Huang is absolutely losing the plot, salary is compensation for work done, for time spent away from other things in life, and to sustain your life outside of work.
Tokens as "compensation" falls into the not-even-wrong bucket, tokens are business expenses as input for work.
Edit: it's actually CNBC using deceptive language in the article, not Huang proposing paying people with tokens as brought up by OJFord [0].
Man, If I had a penny for every time HN jumped the outrage gun over statements taken out of context, or interpreted in bad faith, or over straight up misinformation simply because it's on an unpopular person/topic that's an easy target for people to attack without doing proper due diligence beforehand, I'd be able to afford a DDR5 kit. I'm glad there's people willing to go against the grain to clarify things.
That's why it's a discussion board, other commenters more informed about a subject can point out the deception/misinformation by CNBC and make me, uninformed about the actual origins of the CNBC deception, more informed and able to change opinion with more information.
Clarifying things is part of the process, the easiest way to get informed is to be wrong about something on the internet.
Isn't that part of the process? I read the article, I was misled by it (it was clearly framing it as part of the "compensation model"), and someone who had better info corrected it.
I'm very sure you don't do due dilligence and cross-checking every single bit of information you consume daily, you didn't correct it either, and just generated noise.
Many of Nvidia's employees probably use token outside of work. Just like they just cars, heath insurance, and other benefits that many companies provide on top of salary.
If a company can provide a service or product to employees cheaper than the market can, then it makes sense to provide it as a perk.
That is a valid way to look at it, sure, if you wish to drag along all the not-relevant negative connotations. But this is in addition to salary, so no different than other perks such as a company vehicle. And Nvidia employees could presumably work for other entities. Additionally, the tokens are for a very specific purpose, and not related to a life necessity in any way - you're not buying food with Nvidia tokens as was the case with company scrip.
He's saying it more like a learning & development or conference budget, that it's a tool people need and are going to ask about or want to hear they have a good level of access to when they're looking for a job.
(I've been looking and already asking about it, I think we're already there. Not because I need it personally, but partly just to understand what the AI use is like within the companies I've been talking to.)
I think you’re both right but missing a bigger issue which is the implication that these provided tokens are what the developers will use to develop with, at work “to be more productive”. That’s extra savage, today your work provides you access to AI, in the future you pay for that access out of your own “pocket”. It’s like being a lumberjack and having to bring your own chainsaw and gas.
It's still a big leap from what he actually said to assume that one would be restricted to an individual budget.
It's already variably the case or not (whether 'unlimited' or limited across the whole team) at different companies today.
All he's saying is that he expects to be paying not a couple of hundred a month per employee, or mere thousands, but about half of an employee's salary per employee on LLM usage. The article acts like he said it was going to come out of the employees' pocket directly with a corresponding pay-cut!
It's more like, being a lumberjack, they provide chainsaw but you provide gas. If you don't have tokens, use your muscle! If you have tokens, they promote you to the team lead, and you can sell tokens in the black market.
In the future, when AI is mandatory (as it is already in some workplaces, such as mine), token is in effect part of your compensation. You will need it for automation in your home, in your life, everywhere. AI will be the new smart thing -- and smart things today will be the new dummy thing.
Your appliances or computers in 2040 won't even run without tokens -- you can choose to find some scrape appliances or computers 50 years ago, repair and use it, but you have to build everything around it by yourself, because in the future, everything revolves around AI.
And of course, this is part of UBI that everyone wants, with a small twist -- I'm sorry to inform you, that based on your credit report, your UBI package for this year will be limited at 10,000 tokens per month. Behave, and you will get more tokens for next year.
Have fun in the next world. If you want a preview, and if you are working in a workplace that adopt AI extensively (i.e. your productivity is determined by how many tokens you consume, and your performance is estimated by such), simply remove AI from all of your workflow, and see what happens. I'm sure some people are still fine, though.
If it becomes mandatory in the workplace, it needs to be a work budget item, like other equipment, not as part of the compensation package. As for the rest of your prediction, I would have to be a complete idiot to pay for tokens to run a stove or a refrigerator.
I’m sorry, but they are already doing something similar for the TV. I mean the smart part. Sure, there are still dumb TVs but the writing has been on the wall for a long time. And it is from there that I see the future.
“ “I’m going to give them probably half of that on top of [their base pay] as tokens ... because every engineer that has access to tokens will be more productive.” “
It’s less of him saying it’s a bonus or a perk and more him saying expect to spend that much more on top of base salary to get enormous productivity boosts.
Now, I could see availability of these tools as an incentive to joining a place, which is no different than joining an engineering team because the use nice MacBooks.
Or just give them access to “tokens” as needed by business use-case? Doesn’t make sense to see this as a salary/benefit and then also expect them to use it for work related tasks.
I've worked for startups which provided perks management (companies covering food, transportation, that kind of thing).
We had to be super careful, because here in Europe there are limits to how much salary is paid non monetarily. You get the book thrown at you for exceeding limits - it is a fundamental rule to prevent workers "paid" with living services, which borders in slavery when abused.
Are there no similar protections in the US? Could you theoretically be paid fully in food and shelter with no laws broken?
I'd be really skeptical of taking this offer, okay if you give me a tokens and I use them to start up a side project do you now have ownership in that side project ?
It's different in every company, but a lot of them really don't like side projects. I imagine if you build anything worthwhile some Nvidia lawyers might try to claim ownership.
As far as I can see, at least some of the cost-of-goods-sold of a token is dictated by GPU costs (both purchase price, and operational costs). Surely if Nvidia continues to produce increasingly sophisticated GPUs, the monetary value of each token will decrease? Seems like a strange incentive for Nvidia to offer their employees.
EDIT: If the tokens are not intended as a form of perk/benefit as others have interpreted, I guess my point does not count.
What's happening in tech today is a very clear sign of the AI bubble.
Generally every new technology that increases produtivity is adopted organically. Employees don't protest, because they themselves see the benefits. And yes, those who fail to adapt eventually get left behind.
AI may very well be the same kind of leap forward, not denying that, but rather than rewarding productivity increases from AI companies have started to reward AI use itself. Token use is being measured. Lines of code written using AI is being measured. Workers are being penalized even if their productivity is higher without AI.
The industry is being driven by FOMO, and that never ends well.
that's weird cause if i am paid in tokens, how do i use those tokens on my employer's workflows?
shouldnt the tokens belong to the employer?
i understand the concept of an engineering having tools they own but if they're gonna shove tokens-as-utility down our throats, no boss, i'm not hooking you into my well water.
"Every employee across the industry should be given a shovel and asked to dig for gold. Completely unrelated – we are selling a new line of shovels for $49.99 a piece."
Reminds me of the pre-prohibition era where distilleries often paid their workers by giving them liquor (payment in kind) to manage liquidity issues.
This looks like a clever way to try to compete for talent without continuing to ratchet up pay, allowing Nvidia to continue to expand their debt without needing additional cash.
It's not clever or a new idea. Every company would want to save money by paying their employees in their own product to the extent they could get away with it. Workers have just been smart enough and organized enough not to fall for it in recent history.
Any time I see a pitch for companies paying people in things that aren’t money I think of the Simpsons bit where Homer finds $20 under the couch and is disappointed that it’s not a peanut.
There’s reasons why, because of what a company does, it’s able to offer you something for markedly cheaper than you’d get it on the market, so the arbitrage you can do by getting it at that discount may be worth it, like getting a free meal or drink when you work at a restaurant. But in most cases, money can be exchanged for goods and services and $1 of currency is always going to be more valuable than $1 worth of some commodity.
Huang is absolutely losing the plot, salary is compensation for work done, for time spent away from other things in life, and to sustain your life outside of work.
Tokens as "compensation" falls into the not-even-wrong bucket, tokens are business expenses as input for work.
Edit: it's actually CNBC using deceptive language in the article, not Huang proposing paying people with tokens as brought up by OJFord [0].
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47454487
No, it's CNBC that's lost the plot, totally misrepresenting what he said. I commented longer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47454487
Thank you for correcting the CNBC deception, it makes a lot more sense as part of a budget for devs similarly to educational/conference budgets.
Man, If I had a penny for every time HN jumped the outrage gun over statements taken out of context, or interpreted in bad faith, or over straight up misinformation simply because it's on an unpopular person/topic that's an easy target for people to attack without doing proper due diligence beforehand, I'd be able to afford a DDR5 kit. I'm glad there's people willing to go against the grain to clarify things.
Since pennies are not produced anymore and are exiting circulation, will you take a tokens instead?
Sure, I'm having an amazing time tinkering with LLMs.
That's why it's a discussion board, other commenters more informed about a subject can point out the deception/misinformation by CNBC and make me, uninformed about the actual origins of the CNBC deception, more informed and able to change opinion with more information.
Clarifying things is part of the process, the easiest way to get informed is to be wrong about something on the internet.
Isn't that part of the process? I read the article, I was misled by it (it was clearly framing it as part of the "compensation model"), and someone who had better info corrected it.
I'm very sure you don't do due dilligence and cross-checking every single bit of information you consume daily, you didn't correct it either, and just generated noise.
This is just a ploy to turn part of your salary into tokens. It's not going to be additive in the long term
Many of Nvidia's employees probably use token outside of work. Just like they just cars, heath insurance, and other benefits that many companies provide on top of salary.
If a company can provide a service or product to employees cheaper than the market can, then it makes sense to provide it as a perk.
Company scrip.
That is a valid way to look at it, sure, if you wish to drag along all the not-relevant negative connotations. But this is in addition to salary, so no different than other perks such as a company vehicle. And Nvidia employees could presumably work for other entities. Additionally, the tokens are for a very specific purpose, and not related to a life necessity in any way - you're not buying food with Nvidia tokens as was the case with company scrip.
He's not saying it like it's a benefit, part of the total comp, article is ridiculous. Here's the source (time stamped): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jw_o0xr8MWU&t=2h3m26s
He's saying it more like a learning & development or conference budget, that it's a tool people need and are going to ask about or want to hear they have a good level of access to when they're looking for a job.
(I've been looking and already asking about it, I think we're already there. Not because I need it personally, but partly just to understand what the AI use is like within the companies I've been talking to.)
I think you’re both right but missing a bigger issue which is the implication that these provided tokens are what the developers will use to develop with, at work “to be more productive”. That’s extra savage, today your work provides you access to AI, in the future you pay for that access out of your own “pocket”. It’s like being a lumberjack and having to bring your own chainsaw and gas.
It's still a big leap from what he actually said to assume that one would be restricted to an individual budget.
It's already variably the case or not (whether 'unlimited' or limited across the whole team) at different companies today.
All he's saying is that he expects to be paying not a couple of hundred a month per employee, or mere thousands, but about half of an employee's salary per employee on LLM usage. The article acts like he said it was going to come out of the employees' pocket directly with a corresponding pay-cut!
It's more like, being a lumberjack, they provide chainsaw but you provide gas. If you don't have tokens, use your muscle! If you have tokens, they promote you to the team lead, and you can sell tokens in the black market.
In the future, when AI is mandatory (as it is already in some workplaces, such as mine), token is in effect part of your compensation. You will need it for automation in your home, in your life, everywhere. AI will be the new smart thing -- and smart things today will be the new dummy thing.
Your appliances or computers in 2040 won't even run without tokens -- you can choose to find some scrape appliances or computers 50 years ago, repair and use it, but you have to build everything around it by yourself, because in the future, everything revolves around AI.
And of course, this is part of UBI that everyone wants, with a small twist -- I'm sorry to inform you, that based on your credit report, your UBI package for this year will be limited at 10,000 tokens per month. Behave, and you will get more tokens for next year.
Have fun in the next world. If you want a preview, and if you are working in a workplace that adopt AI extensively (i.e. your productivity is determined by how many tokens you consume, and your performance is estimated by such), simply remove AI from all of your workflow, and see what happens. I'm sure some people are still fine, though.
If it becomes mandatory in the workplace, it needs to be a work budget item, like other equipment, not as part of the compensation package. As for the rest of your prediction, I would have to be a complete idiot to pay for tokens to run a stove or a refrigerator.
I’m sorry, but they are already doing something similar for the TV. I mean the smart part. Sure, there are still dumb TVs but the writing has been on the wall for a long time. And it is from there that I see the future.
This is some bad reporting, IMO.
Here’s the quote
“ “I’m going to give them probably half of that on top of [their base pay] as tokens ... because every engineer that has access to tokens will be more productive.” “
It’s less of him saying it’s a bonus or a perk and more him saying expect to spend that much more on top of base salary to get enormous productivity boosts.
Now, I could see availability of these tools as an incentive to joining a place, which is no different than joining an engineering team because the use nice MacBooks.
Or just give them access to “tokens” as needed by business use-case? Doesn’t make sense to see this as a salary/benefit and then also expect them to use it for work related tasks.
I've worked for startups which provided perks management (companies covering food, transportation, that kind of thing).
We had to be super careful, because here in Europe there are limits to how much salary is paid non monetarily. You get the book thrown at you for exceeding limits - it is a fundamental rule to prevent workers "paid" with living services, which borders in slavery when abused.
Are there no similar protections in the US? Could you theoretically be paid fully in food and shelter with no laws broken?
I'd be really skeptical of taking this offer, okay if you give me a tokens and I use them to start up a side project do you now have ownership in that side project ?
It's different in every company, but a lot of them really don't like side projects. I imagine if you build anything worthwhile some Nvidia lawyers might try to claim ownership.
As far as I can see, at least some of the cost-of-goods-sold of a token is dictated by GPU costs (both purchase price, and operational costs). Surely if Nvidia continues to produce increasingly sophisticated GPUs, the monetary value of each token will decrease? Seems like a strange incentive for Nvidia to offer their employees.
EDIT: If the tokens are not intended as a form of perk/benefit as others have interpreted, I guess my point does not count.
Company paying you with company's currency to be used at the company store. What a new and refreshing concept.
What's happening in tech today is a very clear sign of the AI bubble.
Generally every new technology that increases produtivity is adopted organically. Employees don't protest, because they themselves see the benefits. And yes, those who fail to adapt eventually get left behind.
AI may very well be the same kind of leap forward, not denying that, but rather than rewarding productivity increases from AI companies have started to reward AI use itself. Token use is being measured. Lines of code written using AI is being measured. Workers are being penalized even if their productivity is higher without AI.
The industry is being driven by FOMO, and that never ends well.
that's weird cause if i am paid in tokens, how do i use those tokens on my employer's workflows?
shouldnt the tokens belong to the employer?
i understand the concept of an engineering having tools they own but if they're gonna shove tokens-as-utility down our throats, no boss, i'm not hooking you into my well water.
"Every employee across the industry should be given a shovel and asked to dig for gold. Completely unrelated – we are selling a new line of shovels for $49.99 a piece."
Sounds like his feedback loop is finally broken after years of logrolling with sycophants in government and higher ed.
Reminds me of the pre-prohibition era where distilleries often paid their workers by giving them liquor (payment in kind) to manage liquidity issues.
This looks like a clever way to try to compete for talent without continuing to ratchet up pay, allowing Nvidia to continue to expand their debt without needing additional cash.
It's not clever or a new idea. Every company would want to save money by paying their employees in their own product to the extent they could get away with it. Workers have just been smart enough and organized enough not to fall for it in recent history.
Great, we're bringing back scrip. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
996 culture, scrip, personalist rule, is there any shitty thing from 100 years ago Silicon Valley won't try to bring back?
[dead]
Just put the fries in the bag bro
Any time I see a pitch for companies paying people in things that aren’t money I think of the Simpsons bit where Homer finds $20 under the couch and is disappointed that it’s not a peanut.
There’s reasons why, because of what a company does, it’s able to offer you something for markedly cheaper than you’d get it on the market, so the arbitrage you can do by getting it at that discount may be worth it, like getting a free meal or drink when you work at a restaurant. But in most cases, money can be exchanged for goods and services and $1 of currency is always going to be more valuable than $1 worth of some commodity.