This one issue, privacy, has stopped me from buying a new car. It is stopping me from even buying a used one since it is hard to figure out how far back you need to go to be rid of these things. Screaming at the wind though isn't helping. We need actual real options. I will buy something that it privacy aware. This is YC. Someone, build the startup that sells that and you have my money.
Also even with no modem, if you use CarPlay on your phone _via Bluetooth_ then the car will just use your phone's internet connection, so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.
Aside from that the car works great, everything is 100% functional. I suppose I don't get OTA updates, which I'm fine with.
Wow, that is evil that they steal your data to send telemetry back via carplay. I always assumed that was possible so I have never actually hooked my phone up to a car but it really saddens me that it actually happens. There is 0 requirement for my phone to pass along raw internet access to the car in my opinion.
I have a Skoda and the GPS module was broken and that messed up a lot of the systems in the car, I couldn't use the adaptive cruise control, no traffic signs recognition and no SOS module. And apparently CarPlay sometimes uses the car's GPS module, so navigation was also a pain. I'd have to start the navigation from outside the car, otherwise it wouldn't use the phone's GPS.
Maybe if you live in an area with a warm and dry climate. Otherwise you're out of luck half the year unless you want to risk it daily on icy or wet roads.
Still driving my 2014 Golf mk7. No ads, physical buttons, adaptive cruise, frontal collision avoidance, great reliability. Not planning an upgrade any time soon.
2014 BMW 5 series F11, still nothing just good dumb assistants (like laser HUD so I never ever get speeding tickets) and bad dumb ones which can be turned off (keeping lane doesn't work at all in any construction zone and interfering with driving is a big nono).
The way they are set up together makes driving much more pleasant (heck its BMW so perfect balance and great handling at curves) and much less tiring for long haul (do from time to time 1500km 16h single day push). Was worried about automatic transmission but in their implementation its a joy and a beast in Sports mode, again less mental burden.
I really, really don't want anything more in the car, until we have 100% FSD where I can sleep or watch movies. There is no space between those, not for me.
What Edison motors is trying to do with their conversion kits is the solution for us privacy-aware folks, I think. If they, or someone, manage to bring hybrid/electric conversion kits to the market, we'll have an option that's slightly better than hoping parts stay available for older cars.
So far I have seen slate position itself as stripped down, but the thing I haven't seen is that they will be privacy aware. These are two totally different things. I want a simple but functional vehicle which does mean a comfortable vehicle that has reasonable features, but the honest truth is most features I don't want are purely because I want to be privacy aware. I don't want built in maps because I know they will connect and sell my location. I don't want and 'on-star' like feature because I know (for a fact with on-star) they will sell my data to insurance companies (actual harm to me will happen in other words). I don't want anything connectable to an app because I know that means their servers are constantly in control of my vehicle. I have 0 trust so I want a vehicle with one critical feature: no sim. If you can build a car without a sim I will buy it. If it has a sim I will avoid it until I have no actual other choice.
I can't speak for other makes/models/years with certainty, but my 2024 Ford Maverick has a "Telemetry Control Unit" that is easily accessible through a hatch by the front passenger seat. Unplugging it disables all communication with Ford servers and I can confirm the app no longer works.
The infotainment center also has no built-in maps as it relies on Android Auto/Apple CarPlay for everything except climate control and the AM/FM radio.
Again, not having a feature doesn't mean they don't send telemetry back. They can be stripped down AND steal my privacy. In fact, I expect them to considering the backers.
cope cages look like hardware fence (like chicken wire but welded, pig fence, sheep fence, goat fence are closer.)
However, the US already put fencing around fighting vehicles, specifically the Bradley, where the fence was essentially "chain link fencing".
I'm not entirely sure i buy that the cope cage stops drones; but the chain link fence absolutely stops RPGs from exploding by severing the wire that runs on the outside from the tip to the explosive.
Original cope cages were a very misguided attempt to copy the functionality of the actual working fence-like defensive measures. Except in those cases they did next to nothing, which is why they were dubbed cope cages.
AFAICT the concept was improved since then but I haven't been following the tech tree of cobbled-together defensive measures used in that war in a good while.
Dunno man. I am inclined to do it and maybe even able to, but I will admit that there is some hesitation in messing too hard with internals of a rather expensive toy. Part of me is really hoping custom EV kits come here faster so that I can finally have proper EV vette in 90s body.
I think it will have to be an underground scene with people who know how to "dumb down" cars doing it for some amount of money. Doesn't have to be illegal, but we keep somehow all voting for the biggest idiots the world has ever seen, so modifying your car within safe limits might be illegal soon.
Surprised to see no mention of Chinese cars, which are currently taking over the rest of the globe (EVs, REVs, hybrids). For half the price of a US or European car, you get a car with a lot more bells and whistles, which of course, include multiple large screens inside, software that controls everything (seat positions, lights, etc), LED matrix lighting on the front, and an app to control the car remotely.
Not to mention the video advertisements sometimes on top (outside), in the rear window or on small screens facing the passengers (havent spotted a camera in those, but that seems just a matter of time). Most drivers also have dashcams.
What are the options for cars that don't track you? For example, new cars that don't include tracking, cars old enough to not have it, cars that can be modified (e.g., parts disconnected, software updated) to stop it, etc.
This Mozilla report is low quality and treats legal boilerplate as proof of them spying. It says a car is snooping on you via its microphone even if that microphone is purely used for support Bluetooth calls.
It's easy for me to say because I don't mind old cars, but you really don't have to go that old to find something without ad-tech or tracking. You can have a completely acceptable experience in say a 2015 Toyota Camry or Crown or whatever equivalent you get in your country, with lane assist and excellent safety, but no phoning home.
The answer really depends on how much you don't want to be tracked, is it a big concern worth a lot of effort and compromise, or do you just kinda wish it wasn't happening?
If the former, there are plenty of vehicles to choose from the relatively recent past. I haven't looked into it but I imagine a lot of cars could have their phoning home disabled too, and it'd be surprising if all of these cars will be paying for an internet connection/SIM for decades to come so eventually the modern ones will fall off the net anyway.
A 90s Camry, Corolla, or Civic seems to have become the peak minimalist car. Shame we will never likely see an EV equivalent focused on utility and cost efficiency without all the bloat. I don’t think there is a good option sadly, any ICE car will eventually just become unmaintainable, and I can’t see a path to EVs that are just cars and don’t come with all this tracking.. hope to be proved wrong..
I'm pretty curious what Slate's telematics/privacy story will be like. No way to tell until they start shipping, I guess. It's pretty cheap to add a cell modem, so I don't think it's safe to assume that a "bare bones" car necessarily won't have spyware.
I haven't heard about slate till just now, but based on their specs, it doesn't seem like they are capable of collecting or selling data. The dashboard is your personal tablet or phone. It literally seems to just be a battery, motor, chassis, and trunk, with climate control and required safety features
Unlike the Americans, we have the GDPR. No UK/EU car is tracking you or gathering personal data from you without opt-in consent, which you can choose not to give.
(And before somebody starts ranting, the eCall 112 system doesn't track you willy nilly)
replacing the antenna with a 50-ohm resistor works very well. The car thinks it is out of cell reception and continues to work. No manufacturer would dare have their cars stop working merely due to it being in Montana (indistinguishable from having no cell antenna/reception).
The transition started with drive-by-wire and the CAN bus, but the moment they added cellular modems, the dashboard became a platform. Automakers are currently running the exact same programmatic targeting logic as web publishers and in-store retail networks. The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
Tried to look at the actual ad-tech and architecture driving this rather than just doing another "touchscreens are bad" rant.
> The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
This obviously needs fixing !
The only way to do it is to force you to click "Refuse" or "Agree" each and every time you start the car and to not let you drive until you click an option.
That sounds like a lot of liability. For one thing, it almost certainly means that the vehicle is being sold without the manufacturers warranty. It also might mean that the manufacturern won't even support the vehicle for service. And finally, by disabling OTA updates there could be safety implications.
I know you can yank the modem out of a SuperDuty. Say what you will about them, they're work-oriented despite the luxury packages available and don't force you into being treated like the product -- Ford will track your location if you don't pull the modem, but at least it isn't necessary for the ICU and it doesn't nag you about the anything being disconnected. Fuel prices and gas economy are another issue...
(You may be able to do this with other Ford models)
Motorcycles are the last refuge of vehicle privacy. No (japanese) sportbike manufacturer would dare track customer activity. They really do not want to know how thier customers use thier products.
Its small, but there remains the hope that progressive enshittification of cars might convince a few people not to own one. Cities with useful public transport infrastructure already see a trend of young people not owning a car, which is good.
My city recently closed a load of employee parking, extended the paid parking zone, and simultaneously reduced the time covered by a bus ticket by 25% and displays adverts on the screens inside buses.
An interesting late stage capitalism ad hack I’ve seen in cars : OTA digital radio transmits track metadata like artist, title, and album artwork. I’ve seen some stations transmit tiny square ads in place of album artwork, even while the song is playing.
a fully disconnected car that does not report back to its mother ship. does. not. exist. only other option is to buy a car old enough that does not have it. also if you didn't bring this up most north americans would be blissfully unaware, as long as the car has a good cup holder.
This can be a completely independent unit. In fact, with all the safety-related certifications I bet that's even the easiest and cheapest way to do it!
This one issue, privacy, has stopped me from buying a new car. It is stopping me from even buying a used one since it is hard to figure out how far back you need to go to be rid of these things. Screaming at the wind though isn't helping. We need actual real options. I will buy something that it privacy aware. This is YC. Someone, build the startup that sells that and you have my money.
> This is YC
The home of the advertising and data broker industry.
I bought a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid and
1) physically removed the modem (the "DCM") and
2) disconnected the GPS antenna from the head unit
Took a little research but was still an approachable project
What still functions and what broke?
When I removed the DCM the in-car microphone stopped working, but I bought one of these to get it working again: https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77.
Also even with no modem, if you use CarPlay on your phone _via Bluetooth_ then the car will just use your phone's internet connection, so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.
Aside from that the car works great, everything is 100% functional. I suppose I don't get OTA updates, which I'm fine with.
Wow, that is evil that they steal your data to send telemetry back via carplay. I always assumed that was possible so I have never actually hooked my phone up to a car but it really saddens me that it actually happens. There is 0 requirement for my phone to pass along raw internet access to the car in my opinion.
I have a Skoda and the GPS module was broken and that messed up a lot of the systems in the car, I couldn't use the adaptive cruise control, no traffic signs recognition and no SOS module. And apparently CarPlay sometimes uses the car's GPS module, so navigation was also a pain. I'd have to start the navigation from outside the car, otherwise it wouldn't use the phone's GPS.
Did the car have a built-in navigation feature? I presume after you removed the GPS connection it broke, and you instead use CarPlay for navigation?
> so I only use CarPlay via a wired USB connection.
Wouldn't that also share your phones internet connection with the car?
Cool so my USB wireless car play dongle still has some life left in it. Good to know.
Given that some countries already move on legislation for government remote control of cars, I wonder how long this method will be actually legal.
Motorbikes are available without any of this tech, if you want something made this year without the need to remove any components.
Sure, there's an elevated risk of death, but you've got to balance that against the fact bike go vroom vroom.
I swear there is a psyop to get me to buy a very fast motorcycle, like, me specifically.
I do want one, and I'm not going to get one! I have self control. Don't look at my Ebay notifications.
Maybe if you live in an area with a warm and dry climate. Otherwise you're out of luck half the year unless you want to risk it daily on icy or wet roads.
Still driving my 2014 Golf mk7. No ads, physical buttons, adaptive cruise, frontal collision avoidance, great reliability. Not planning an upgrade any time soon.
2014 BMW 5 series F11, still nothing just good dumb assistants (like laser HUD so I never ever get speeding tickets) and bad dumb ones which can be turned off (keeping lane doesn't work at all in any construction zone and interfering with driving is a big nono).
The way they are set up together makes driving much more pleasant (heck its BMW so perfect balance and great handling at curves) and much less tiring for long haul (do from time to time 1500km 16h single day push). Was worried about automatic transmission but in their implementation its a joy and a beast in Sports mode, again less mental burden.
I really, really don't want anything more in the car, until we have 100% FSD where I can sleep or watch movies. There is no space between those, not for me.
What Edison motors is trying to do with their conversion kits is the solution for us privacy-aware folks, I think. If they, or someone, manage to bring hybrid/electric conversion kits to the market, we'll have an option that's slightly better than hoping parts stay available for older cars.
Slate maybe?
So far I have seen slate position itself as stripped down, but the thing I haven't seen is that they will be privacy aware. These are two totally different things. I want a simple but functional vehicle which does mean a comfortable vehicle that has reasonable features, but the honest truth is most features I don't want are purely because I want to be privacy aware. I don't want built in maps because I know they will connect and sell my location. I don't want and 'on-star' like feature because I know (for a fact with on-star) they will sell my data to insurance companies (actual harm to me will happen in other words). I don't want anything connectable to an app because I know that means their servers are constantly in control of my vehicle. I have 0 trust so I want a vehicle with one critical feature: no sim. If you can build a car without a sim I will buy it. If it has a sim I will avoid it until I have no actual other choice.
I can't speak for other makes/models/years with certainty, but my 2024 Ford Maverick has a "Telemetry Control Unit" that is easily accessible through a hatch by the front passenger seat. Unplugging it disables all communication with Ford servers and I can confirm the app no longer works.
The infotainment center also has no built-in maps as it relies on Android Auto/Apple CarPlay for everything except climate control and the AM/FM radio.
What you described sounds to me like slate. It doesn't have maps or a sim. It doesn't even have a digital dashboard at all[0].
I barely looked it up so I'm no expert, but that's what I'm interpreting from their site.
[0] https://www.slate.auto/en/faq
Again, not having a feature doesn't mean they don't send telemetry back. They can be stripped down AND steal my privacy. In fact, I expect them to considering the backers.
Solution: Get a modern car but simply build a Faraday cage around it, like those anti-drone "cope cages" you see on Russian tanks.
I believe faraday cages need to be grounded. I'm not sure what the resistivity of rolling rubber tires are.
cope cages look like hardware fence (like chicken wire but welded, pig fence, sheep fence, goat fence are closer.)
However, the US already put fencing around fighting vehicles, specifically the Bradley, where the fence was essentially "chain link fencing".
I'm not entirely sure i buy that the cope cage stops drones; but the chain link fence absolutely stops RPGs from exploding by severing the wire that runs on the outside from the tip to the explosive.
Original cope cages were a very misguided attempt to copy the functionality of the actual working fence-like defensive measures. Except in those cases they did next to nothing, which is why they were dubbed cope cages.
AFAICT the concept was improved since then but I haven't been following the tech tree of cobbled-together defensive measures used in that war in a good while.
It made me laugh that a site "nobodyaskedforthis.lol" specifically about an aversion to modern tech (tracking, advertising) was written by an LLM
Where does it say it was written by an LLM?
This felt like human writing to me. I could be wrong, of course.
The newest car I own is 14 years old, and the next one I buy will have a carburetor.
And you better believe I will ride around on a fucking HORSE before I put up with ads on my dashboard. Screw that noise.
E-Bike, motorcycle, older cars, and once all of those aren't an option anymore, we're going to start stripping cars down.
Dunno man. I am inclined to do it and maybe even able to, but I will admit that there is some hesitation in messing too hard with internals of a rather expensive toy. Part of me is really hoping custom EV kits come here faster so that I can finally have proper EV vette in 90s body.
I think it will have to be an underground scene with people who know how to "dumb down" cars doing it for some amount of money. Doesn't have to be illegal, but we keep somehow all voting for the biggest idiots the world has ever seen, so modifying your car within safe limits might be illegal soon.
Surprised to see no mention of Chinese cars, which are currently taking over the rest of the globe (EVs, REVs, hybrids). For half the price of a US or European car, you get a car with a lot more bells and whistles, which of course, include multiple large screens inside, software that controls everything (seat positions, lights, etc), LED matrix lighting on the front, and an app to control the car remotely.
Not to mention the video advertisements sometimes on top (outside), in the rear window or on small screens facing the passengers (havent spotted a camera in those, but that seems just a matter of time). Most drivers also have dashcams.
What are the options for cars that don't track you? For example, new cars that don't include tracking, cars old enough to not have it, cars that can be modified (e.g., parts disconnected, software updated) to stop it, etc.
Great question. It feels like there's no real options here except buying older cars. Mozilla did a review and every brand they looked at flunked
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...
The "least creepy" were Renault and Dacia and the "most creepy" were Nissan and Buick.
Apparently there's tools like Privacy4Cars that could help you delete your car. Based on their website, it seems their primary customer is enterprise
https://privacy4cars.com/
This Mozilla report is low quality and treats legal boilerplate as proof of them spying. It says a car is snooping on you via its microphone even if that microphone is purely used for support Bluetooth calls.
Then as a minimum the report should act to encourage car manufacturers to use less boilerplate and be more specific in their terms.
This “we reserve the right to do everything” bullshit has got to go.
Why would they give up legal liability if they didn't have to?
For my business and that of everyone else who stops forking over their money in these one-sided, despicable agreements.
It's easy for me to say because I don't mind old cars, but you really don't have to go that old to find something without ad-tech or tracking. You can have a completely acceptable experience in say a 2015 Toyota Camry or Crown or whatever equivalent you get in your country, with lane assist and excellent safety, but no phoning home.
The answer really depends on how much you don't want to be tracked, is it a big concern worth a lot of effort and compromise, or do you just kinda wish it wasn't happening?
If the former, there are plenty of vehicles to choose from the relatively recent past. I haven't looked into it but I imagine a lot of cars could have their phoning home disabled too, and it'd be surprising if all of these cars will be paying for an internet connection/SIM for decades to come so eventually the modern ones will fall off the net anyway.
A 90s Camry, Corolla, or Civic seems to have become the peak minimalist car. Shame we will never likely see an EV equivalent focused on utility and cost efficiency without all the bloat. I don’t think there is a good option sadly, any ICE car will eventually just become unmaintainable, and I can’t see a path to EVs that are just cars and don’t come with all this tracking.. hope to be proved wrong..
https://slate.auto
I'm pretty curious what Slate's telematics/privacy story will be like. No way to tell until they start shipping, I guess. It's pretty cheap to add a cell modem, so I don't think it's safe to assume that a "bare bones" car necessarily won't have spyware.
I haven't heard about slate till just now, but based on their specs, it doesn't seem like they are capable of collecting or selling data. The dashboard is your personal tablet or phone. It literally seems to just be a battery, motor, chassis, and trunk, with climate control and required safety features
Isn't it Bezos? In which case I have little faith it won't be like the rest.
In the UK, any car that used a 3G modem is fine now: we have no 3G networks here any more.
Ummmm
Unlike the Americans, we have the GDPR. No UK/EU car is tracking you or gathering personal data from you without opt-in consent, which you can choose not to give.
(And before somebody starts ranting, the eCall 112 system doesn't track you willy nilly)
The one with a fuse on the modem circuit, no?
I’m hoping the new Slate electric cars don’t have this.
replacing the antenna with a 50-ohm resistor works very well. The car thinks it is out of cell reception and continues to work. No manufacturer would dare have their cars stop working merely due to it being in Montana (indistinguishable from having no cell antenna/reception).
The transition started with drive-by-wire and the CAN bus, but the moment they added cellular modems, the dashboard became a platform. Automakers are currently running the exact same programmatic targeting logic as web publishers and in-store retail networks. The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
Tried to look at the actual ad-tech and architecture driving this rather than just doing another "touchscreens are bad" rant.
> The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.
This obviously needs fixing !
The only way to do it is to force you to click "Refuse" or "Agree" each and every time you start the car and to not let you drive until you click an option.
This will be a massive win for consumers.
Cybercab has electric brakes.
It would be a great idea for a website to sell the latest versions of cars, used or new, that didn’t feature enshitification tech.
Maybe it’s not a huge market but I bet there is some market still for a quality experience.
That sounds like a lot of liability. For one thing, it almost certainly means that the vehicle is being sold without the manufacturers warranty. It also might mean that the manufacturern won't even support the vehicle for service. And finally, by disabling OTA updates there could be safety implications.
Who said anything about disabling or modifying anything?
You just look for older car models that don’t snoop.
Cars made before about 2017 for example.
Awful writing. Cant stand that LLM generated drivel. Ruins it for me.
On the topic however I do wish there was a fully disconnected modern car. Maybe a Corolla with base trim has no starlink?
I know you can yank the modem out of a SuperDuty. Say what you will about them, they're work-oriented despite the luxury packages available and don't force you into being treated like the product -- Ford will track your location if you don't pull the modem, but at least it isn't necessary for the ICU and it doesn't nag you about the anything being disconnected. Fuel prices and gas economy are another issue...
(You may be able to do this with other Ford models)
Sorry, I meant ECU not ICU.
Motorcycles are the last refuge of vehicle privacy. No (japanese) sportbike manufacturer would dare track customer activity. They really do not want to know how thier customers use thier products.
Plausible deniability
$60k min, 80+month loans, Insurance++, and you are still the product. So much for the freedom of the open road.
I do love my electric cargo bike…
At least Tesla is doing something right with direct sales and no suffering through a dealership just adding on cost.
Its small, but there remains the hope that progressive enshittification of cars might convince a few people not to own one. Cities with useful public transport infrastructure already see a trend of young people not owning a car, which is good.
My city recently closed a load of employee parking, extended the paid parking zone, and simultaneously reduced the time covered by a bus ticket by 25% and displays adverts on the screens inside buses.
I guess just stick to cars from mid 2000's and older.
There is another issue with newer cars too, They have extremely loose piston rings, after X thousand miles they burn as much oil as a 2 stroke.
https://youtu.be/Ft12aZffCEg?si=uYlRABoqweTOKaoi
An interesting late stage capitalism ad hack I’ve seen in cars : OTA digital radio transmits track metadata like artist, title, and album artwork. I’ve seen some stations transmit tiny square ads in place of album artwork, even while the song is playing.
a fully disconnected car that does not report back to its mother ship. does. not. exist. only other option is to buy a car old enough that does not have it. also if you didn't bring this up most north americans would be blissfully unaware, as long as the car has a good cup holder.
> as long as the car has a good cup holder.
The lack of a cup holder is the only thing I would change about my '98 Toyota MR2
'course it does .. any custom build shop will leave such things out on request, a great many don't even add in remote networking to begin with.
eg: https://www.okaaustralia.com/
that's illegal in the EU, the car is mandated to be able to call 112 automatically, therefore it must have a cellphone in it
This can be a completely independent unit. In fact, with all the safety-related certifications I bet that's even the easiest and cheapest way to do it!
This is the one feature I'd actually like to have. It's a shame the adnet has to abuse everything.
I swear I didn't know the antennae of the tracker ~~safety~~ device was wrapped in aluminum all this time!
Custom builds are exempt from this requirement.