Initially assumed it was due to some sort of contamination or production defect.
Turns out people leave perishable and fermenting foods in the thermos, and after a while when opened, the pressure lifts the lid of the thermos at quasi-unimaginable speeds, striking the curiously unsuspecting humans straight in the face, with some instances causing permanent damage to vision.
Coffee is hot, but a pressure release system is cool too..
I really hope we get a video out of this to see how bad it actually is and how much "pressure" is needed for this.
> Incidents/Injuries:
Thermos has received 27 reports of consumers who were struck by a stopper that forcefully ejected from these containers upon opening, including complaints of impact and laceration injuries requiring medical attention. Three consumers suffered permanent vision loss after being struck in the eye.
That's an awefully large amount of reports about this. I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
> The Stainless King™ 470ml Vacuum Insulated Food Jar is the ultimate day to day companion to keep your food at optimal temperatures. Keep fruit fresh and vegetables cool for up to 14 hours while you take on the day. For your favourite soups, pastas or stir fry, they’ll stay warm for up to 9 hours – ideal for taking last nights left overs. You can be sure that your food will be perfect for consumption at lunchtime after you pack it in the morning. The wide mouth makes it easy to fill and clean, and comes crowned with a stainless steel lid that doubles as a serving bowl. Plus, it comes with a handy stainless steel spoon that fits neatly into the lid compartment.
It's meant for storing food, for anyone who is confused why someone would be.
> I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
Injuries nonwithstanding, the quality of the seal means it was an exceptionally well designed item for the purpose of storing 99% water.
side note: there's a reason you get a visit from the FBI if you buy ten pressure cookers (e.g. if you find a great Black Friday deal and have a large family and plan Christmas gifts...)
You can make bombs out of pressure cookers. Since they are so good at holding pressure, you seal off the over-pressure release valves and then pressurize them until they burst (usually via some stupid or illegal means to begin with) then when they burst there is a ton of excess pressure. Big pressure = big boom.
But if you're not working with cutting torches and welding equipment, there's no easy way to open a propane tank enough to put an explosive in it (assuming purely amateur equipment) and then seal it up again good enough to hold high pressure. A pressure cooker on the other hand is ready made to have a big opening to put lots of stuff inside and then seal it up again.
The pressure build up can be quite a lot from fermentation. I’ve accidentally fermented drinks in glass swing top bottles. And upon attempting to open the bottle the pressure ripped the stopper and the metal parts right off the bottle at high speed.
If you were purposely fermenting something, you could build enough pressure to pop the bottle.
I also found this the hard way, once you open a bottle of kefir or yogurt and then close it again to drink/eat later, the fermentation process speeds up due to the additional oxygen, building up pressure until you open it the next time. Fortunately no one got hurt.
Thermos jars have interior threads for an inner plug and an exterior thread(singular) for the cosmetic cap that doubles as a drinking cup. Maybe there's a condition where the external cup would be holding the inner plug from releasing, and then upon removing the cap, the entire lip starts tapering outward and lets go of the plug without gradually relieving pressure.
(to be fair, I don't think an externally threaded cap will solve this problem. If the thread held to a higher pressure, then the core part of the plug will eventually blow out even more energetically. An overpressure vent port is still necessary)
Thats all? What happens if the jar is turned upside down in this case? What if something is set on the lid? What if the jar is with someone heading to a camp site in a 4 wheeler and it is vibrated a lot?
The cap is rigid. Either the threads constrain movement or they don't. A section of threads that allow for movement would still find the overall system constrained by other threading.
The pitch stays the same. The simplest way is tapered threading with a sufficiently deep groove to retain when only the first few threads are engaged. Less simple is a custom male profile that transitions into a squared ACME like profile to let gas leak by.
Yes, the article seems to be not detailed enough. They show the pictures, and it is evident what the pressure release valve is, but I agree that by this logic any container or any steel water bottle is dangerous. Maybe there is some other additional feature that makes it particularly dangerous compared to other models (like, the new seal keeps higher pressure, or the lid needs fewer rotations to disengage, etc.) that is not explained here and makes all the difference. Older models didn't even have a pressure relief valve, did they?
The bottles were sold as "drink and food" bottles, but expiring/fermenting food turns the food bottle into a pressure vessel.
I was initially surprised too, because I mostly know Thermos from their coffee/water/etc bottles, but apparently they're also selling these with the intention of storing perishable goods, and in that case a pressure relief system of some kind is a necessity.
Often bottles have special threads with holes in them to let out the pressure when you twist them open, but it appears they didn't do that here.
No. If we're recalling a product for a safety issue, it is not user error. There is an engineering error, or a design error, or a manufacturing error. Whatever the product is doing it should not be doing.
It's trivial to design a cap that leaks before it becomes mechanically free, and most lids are so designed. If this one becomes mechanically free at or before the seal allows any pressure differential to equalize, then it's an avoidable design defect that fails to meet current minimum standards.
Everyone who knows what a microwave is knows microwaving a dog kills it.
How many people do you think realize that pressure can build up in a thermos if leftover food or drink ferments in it?
And even if you know the danger, how do you know if the thermals bottle you are holding is dangerous or not? Should people call the bomb squad every time they see a thermos with unknown contents inside?
I've never seen a thermos-style container with a pressure relief in my life. However, I'm European, it appears that in the US (a country where you have to write disclaimers on microwaves that you shouldn't dry hamsters in them) common sense has been going down the toilet.
Frankly, I'm all for a bit of darwinism here. It's bewildering that there are people who think it's a good idea to open a thermos that has been fermenting for days if not weeks without a lot of caution!
But all your last statement really does is make the problem someone else's, and more dangerously, because the design doesnt help even with caution.
If I have made an accidental kimchi bomb then I will want to defuse it safely before I dispose of it. If I put it in the trash and leave it for the refuse collector there is risk that it blows up in their face without any warning. That's a much worse outcome. The root issue here is that this thermos design doesnt have a way to safely defuse it.
I bet you actually have. Its those gaps in the threads for screwing on the lid. The pressure get escape through these gaps while the lid still stays on the bottle.
Most lids you've ever used have pressure relief. It's not an extra part or valve or anything, it's just the simple geometry to ensure that the seal opens before the lid becomes mechanically free.
Thermos has only been producing flasks since 1904. There shouldn't be an expectation that they already have this on a checklist of things to watch out for in new designs. /s
I said "given it should be there" because Thermos have just issued a recall notice where they openly admit liability and they openly state it should be there (see side by side photos in the recall).
I was never seeking to pass judgement on the factual element of whether "it should be there" in the pure definition of the term.
I was just saying "it should be there on THAT product because Thermos says so".
On a planet where fermentation exists, such as planet Earth, the only planet on which we, humans, reside and therefore where these containers are made and used, that means pressure.
Isn't the point of a thermos to put "perishable and fermenting foods" in it, like coffee or tea? Like this could totally have been me, like make a thermos-full of coffee one day, then forget about it only to come back to in some weeks just to open it and have one of my eyes blown off
If you expect that it's rotted, you haven't really forgotten it. That's the whole point: they expected empty containers. Which could happen to you, being (presumably) a human.
Thermos bottles are relatively heavier to their contents than flimsier bottles. That goes double if they're only half full. I have a couple of the recalled bottles, so I just weighed one - 14 ounces empty.
I own a vacuum-insulated flask that is not Thermos®. I purchased it with a one cap and immediately purchased an accessory cap.
The original cap from the store has no pressure-release mechanism, other than the breaking of the seal when unscrewing it. The cap has an integrated carrying handle, which can also help when turning the cap one way or another.
The accessory cap has a "sippy cup" feature along with a pressure-release valve. It is very common to have a second valve with any vessel that pours or dispenses liquid, even a lemonade tank, because that's how pouring works. When you remove liquid from the container, it must be replaced by a commensurate volume of air.
Any (sealed) container designed to hold hot things should have a pressure release system.
It can be seals that buckle before the lid. It can be a tiny hole with a soft rubber stopper. It can be one of many things that cost a couple of cents extra and a bit more engineering and testing effort.
The cheapest disposable coffee cups I've used have a tiny hole for the express purpose of not pressurizing and spilling hot liquid everywhere.
There's a lot of conversation in the comments about "was there was an expectation that the pressure release valve would be there" There absolutely is a safety expectation that a sealed container of hot food is designed with a pressure release system.
BTW the fermented food thing is a misdirection. The pressure release system should have released pressure way before it even reached ballistic territory.
My steam cleaner recently was recalled and sent me a new cap with a built-in pressure-locking valve. People were opening it too early and getting burns. Heat and pressure can be very dangerous.
That sucks. I have both and the ones with the pressure relieve valve are a pain in the ass to clean. You have to pull out the rubber inner thingy, you can't get a towel inside the hole that thingy goes into, and in general the rubber thing gets lost easily. I wish Thermos would send me a few of those 8 million stoppers, I'll promise I won't be a dumbass with them :(
That's not very empathic of fellow people who might just have mistakenly forgotten food in the container.
It's not like they were intentionally using this for brewing some illegal substance or misusing it in a way specifically forbidden in the manual or obviously unsafe (e.g. removing a magnetron and all of its protections from a microwave to make pretty wood carvings).
I wonder if they track how many people are sickened by the difficult-to-clean valve, because I bet it's a lot more than 3.
Luckily I got one of the valveless models, and you bet your ass I'm keeping it. Maybe I'll stick an "open away from face" label on top or something, but I'm not about to go increasing my risk of food contamination.
There's not really any way to make anything containing hot pressurized foods safe from people pointing it at their face. Either you get the lid in your face or you get steam in your face. The poor hygiene the vent creates is just an added bonus.
I'd rather they slap a warning on it, like everything else that you can't safely point at your face.
Can you also guarantee with absolute certainty that you'll never forget them anywhere another person who's unaware of the contents or the danger could find them?
If I buy a lawn mower, I don't expect anyone to guarantee with absolute certainty that there will never be a person who thinks 'hey maybe I can just stick my hand in there to unclog it' and gets their fingers chopped off. Probably a wrong analogy but I can't even be bothered to think it through, of course fermenting food causes things to explode, how is that even remotely the fault of the manufacturer? I loathe the times we live in where everything needs to be padded and cushioned because heavens forbid we start expecting people to think for a second. I mean, the valve requires a crevice where all sorts of things can grow (I've seen them, I've cleaned these things after they were left in a school bag throughout two weeks of school holidays with food in them), I'm not going to complain that it would somehow be Thermos' fault if one of my kids got sick off something getting stuck in there. At some point, there is such a thing as 'personal responsibility'.
I get your take that people should take the responsibility for things they are doing.
Without arguing your point there are a couple more things to consider from the perspective of the company and the society at large.
From the company perspective, if their product gets a bad reputation the sales will be worse. This could even extend beyond the one product. It doesn't matter if it is fair or nuanced at all. Even if everyone is a moron, investing in protecting the morons from themselves could be a good business decision.
From the society perspective, there is a positive-for-business intent in forcing a baseline for consumer safety and satisfaction. Threading that needle is of course hard but it makes it easier for a free market of consumer products to exist as a whole if the consumers can offload some of the investigation required before committing to something. The idea is that in a 100% buyer beware situation there is less buying overall and the market can't be big and as full of options because the cost/risk of buying isn't worth the end goal. You can make the counter argument that the trust should be part of the brand value but it might enable new companies and new products more effectively (making more good options in a free market) to reduce the consumer risk of purchasing their products.
Additionally, if everyone is doing the same prerequisite research (is this safe before I buy), it makes sense to consolidate this step either through curation/certification groups (the people who care fund it themselves - makes sense for specific preference choices [eg "plant based", "cruelty free"] or niches [eg "gluten free", "non gmo"]) or regulation (everyone funds it collectively - makes sense for broad application like "will I get food poisoning" and "am I risking being maimed").
Beyond personal purchases there's also society wide implications worth preventing for things like if a million cars exploded or if 10% of profession X and profession Y ended up losing fingers.
Like I said, not arguing with you about if people are dumb and if companies should be required to pay to deal with that, just pointing out there are other reasons a system might be in place beyond just a patronizing nanny state situation.
>Can you also guarantee with absolute certainty that you'll never forget them anywhere another person who's unaware of the contents or the danger could find them?
Why does he need to do that?
We're talking about a product that lightly injured ~20 people for ~8mil units sold and seriously injured ~3.
Should be be keeping his champagne in a protective enclosure?
I've seen Champagne disappear faster off the shelf more so around MBA's who are celebrating accomplishments having dubious value, compared to engineers who have actually achieved remarkable milestones ;)
There is a well known solution. Look at most PET bottles. The thread (mostly on the cap) is not continuous. That's for the pressure to relieve before the cap is off, and that could happen from a coke bottle or so to you.
I too from the headline assumed it was some sort of chemical contamination during manufacturing.
But then I read the words "The malfunction is due to multiple models of containers missing a pressure relief function in the center of the stopper."
How non-existent does your quality assurance have to be in order to miss such a critical, obvious and easy to identify flaw ?
Looking at the published photographs, you don't even need training to identify that manufacturing defect. A five year old could spot the difference between "lid has a hole" and "lid does not have a hole".
I've never seen a thermos bottle with a relief valve. Not sure if all manufacturers in Europe have nonexistent QA or if it's just not a thing that's commonly needed since you can't heat the contents up in there anyway (it's not like an insulated water boiler, which does have a release valve). Never considered that someone might leave food in there long enough to build up explosive pressure. Feels a bit like saying a missing cat detector function in microwave ovens points at them having no quality control
I bet you’ve been using these your whole life without knowing it: in non-USA thermoses, the lid releases pressure before becoming mechanically free. You’d hear a “pop” and then the lid has to be twisted slightly further before it can be removed.
Not all safety features have to be obvious/obtrusive.
I see no hole in the metal anywhere on the inside. The only non-metal part that touches the inside is a rubber(?) gasket/ring thingy that sits above the thread and is squeezed by the lid, which I take out to clean and there's only metal under there as well. How would this work? Did I get the exceptional model that doesn't have one and just didn't look at other models closely enough?
Happened to me once. I was emptying one of my child’s thermoses in the bathroom when it suddenly "exploded" and sprayed the contents all over the bathroom walls. Quite a remarkable day :)
I didn't consider it a defect, though. I can hardly imagine cheap products adopting this solution.
If it's a forceful opening and you're not holding the top tightly, then I imagine the top could launch upwards. I know from experience this can also happen if you put just a bit of boiling water in and seal it. The air expands under heat and will push the top out whilst you're unscrewing. A version of this top comes with a metal spoon & raised holder built in, providing some edges to hit you with and an extra projectile.
This suggests a "knife skills" automatic habit to cultivate:† Whenever opening anything, point it away from your face, or at least move your face out of the line of fire. (Champagne, soda bottles, whatever.)
† "Knife skills" automatic habits = things such as, • always cut away from yourself; • whenever holding something down with the non-knife hand to be cut, curl that hand's fingers under, so that the non-knife hand's knuckles serve as a guard for that hand's finger tips.
Had this happen to me once, though totally my own fault. Was brewing kombucha, and left it out in the bottles a little too long before burping.
Me standing there, kombucha and peach slices pulverized against the cap, kombucha leaving a large mark on the ceiling it all happened so fast, glad I was wearing my glasses.
No injuries except my pride, but it did take some hours to clean up.
I wouldn't do it in a thermos, but I guess those are mostly accidents?
It was bramble beer for me. Put a load of lovely ripe brambles in a batch of homebrew beer, one of the little pithy bits on the inside wedged up against the bottom of the airlock, and overnight the pressure built up enough to pop the cork out and spray the ceiling with brambly splats and beer.
Tasted okay though.
My mate brewed his bramble beer by putting his brambles through a juicer and only adding the juice and pulp, because he's cleverer than me and has a certain amount of foresight.
This happened at the hospital I currently work at a couple years ago. A patient was brought some chicken noodle soup hot in the thermos but didn't open it. A few days later I was working night shift on that floor when we all heard a sound resembling a cross between a BOOM and a BANG (something you don't expect at 2AM). There was his thermos at the bedside table with no lid, still sitting upright. Scattered around (both floor and ceiling) was some fermented soup smelling of fermenting vomitus. And a lid-sized-and-shaped hole in the ceiling.
The one without the relieve valve is nicer to use because it's (much) easier to clean. Source: I've cleaned these things pretty much every weekday for the last 2 or 3 years.
I hate life a little bit more every time I stumble upon stories like this. Anything and everything can happen to you, suddenly, without warning, without planning, not necessarily because of any obvious fault of your own (from your perspective, at least). "Oh, you thought you already had enough problems and worries as it is? Congratulations, now you are blind in one eye, forever, because you wanted to keep your coffee warmer for a little longer."
At this point it’s basically a risk to buy anything new from a large company who’s products are most likely worse than ever in terms of cost-cutting materials, build quality, and design.
So who decided to cut costs by "simplifying" the lid design? A case of Chesterton's fence perhaps?
My partner has one of these so just checked it. It does have the pressure relief feature, but it turns out it's also missing all the seals anyway so never would have been a problem!
Initially assumed it was due to some sort of contamination or production defect.
Turns out people leave perishable and fermenting foods in the thermos, and after a while when opened, the pressure lifts the lid of the thermos at quasi-unimaginable speeds, striking the curiously unsuspecting humans straight in the face, with some instances causing permanent damage to vision.
Coffee is hot, but a pressure release system is cool too..
I really hope we get a video out of this to see how bad it actually is and how much "pressure" is needed for this.
> Incidents/Injuries: Thermos has received 27 reports of consumers who were struck by a stopper that forcefully ejected from these containers upon opening, including complaints of impact and laceration injuries requiring medical attention. Three consumers suffered permanent vision loss after being struck in the eye.
That's an awefully large amount of reports about this. I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
> The Stainless King™ 470ml Vacuum Insulated Food Jar is the ultimate day to day companion to keep your food at optimal temperatures. Keep fruit fresh and vegetables cool for up to 14 hours while you take on the day. For your favourite soups, pastas or stir fry, they’ll stay warm for up to 9 hours – ideal for taking last nights left overs. You can be sure that your food will be perfect for consumption at lunchtime after you pack it in the morning. The wide mouth makes it easy to fill and clean, and comes crowned with a stainless steel lid that doubles as a serving bowl. Plus, it comes with a handy stainless steel spoon that fits neatly into the lid compartment.
It's meant for storing food, for anyone who is confused why someone would be.
> I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
Injuries nonwithstanding, the quality of the seal means it was an exceptionally well designed item for the purpose of storing 99% water.
side note: there's a reason you get a visit from the FBI if you buy ten pressure cookers (e.g. if you find a great Black Friday deal and have a large family and plan Christmas gifts...)
I’ve exhausted the branches of my imagination, what is the danger of 10 pressure cookers?
You can make bombs out of pressure cookers. Since they are so good at holding pressure, you seal off the over-pressure release valves and then pressurize them until they burst (usually via some stupid or illegal means to begin with) then when they burst there is a ton of excess pressure. Big pressure = big boom.
They are exactly as good as any other pot made of 18/10 steel with similar thickness. Other vessels like propane tanks are much better.
Boston marathon worked because - well pressure cookers at the time didn't draw much attention to them.
But if you're not working with cutting torches and welding equipment, there's no easy way to open a propane tank enough to put an explosive in it (assuming purely amateur equipment) and then seal it up again good enough to hold high pressure. A pressure cooker on the other hand is ready made to have a big opening to put lots of stuff inside and then seal it up again.
They make great bombs.
there's tons of material online from religious radical groups on how to turn one into an IED
e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspire_(magazine)
"Make A Bomb In The Kitchen Of Your Mom" sounds like the beginning of a teenager's bad joke
under no circumstances should you google the anarchist's cookbook
Find me a news story about a person who got a visit from the FBI after buying 10 pressure cookers.
That beggars the imagination. You think the FBI is monitoring the sales of every restaurant supply store?
Here's a story in the Guardian about a women who was visited by local police in New York after her family searched for pressure cookers and backpacks.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-polic...
Though it turns out the truth might be more complicated and it may have been her husbands employer triggering the search, not the FBI? https://www.darkreading.com/cyber-risk/pressure-cooker-flap-...
The pressure build up can be quite a lot from fermentation. I’ve accidentally fermented drinks in glass swing top bottles. And upon attempting to open the bottle the pressure ripped the stopper and the metal parts right off the bottle at high speed.
If you were purposely fermenting something, you could build enough pressure to pop the bottle.
Yep. I once had half a bottle of kefir end up all over my kitchen ceiling. After that, I always opened them outside, pointing away from anyone.
> half a bottle of kefir
I also found this the hard way, once you open a bottle of kefir or yogurt and then close it again to drink/eat later, the fermentation process speeds up due to the additional oxygen, building up pressure until you open it the next time. Fortunately no one got hurt.
I'm guessing pressure is not allowed to escape before it's on the last thread.
Thermos jars have interior threads for an inner plug and an exterior thread(singular) for the cosmetic cap that doubles as a drinking cup. Maybe there's a condition where the external cup would be holding the inner plug from releasing, and then upon removing the cap, the entire lip starts tapering outward and lets go of the plug without gradually relieving pressure.
(to be fair, I don't think an externally threaded cap will solve this problem. If the thread held to a higher pressure, then the core part of the plug will eventually blow out even more energetically. An overpressure vent port is still necessary)
All they need is a section of threading that gets looser to release pressure while it is still retained in the top.
Thats all? What happens if the jar is turned upside down in this case? What if something is set on the lid? What if the jar is with someone heading to a camp site in a 4 wheeler and it is vibrated a lot?
You have a section of threads that seal or have a gasket. This is simpler than a relief valve that can leak or collect bacteria.
The cap is rigid. Either the threads constrain movement or they don't. A section of threads that allow for movement would still find the overall system constrained by other threading.
The pitch stays the same. The simplest way is tapered threading with a sufficiently deep groove to retain when only the first few threads are engaged. Less simple is a custom male profile that transitions into a squared ACME like profile to let gas leak by.
I'm a little surprised it's a recall - is there some expectation that it should have pressure release? Can you not sell simpler products legally?
Yes, the article seems to be not detailed enough. They show the pictures, and it is evident what the pressure release valve is, but I agree that by this logic any container or any steel water bottle is dangerous. Maybe there is some other additional feature that makes it particularly dangerous compared to other models (like, the new seal keeps higher pressure, or the lid needs fewer rotations to disengage, etc.) that is not explained here and makes all the difference. Older models didn't even have a pressure relief valve, did they?
I guess the amount of rotation needed between “airtight seal gets broken” and “lid can come off” is fairly short for these thermos.
If the difference is, say, a full 360° turn, pressure will get relieved before the lid can come off.
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48006887. Apparently, many bottles have discontinuities in the threading to allow for that.
> is there some expectation that it should have pressure release?
Scroll down in that article to the section with photographs of "recalled" and "not recalled" lids side by side.
Why is there an expectation that it should be a required feature?
The bottles were sold as "drink and food" bottles, but expiring/fermenting food turns the food bottle into a pressure vessel.
I was initially surprised too, because I mostly know Thermos from their coffee/water/etc bottles, but apparently they're also selling these with the intention of storing perishable goods, and in that case a pressure relief system of some kind is a necessity.
Often bottles have special threads with holes in them to let out the pressure when you twist them open, but it appears they didn't do that here.
Well for one, so it doesn’t get recalled after getting a reputation for making people blind
[flagged]
From the Consumer Product Safety Commission https://bsky.app/profile/cpsc.gov/post/3mkpsy7mgkk2j
"Is this user error?"
No. If we're recalling a product for a safety issue, it is not user error. There is an engineering error, or a design error, or a manufacturing error. Whatever the product is doing it should not be doing.
It's trivial to design a cap that leaks before it becomes mechanically free, and most lids are so designed. If this one becomes mechanically free at or before the seal allows any pressure differential to equalize, then it's an avoidable design defect that fails to meet current minimum standards.
I think most people have the expectation of not getting a cap in the eyes when opening something.
If the safety feature is THAT simple and the lack of thereof literally costs people eyes, why wouldn't that be expectation?!
Because blinding people is bad and causes expensive lawsuits? How is this even a question.
And you also shouldn't put your dog in the microwave to dry it.
Are you saying that opening a food thermos is equivalent to cooking a dog in the microwave?
Everyone who knows what a microwave is knows microwaving a dog kills it.
How many people do you think realize that pressure can build up in a thermos if leftover food or drink ferments in it?
And even if you know the danger, how do you know if the thermals bottle you are holding is dangerous or not? Should people call the bomb squad every time they see a thermos with unknown contents inside?
> Why is there an expectation that it should be a required feature?
What point are you trying to make here ?!?!
Given that it should be there, it is quite clearly a product feature on Thermos jars.
So, of many examples that cross my mind.... let's say you were a long-term user of Thermos products. There's your "expectation".
I assume it probably features in the product literature that comes in the box too.
> Given that it should be there
I've never seen a thermos-style container with a pressure relief in my life. However, I'm European, it appears that in the US (a country where you have to write disclaimers on microwaves that you shouldn't dry hamsters in them) common sense has been going down the toilet.
Frankly, I'm all for a bit of darwinism here. It's bewildering that there are people who think it's a good idea to open a thermos that has been fermenting for days if not weeks without a lot of caution!
But all your last statement really does is make the problem someone else's, and more dangerously, because the design doesnt help even with caution.
If I have made an accidental kimchi bomb then I will want to defuse it safely before I dispose of it. If I put it in the trash and leave it for the refuse collector there is risk that it blows up in their face without any warning. That's a much worse outcome. The root issue here is that this thermos design doesnt have a way to safely defuse it.
I bet you actually have. Its those gaps in the threads for screwing on the lid. The pressure get escape through these gaps while the lid still stays on the bottle.
(That hamster-microwave thing is a disinfo campaign from manufacuturers to limit liability of corporations, BTW, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restau...)
Most lids you've ever used have pressure relief. It's not an extra part or valve or anything, it's just the simple geometry to ensure that the seal opens before the lid becomes mechanically free.
Thermos has only been producing flasks since 1904. There shouldn't be an expectation that they already have this on a checklist of things to watch out for in new designs. /s
Thought the same, but the recalled bottles were "food and drink" bottles, and they do usually have a pressure relief system of some kind.
Seems to be like they sold a bottle designed for a pressure relief cap with the wrong model cap, turning food storage containers into launchers.
One word for you .... context.
I said "given it should be there" because Thermos have just issued a recall notice where they openly admit liability and they openly state it should be there (see side by side photos in the recall).
I was never seeking to pass judgement on the factual element of whether "it should be there" in the pure definition of the term.
I was just saying "it should be there on THAT product because Thermos says so".
The whole point of Thermos is to keep things warm for a long time. That means pressure. It's a basic safety feature.
> The whole point of Thermos is to keep things warm for a long time. That means pressure.
That by far is not enough to forcefully yeet out the cap, probably not even if you take it to an Antarctic research base in -40 °C outdoor weather.
People forgetting about content that ferments however? Kaboom.
On a planet where fermentation exists, such as planet Earth, the only planet on which we, humans, reside and therefore where these containers are made and used, that means pressure.
Happy now?
[dead]
> Turns out people leave
I assume people forget they had food in them
Isn't the point of a thermos to put "perishable and fermenting foods" in it, like coffee or tea? Like this could totally have been me, like make a thermos-full of coffee one day, then forget about it only to come back to in some weeks just to open it and have one of my eyes blown off
You ferment coffee? Tea I can understand if you're making kombucha, but coffee?
not on purpose, I just forget stuff until they rot
Lol. If I forget food in a container and expect that it's rotted, I'm holding it well away from my face when I open it.
If you expect that it's rotted, you haven't really forgotten it. That's the whole point: they expected empty containers. Which could happen to you, being (presumably) a human.
I can tell from the weight and feel of the container if it's empty.
Thermos bottles are relatively heavier to their contents than flimsier bottles. That goes double if they're only half full. I have a couple of the recalled bottles, so I just weighed one - 14 ounces empty.
good luck of anything fermenting after dousing with boiling water..
Dousing with boiling water does not sterilize things.
Fermentation is still possible. Likely, even, if slower to start.
it's literally written on my thermos instructions to NOT put any carbonated drinks inside for this exact reason lol
I own a vacuum-insulated flask that is not Thermos®. I purchased it with a one cap and immediately purchased an accessory cap.
The original cap from the store has no pressure-release mechanism, other than the breaking of the seal when unscrewing it. The cap has an integrated carrying handle, which can also help when turning the cap one way or another.
The accessory cap has a "sippy cup" feature along with a pressure-release valve. It is very common to have a second valve with any vessel that pours or dispenses liquid, even a lemonade tank, because that's how pouring works. When you remove liquid from the container, it must be replaced by a commensurate volume of air.
Any (sealed) container designed to hold hot things should have a pressure release system.
It can be seals that buckle before the lid. It can be a tiny hole with a soft rubber stopper. It can be one of many things that cost a couple of cents extra and a bit more engineering and testing effort.
The cheapest disposable coffee cups I've used have a tiny hole for the express purpose of not pressurizing and spilling hot liquid everywhere.
There's a lot of conversation in the comments about "was there was an expectation that the pressure release valve would be there" There absolutely is a safety expectation that a sealed container of hot food is designed with a pressure release system.
BTW the fermented food thing is a misdirection. The pressure release system should have released pressure way before it even reached ballistic territory.
My steam cleaner recently was recalled and sent me a new cap with a built-in pressure-locking valve. People were opening it too early and getting burns. Heat and pressure can be very dangerous.
Wow I'm amazed that they shipped it without that. That's a standard safety feature as far as I know.
That sucks. I have both and the ones with the pressure relieve valve are a pain in the ass to clean. You have to pull out the rubber inner thingy, you can't get a towel inside the hole that thingy goes into, and in general the rubber thing gets lost easily. I wish Thermos would send me a few of those 8 million stoppers, I'll promise I won't be a dumbass with them :(
> I promise I won't be a dumbass with them
That's not very empathic of fellow people who might just have mistakenly forgotten food in the container.
It's not like they were intentionally using this for brewing some illegal substance or misusing it in a way specifically forbidden in the manual or obviously unsafe (e.g. removing a magnetron and all of its protections from a microwave to make pretty wood carvings).
> removing a magnetron and all of its protections from a microwave to make pretty wood carvings
In case anybody's wondering, as I did:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/60/41/116041120bb6e701bd47...
If you ask me, that's how the protomolecule got out
I wonder if they track how many people are sickened by the difficult-to-clean valve, because I bet it's a lot more than 3.
Luckily I got one of the valveless models, and you bet your ass I'm keeping it. Maybe I'll stick an "open away from face" label on top or something, but I'm not about to go increasing my risk of food contamination.
There's not really any way to make anything containing hot pressurized foods safe from people pointing it at their face. Either you get the lid in your face or you get steam in your face. The poor hygiene the vent creates is just an added bonus.
I'd rather they slap a warning on it, like everything else that you can't safely point at your face.
> I'll promise I won't be a dumbass with them :(
Can you also guarantee with absolute certainty that you'll never forget them anywhere another person who's unaware of the contents or the danger could find them?
If I buy a lawn mower, I don't expect anyone to guarantee with absolute certainty that there will never be a person who thinks 'hey maybe I can just stick my hand in there to unclog it' and gets their fingers chopped off. Probably a wrong analogy but I can't even be bothered to think it through, of course fermenting food causes things to explode, how is that even remotely the fault of the manufacturer? I loathe the times we live in where everything needs to be padded and cushioned because heavens forbid we start expecting people to think for a second. I mean, the valve requires a crevice where all sorts of things can grow (I've seen them, I've cleaned these things after they were left in a school bag throughout two weeks of school holidays with food in them), I'm not going to complain that it would somehow be Thermos' fault if one of my kids got sick off something getting stuck in there. At some point, there is such a thing as 'personal responsibility'.
I get your take that people should take the responsibility for things they are doing.
Without arguing your point there are a couple more things to consider from the perspective of the company and the society at large.
From the company perspective, if their product gets a bad reputation the sales will be worse. This could even extend beyond the one product. It doesn't matter if it is fair or nuanced at all. Even if everyone is a moron, investing in protecting the morons from themselves could be a good business decision.
From the society perspective, there is a positive-for-business intent in forcing a baseline for consumer safety and satisfaction. Threading that needle is of course hard but it makes it easier for a free market of consumer products to exist as a whole if the consumers can offload some of the investigation required before committing to something. The idea is that in a 100% buyer beware situation there is less buying overall and the market can't be big and as full of options because the cost/risk of buying isn't worth the end goal. You can make the counter argument that the trust should be part of the brand value but it might enable new companies and new products more effectively (making more good options in a free market) to reduce the consumer risk of purchasing their products.
Additionally, if everyone is doing the same prerequisite research (is this safe before I buy), it makes sense to consolidate this step either through curation/certification groups (the people who care fund it themselves - makes sense for specific preference choices [eg "plant based", "cruelty free"] or niches [eg "gluten free", "non gmo"]) or regulation (everyone funds it collectively - makes sense for broad application like "will I get food poisoning" and "am I risking being maimed").
Beyond personal purchases there's also society wide implications worth preventing for things like if a million cars exploded or if 10% of profession X and profession Y ended up losing fingers.
Like I said, not arguing with you about if people are dumb and if companies should be required to pay to deal with that, just pointing out there are other reasons a system might be in place beyond just a patronizing nanny state situation.
Forget about other people. Let anyone who hasn't ever let food expire under his own watch open the first thermos.
>Can you also guarantee with absolute certainty that you'll never forget them anywhere another person who's unaware of the contents or the danger could find them?
Why does he need to do that?
We're talking about a product that lightly injured ~20 people for ~8mil units sold and seriously injured ~3.
Should be be keeping his champagne in a protective enclosure?
If you have younger kids, or software engineers, around, you definitely should keep your champagne in a protective enclosure.
I've seen Champagne disappear faster off the shelf more so around MBA's who are celebrating accomplishments having dubious value, compared to engineers who have actually achieved remarkable milestones ;)
Fair point :)
There is a well known solution. Look at most PET bottles. The thread (mostly on the cap) is not continuous. That's for the pressure to relieve before the cap is off, and that could happen from a coke bottle or so to you.
You have to activate it manually?
No, it's activated by pressure
I too from the headline assumed it was some sort of chemical contamination during manufacturing.
But then I read the words "The malfunction is due to multiple models of containers missing a pressure relief function in the center of the stopper."
How non-existent does your quality assurance have to be in order to miss such a critical, obvious and easy to identify flaw ?
Looking at the published photographs, you don't even need training to identify that manufacturing defect. A five year old could spot the difference between "lid has a hole" and "lid does not have a hole".
I've never seen a thermos bottle with a relief valve. Not sure if all manufacturers in Europe have nonexistent QA or if it's just not a thing that's commonly needed since you can't heat the contents up in there anyway (it's not like an insulated water boiler, which does have a release valve). Never considered that someone might leave food in there long enough to build up explosive pressure. Feels a bit like saying a missing cat detector function in microwave ovens points at them having no quality control
I bet you’ve been using these your whole life without knowing it: in non-USA thermoses, the lid releases pressure before becoming mechanically free. You’d hear a “pop” and then the lid has to be twisted slightly further before it can be removed.
Not all safety features have to be obvious/obtrusive.
I see no hole in the metal anywhere on the inside. The only non-metal part that touches the inside is a rubber(?) gasket/ring thingy that sits above the thread and is squeezed by the lid, which I take out to clean and there's only metal under there as well. How would this work? Did I get the exceptional model that doesn't have one and just didn't look at other models closely enough?
Huh. I’d imagined the threading in the cap could be made this way
I would assume that it was some cost optimization that led to the removal of the pressure relief.
OTOH I would assume that they didn't add the pressure relief until after finding out that people were getting hurt.
Seems logical to then be recalling any that are out there without the safety feature.
Happened to me once. I was emptying one of my child’s thermoses in the bathroom when it suddenly "exploded" and sprayed the contents all over the bathroom walls. Quite a remarkable day :)
I didn't consider it a defect, though. I can hardly imagine cheap products adopting this solution.
I would have thought they could design the screwtop so that it would relase pressure before fully disengaging the lid from the flask.
That is what I was wondering. I would have thought it would need to be opened at eye level for the contents to hit the eye before being depressurised.
If it's a forceful opening and you're not holding the top tightly, then I imagine the top could launch upwards. I know from experience this can also happen if you put just a bit of boiling water in and seal it. The air expands under heat and will push the top out whilst you're unscrewing. A version of this top comes with a metal spoon & raised holder built in, providing some edges to hit you with and an extra projectile.
Nah I think most people would open it at waist level standing with the lid facing up (towards you face as you are looking down), and twisting to open.
I can totally see how that would fly straight up at your face.
This suggests a "knife skills" automatic habit to cultivate:† Whenever opening anything, point it away from your face, or at least move your face out of the line of fire. (Champagne, soda bottles, whatever.)
† "Knife skills" automatic habits = things such as, • always cut away from yourself; • whenever holding something down with the non-knife hand to be cut, curl that hand's fingers under, so that the non-knife hand's knuckles serve as a guard for that hand's finger tips.
I would say this is a big factor for Thermos.
with Champagne the injuries are probably more numerous, but this risk is part of the expected behavior.
Had this happen to me once, though totally my own fault. Was brewing kombucha, and left it out in the bottles a little too long before burping.
Me standing there, kombucha and peach slices pulverized against the cap, kombucha leaving a large mark on the ceiling it all happened so fast, glad I was wearing my glasses.
No injuries except my pride, but it did take some hours to clean up.
I wouldn't do it in a thermos, but I guess those are mostly accidents?
It was bramble beer for me. Put a load of lovely ripe brambles in a batch of homebrew beer, one of the little pithy bits on the inside wedged up against the bottom of the airlock, and overnight the pressure built up enough to pop the cork out and spray the ceiling with brambly splats and beer.
Tasted okay though.
My mate brewed his bramble beer by putting his brambles through a juicer and only adding the juice and pulp, because he's cleverer than me and has a certain amount of foresight.
This happened at the hospital I currently work at a couple years ago. A patient was brought some chicken noodle soup hot in the thermos but didn't open it. A few days later I was working night shift on that floor when we all heard a sound resembling a cross between a BOOM and a BANG (something you don't expect at 2AM). There was his thermos at the bedside table with no lid, still sitting upright. Scattered around (both floor and ceiling) was some fermented soup smelling of fermenting vomitus. And a lid-sized-and-shaped hole in the ceiling.
Walmart had a similar recall last year for their Ozark Trail bottles. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2025/Walmart-Recalls-Ozark-Trai...
This is wild.. It looks like they changed their lid to be a bit cheaper ?
Looking at the version that's not recalled, I would guess it costs more to make.
The one without the relieve valve is nicer to use because it's (much) easier to clean. Source: I've cleaned these things pretty much every weekday for the last 2 or 3 years.
The one that's not recalled has a pressure release button
Thanks god they don't do this with Champagne!
Couldn't this affect other brands as well? I would not assume many have thought of this
I hate life a little bit more every time I stumble upon stories like this. Anything and everything can happen to you, suddenly, without warning, without planning, not necessarily because of any obvious fault of your own (from your perspective, at least). "Oh, you thought you already had enough problems and worries as it is? Congratulations, now you are blind in one eye, forever, because you wanted to keep your coffee warmer for a little longer."
[dead]
At this point it’s basically a risk to buy anything new from a large company who’s products are most likely worse than ever in terms of cost-cutting materials, build quality, and design.
So who decided to cut costs by "simplifying" the lid design? A case of Chesterton's fence perhaps?
My partner has one of these so just checked it. It does have the pressure relief feature, but it turns out it's also missing all the seals anyway so never would have been a problem!
Imagine the last thing you ever see is a Thermos exploding in your face… then you still have to live the rest of your life.