The point about leadership stands. One thing about leadership that, you must be someone worth following.
I went to a scouting event about a year ago and honestly none of the leadership was inspiring in any way. Timid communication, lack of eye contact, pudgy physique, unkempt appearance.
Look I'm not trying to bash anyone, but am I supposed to tell my kid to look up to these folks? There's no way.
To everyone commenting on the sexual abuse problem scouts had; yes that happened and it was terrible. But they have instituted the standard child protection mechanisms and follow them. Two adults with scouts at all times etc. our kids (boys and girls) are in scouts and they enjoy it. The summer camp program is really incredible, the reservation our counsel maintains is exquisite. The “scout led” part is really great too imo. The self confidence and independence they gain from going to camp for two weeks in the summer is really something. There’s a noticeable change in kids after the first time. This isn’t only scouts, but any stay away camp I imagine.
The article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which also explains the precipitous 2020 collapse in membership in the chart that is prominently shown up top. Turns out parents aren't too keen on sending their kids into camps that have reported 92,000 cases of sexual abuse (and how many cases were not?).
i disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.
> Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects.
I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me.
I was a Scout in four different places growing up. My family moved a lot. My experience (in the 1980s) is that program depended a lot on the priorities of local organizers. Anecdotally, I observed that in communities where Scouting was seen as important—measured by the percentage of children who participated-it was a positive experience.
My time as a Boy Scout in Maine was life changing. It was not just about activities and skills (although there were many), it’s clear that the leaders of that Troop saw Scouting as a kind of secular education in ethics and community. They made the various Scouting accomplishments (ranks, merit badges) feel like milestones along a path of self improvement. It felt important.
When my family left Maine, the local Troop was weird (the Hitler Youth comment by the earlier poster tracks) and activities consisted of playing checkers in a church basement. In particular, peer bullying of younger/new kids was routine. I lost interest at that point and stopped going.
It’s been difficult to follow news of Scouting’s decline for me, because I have seen how positive it CAN be. But perhaps local Troops like this are rare.
Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).
The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS.
I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned.
Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.)
There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
The AI writing patterns here are obnoxious on both a sentence by sentence level and at the level of overall meaning and content. Because a machine wrote this, lacks human intelligence, so is not worth reading.
I read the text myself and checked it with pangram, it's 95% plus human written (people hate hundred percent so the discount). So I'm asking myself if it is ragebait or Idiocracy. I know that's harsh to say, but throwing in written by AI is harsh as well. (Analysis: Pangram believes that this document is fully human-written https://www.pangram.com/history/c59610e0-aba7-469c-b762-21f7...)
> The cost falls on both ends of Scouts BSA. That program is optimal for middle schoolers, but middle schoolers are not trusted to own it. They are managed by older youth instead. High schoolers fare no better. Instead of receiving programming built around autonomy, peer challenge, advanced outdoor adventure, and responsibility suited to their age, the vast majority are trapped in a middle-school program where their main role is supervising the younger Scouts. BSA romanticizes this as mentoring. Teenagers see it as babysitting. They know the difference, and they leave.
A kind of interesting statement. I dont know if i agree. I think it is a positive thing to have children from different age groups learn from each other. Obviously it shouldn't devolve into just babysitting, but the idea of mixed ages learning together doesn't seem inherently bad.
Former Eagle Scout here -- I agree a bit with this analysis. The absolute best parts of it for me were the high adventure camps, backpacking, etc. The absolute worst where the Monday meetings. Depending on the vibe of the troop your activities bias one way or the other.
My Troop spent a lot of the non-adventure time motivating us to learn skills that we would need on adventures. Knot tying, first aid, camp cooking, paddling technique, carpentry, etc. Many of the leaders were current or former Navy personnel (this was in a town with a maritime school), so they often told engaging stories about how they needed these skills. There were also low-commitment activities in town that children enjoyed: campfires with smores, tours of historical sites (old forts), bike rides, “hikes” around town, art projects, fund drives, etc.
I remember, my older brother wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and I was of the age to initially join. Some respected counter culture person, I don't think I was him, but someone like George Carlin, started talking about the boy scouts being where men scouted boys. That was it, the boy scouts were instantly "uncool".
Yes, it is unfortunately. It is a great shame, because I believe scouting can be a positive experience when there are proper safeguards. They have paid out a lot of compensation recently.
In the USA, the Mormon church disaffiliated their programme from them a few years ago and that was a big blow to them too since a lot of LDS kids were members.
As scoutmaster the article feels wrong. There are things that I'm sure are wrong but I don't know what they are. the article doesn't seem right either though.
The point about leadership stands. One thing about leadership that, you must be someone worth following.
I went to a scouting event about a year ago and honestly none of the leadership was inspiring in any way. Timid communication, lack of eye contact, pudgy physique, unkempt appearance.
Look I'm not trying to bash anyone, but am I supposed to tell my kid to look up to these folks? There's no way.
To everyone commenting on the sexual abuse problem scouts had; yes that happened and it was terrible. But they have instituted the standard child protection mechanisms and follow them. Two adults with scouts at all times etc. our kids (boys and girls) are in scouts and they enjoy it. The summer camp program is really incredible, the reservation our counsel maintains is exquisite. The “scout led” part is really great too imo. The self confidence and independence they gain from going to camp for two weeks in the summer is really something. There’s a noticeable change in kids after the first time. This isn’t only scouts, but any stay away camp I imagine.
The article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which also explains the precipitous 2020 collapse in membership in the chart that is prominently shown up top. Turns out parents aren't too keen on sending their kids into camps that have reported 92,000 cases of sexual abuse (and how many cases were not?).
Are you sure that's the only cause? I can think of some other events in 2020 that might have led to a lot of youth dropping out of in-person programs.
i disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.
> Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects.
I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me.
I was sad because the product is truly awesome.
Same experience except it reminded my dad too much of his time in the Soviet Young Pioneers.
I was a Scout in four different places growing up. My family moved a lot. My experience (in the 1980s) is that program depended a lot on the priorities of local organizers. Anecdotally, I observed that in communities where Scouting was seen as important—measured by the percentage of children who participated-it was a positive experience.
My time as a Boy Scout in Maine was life changing. It was not just about activities and skills (although there were many), it’s clear that the leaders of that Troop saw Scouting as a kind of secular education in ethics and community. They made the various Scouting accomplishments (ranks, merit badges) feel like milestones along a path of self improvement. It felt important.
When my family left Maine, the local Troop was weird (the Hitler Youth comment by the earlier poster tracks) and activities consisted of playing checkers in a church basement. In particular, peer bullying of younger/new kids was routine. I lost interest at that point and stopped going.
It’s been difficult to follow news of Scouting’s decline for me, because I have seen how positive it CAN be. But perhaps local Troops like this are rare.
Actually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).
I'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?
The LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
A lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS.
I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned.
Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
That is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.)
There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
Can't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?
The AI writing patterns here are obnoxious on both a sentence by sentence level and at the level of overall meaning and content. Because a machine wrote this, lacks human intelligence, so is not worth reading.
I read the text myself and checked it with pangram, it's 95% plus human written (people hate hundred percent so the discount). So I'm asking myself if it is ragebait or Idiocracy. I know that's harsh to say, but throwing in written by AI is harsh as well. (Analysis: Pangram believes that this document is fully human-written https://www.pangram.com/history/c59610e0-aba7-469c-b762-21f7...)
> The cost falls on both ends of Scouts BSA. That program is optimal for middle schoolers, but middle schoolers are not trusted to own it. They are managed by older youth instead. High schoolers fare no better. Instead of receiving programming built around autonomy, peer challenge, advanced outdoor adventure, and responsibility suited to their age, the vast majority are trapped in a middle-school program where their main role is supervising the younger Scouts. BSA romanticizes this as mentoring. Teenagers see it as babysitting. They know the difference, and they leave.
A kind of interesting statement. I dont know if i agree. I think it is a positive thing to have children from different age groups learn from each other. Obviously it shouldn't devolve into just babysitting, but the idea of mixed ages learning together doesn't seem inherently bad.
Former Eagle Scout here -- I agree a bit with this analysis. The absolute best parts of it for me were the high adventure camps, backpacking, etc. The absolute worst where the Monday meetings. Depending on the vibe of the troop your activities bias one way or the other.
I'm currently scoutmaster and that is my thought. Camping is fun, but we do that once a month - what should we do the other times that is fun
My Troop spent a lot of the non-adventure time motivating us to learn skills that we would need on adventures. Knot tying, first aid, camp cooking, paddling technique, carpentry, etc. Many of the leaders were current or former Navy personnel (this was in a town with a maritime school), so they often told engaging stories about how they needed these skills. There were also low-commitment activities in town that children enjoyed: campfires with smores, tours of historical sites (old forts), bike rides, “hikes” around town, art projects, fund drives, etc.
Once you earn it you are an Eagle Scout for life. So you are an Eagle Scout not a “former” Eagle Scout. At least that’s what I was thought!
Looks like membership peaked in 1971. Add that chart to the list:
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
I remember, my older brother wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and I was of the age to initially join. Some respected counter culture person, I don't think I was him, but someone like George Carlin, started talking about the boy scouts being where men scouted boys. That was it, the boy scouts were instantly "uncool".
I assume that site is implying it's Nixon's fault? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
He certainly contributed, but I personally would not agree that it was all his fault.
The elephant in the room is
the pedophile in the Scoutmaster.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-america-have...
Why would any responsible parent put their child in such danger.
The danger is the same as anywhere. It just got in the news and now you think it is worse.
Yes, it is unfortunately. It is a great shame, because I believe scouting can be a positive experience when there are proper safeguards. They have paid out a lot of compensation recently.
In the USA, the Mormon church disaffiliated their programme from them a few years ago and that was a big blow to them too since a lot of LDS kids were members.
As scoutmaster the article feels wrong. There are things that I'm sure are wrong but I don't know what they are. the article doesn't seem right either though.
BSA rebranded itself “Scouting America.” The new name initializes to “SA,” common shorthand for sexual assault.
Well, as a german and history conscious person I think the acronym could also be taken in a completely different way.
Obviously they should have called it Scouting States.
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