90% internal anyway. For everything public you'd host your hardware in a datacenter with better high speed connectivity. And pretty much every single datacenter I interacted with in the last 5 years does have a DDOS protection solution that you can order for your network.
The problem is the people that sign our checks usually aren't technical, rational people.
The system isn't designed for technical, rational decision making.
That's fair, yeah, and I agree it's not always feasible - but if you have any influence over technical direction at your org, I encourage what I wrote above. Otherwise yeah, let the pea counters in the C-Levels dig their own grave.
Funnily and ironically enough, I was trying to check out a few things on Ansible Galaxy and... I ended up here trying to submit the link for the CF ongoing incident
I would only consider doing stuff on-prem because of services like Cloudflare. You can have some of the global features like edge-caching while also getting the (cost) benefits of on-prem.
can you define "constant"
Well, between AWS US EAST 1 killing half the internet, and this incident, not even a month passed. Meanwhile, my physical servers don't care and happily serve many people at a cheaper cost than any cloud offer.
We had an Azure outage in between those 2 as well.
You realize these are two different companies right? If you’re saying “I’m an AWS customer with cloudflare in front” I think you’ve failed to realize that two 99.9% available services in series have a combined availability of ~99.8% - that’s just math.
Your physical servers should have similar issues if you put a CDN in front unless the physical server is able to achieve a 100% uptime (100% * 3 9s = 3 9s). Or you don’t have a CDN but can be trivially knocked offline by the tiniest botnet (or even hitting hacker news front page)
I do. But I put both into the "cloud offering off-prem for very much money" shoebox. I setup a CDN once using VPS from different hosting providers for under 100 USD a month, which I would vastly prefer over trusting anything cloud.
And yes, I know that there's sites that need the scale of an operation like Cloudflare or AWS. But 99.9(...)% of pages don't, and people should start realizing that.
People who don't need that, also don't care much for an hour or two of service disruption. Most users will have far worse disruptions with the alternatives.
How do you back up?
We have a few colocated servers offsite, each in a different region, each with a zpool of mirrored spinning rust. We use rsync across those at different times.
never build on us-east-1, everyone knows that ;)
first time know a porn website i use is backed by cloudflare.
just scheduled maintenance in Tahiti guys, nothing to see here
could be related? Tahiti is a small island in the south pacific, seems rather suspicious
using a cloudflare tunnel for local dev work, completely down
Puup but, anyone else?
is this the result of AI software improvements?
Under Attack? SO DO I!
Cant websites have an auto backup/redirect in case cloudflare or AWS go down?
I can't access my fav porn sites, cloudflare Singapore host is down. Oh man!
I honestly think people should practice more chaos engineering themselves and switch off services at random like Cloudflare and have failure plans.
LETS GO ITS BACK ONN
Seems to be back up
Indonesia down also
even popular apps like x.com, chatgpt.com are down.
Man in the middle!
Is it down again??
It's back up.
the sheer number of websites this is taken down!
Probably they adopted vibe coding as the main way to write code
Another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45963781
UPD And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45963949
even in India there is cloudfare's outage
Is it DNS or BGP?
Why settle for just one?
Seems to be over.
500 from thailand
500 from Thailand
This one is huge.
This sounds huge.
Still down for me
I was about to cream watching my fav video on X and it is down
Down is Missouri
all the captcha's are also not working
glad to see hacker news is still working.
monopoly causes problems for all customers?
oh no, anyway
dl.acm.org down, arxiv.org has my back!
cursed at me ISP for absolutely nothing
Half of the internet is down. That's what you get for giving up the control of the service that suppose to be decentralized to one company. Good, maybe if it costs companies few billions they will not put all eggs in one basket.
I’m assuming Hard Rock (Bet) is run by Cloudflare too
Down in Taiwan
This seems to corroborate the recent controversial claims that American workers do not possess the aptitudes needed to succeed in the 21st century. If only we could have gotten more children to learn to code. Sigh.
Very true, clearly all these issues that started cropping up after fortune 500 companies started offshoring indicates they didn't offshore fast enough
Accelerate the eschaton.
even in india cloud fare has a outage
PEBKAC error
deny (clippy:: unwrap_used)
syntax error: unexpected semicolon
it took X , supabase down as well.
it works, then stops, then works
germany as well. Claude down too
X, Chatgpt, all kinds of sites and services around the eu, it's a massive outage
Right now is working in Italy: https://www.endoacustica.com/ I hope will be not down again.
the day the earth stood still
Europe down
Poland down
should we think about Akamai
cloudfare is down officially
It’s back.
Oh boy
SPOF
Why the hell is my claude saying "Please unblock challenges.cloudflare.com to proceed."
And then still failing anyway? Why do I need CloudFlare to access claude.io? Wtf?
AI companies don't want AI to use AI.
BLR Down
Seoul down
Jakarta
Its back!
YESS
Tokyo too
Yes (Asia)
I am paying for this shit service and this is my longest downtime I had in years. Can anyone recommend any other bottleneck to be annoyed with in future?
hacked.stream was down too
Feels like 25% of the Internet is down just because of fuckin' cloudflare.
I'm leaving the redaction because I couldn't work atm...
Time for a beer , greetings from germany!
akxeder.eth.ac is working
still down in Australia
guys hype up its backkk
We are doomed! Is it another vibe-coding disaster?
Now I can switch everything off and go home. We are not using CF at our site, but CF error it is a good reason to have a day off
Puup but, how about yous guys
My site https://mediamistrz.pl/ not working
Once again vindicated by running my own CDN and not living with the irrational belief that everything needs cloudflare.
supabase is down too
it comes back up now
africa down as well
Who is laughing now Elon ?
Aw man, how dare this affect me personally? :P (Tried to get to openstreetmap.org which is behind cloudflare.)
Cloudflare is still down
Seemingly nobody cares about being in two different availability zones. Or is this a deeper problem?
are we cooked :l
Telnyx seems to be down for me. Actually I lied, I think it is working. at least call connected.
claude.ai down too... lots of programmers are gonna have to pretend they code in another way...
Easy: "the site is done, it is fantastic, but cloudflare is down so you cant see it"
It's working fine for me
Yep, seems to work cause my nearby colleague started copy/pasting massive chunks of code again.
I guess claude is more important than your average site :)
For me right now, Claude.ai is down, but Claude Code (terminal, extension) seems to be up and happy. Suggests that API is probably up.
Ironically, Claude Desktop--which could be up if it simply used the API instead of doing the Electron webapp wrapper thing--is down.
anyone have reference for flutter opening +917494920753
are we cooked?
singapore down
I can't login in to Cloudflare itself because it is itself affected, holy bs
Now is as good a time as ever to look at moving our eggs into some other baskets
x.com is down
Almost like centralizing everything on a single service has consequences.
What?! No way! Keen to see the post mortem on this. Its always DNS.
poland down
Checks Cloudflare Status - yeah, everything's hunky dory bro.
A good reminder for advancing decentralization and p2p networks!
i am trying to this page https://cryptoquip.net/ but it is showing, Cloudflare Error
aisuru?
its back !
asd
yess ddos
yep
We're doomed. Is this another vibe-coding disaster?
I thought it was problem with my network lol XD
Just now it was acknowledge in the status page.
Yes. At least in Germany and Spain. Interment.
Cloudflare has always been a shit company.
Reminder that this is not the web we want.
akxeder.eth.ac is not down
facing cloudflare downtime
I'm betting on another DNS failure
cloudfare down in india
Aaaaand it's down again.
Dude what's up with X???
why does no one use google cloud? literally never has any issues lol
Expensive, hard to use, a million dashboards
because no one uses it
Bluesky still chugging along.
Just saying.
They are decentralized with servers all on the East coast that they self host. They do have points of failure that can take down the whole network, however.
What part of "single point of failure" do people not understand?
Stop. Using. Cloudflare.
how are we still down? it's been 2 hours lol
Ha ha ha hahahahahaaaa hahahahahaaaahahaha, fuck 'em.
Welcome to AOL.
in Japan, now, it's alive.
how about your location?
Just happy I wasnt IP banned lol
Bro what's up with X???
Bro no way bro what's going on bro? BRO?! Bro this is crazy bro like one of your cartoons that you jerk it to every day bro
Cloudflare fucking sucks
lol
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I'm weary of the broader internet having spofs like AWS and Cloudflare. Can't change routing or DNS horizons to get around it. Things are just broken in ways that are not only opaque, but destructive due to so much relying on fragile sync state.
Will my Spelling Bee QBABM count today, or will it fail and tomorrow I find out that last MA(4) didn't register, ruining my streak? Society cannot function like this! /s
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West's Great Firewall
/s
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The top black bar is appropriate /s
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Bruh I was watching porn on Twitter, I thought the FBI got my ahh.
username fits...
Who the fuck talks like this
do any of users facing cloudfare outage ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AWS, Azure, now Cloudflare, all within a month, are hit with configuration errors that are definitely neither signs of more surveillance gear being added by government agencies nor attacks by hostile powers. It's a shame that these fine services that everyone apparently needs and that worked so well for so long without a problem suddenly all have problems at the same time.
Most or all of these lost significant institutional knowledge through layoff after layoff and jobs moved to lower cost countries.
Maybe a coincidence or maybe not.
AWS was not a configuration error, it was a race condition on their load balancer's automated DNS record attribution that caused empty DNS records. As that issue was being fixed, it cascaded into further, more complex issues overloading EC2 instance provisioning.
I don't get how you ran to that conclusion...
Gemini is up, I asked it to explain what's going on in cave man speak:
YOU: Ask cave-chief for fire.
CAVE-CHIEF (Cloudflare): Big strong rock wall around many other cave fires (other websites). Good, fast wall!
MANY CAVE-PEOPLE: Shout at rock wall to get fire.
ROCK WALL: Suddenly… CRACK! Wall forgets which cave has which fire! Too many shouts!
RESULT:
BIG PROBLEM: Big strong wall broke. Nobody gets fire fast. Wall chief must fix strong rock fast!