I have a p50 or p51, it’s so heavy, just a tank. I think they called it the portable workstation. I have LOVED this thing. It ran any Linux distribution I needed, was speedy, keyboard never missed, it’s in a closet now in headless mode running proxmox.
I have a P50 or P51 and same. It’s a tank but love the thing. Mine is the model before they killed the drop on dock and I prefer that over the USB-C docks.
touches a bit on the early history of it as a pen computer project.
Still have my ThinkPad 755c, and still a bit bummed that I was never able to get OpenSTEP to run on it. (It's worth noting that when David Pogue complained of Steve Jobs using a ThinkPad after the purchase of NeXT by Apple that it was running NeXTstep and not Windows 95 as he claimed.)
Really wish the Lenovo Yogabook 9i was a ThinkPad model (so that it would have a Trackpoint) and that it used Wacom EMR stylus technology --- wouldn't've been able to resist that.
I just had my 25th ThinkPad anniversary, which started with a ThinkPad that was 5(?) years old at the time, and which I carried all around town (parks, cafes, student centers, libraries), every day, wrapped in a towel in my bag: https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/
ThinkPad was a very expensive taste. The key to being affordable to a poor student or open source developer was to acquire gently-used older models, keep them working, and run Linux. All useful skills, which I still apply.
At MIT, Ted Selker (TrackPoint inventor mentioned in the article) had some retail boxes of the IBM SpaceSaver II TrackPoint keyboard on a shelf in his office, and one time he casually offered to give me one. I had to decline, since I craved that exact keyboard, knew exactly how much they cost, and couldn't accept such an expensive gift. They still fetch a good price used, and their looks aged pretty well (the alternative at the time was almost certainly a beige or light gray 104-key): https://www.ebay.com/itm/227342514769
In 1984 he observed that it took 0.75 - 1.75 seconds to reposition the hand from the keyboard to the mouse, which is a long time for something that you do quite often. `
He tried many different ideas and built several prototypes, then later when he was working at IBM Alameda Research Lab, he had a chance to refine the idea into a product.
He had his father, a material scientist, help by designing the special non-skid rubber that the clitoris was made from.
IBM wouldn't let him ship it until it was measurably as efficient as a mouse for common tasks.
The thing going for it was that it eliminated the 0.75 - 1.75 second hand repositioning penalty, but of course the fundamental problem with it that you can't get around is that it's a relative positioning device, not an absolute positioning device like a mouse. So he had to come up with ways of overcoming that problem.
The trackpoint performs very well for mixed typing and pointing tasks, since you switch between typing and pointing so often, and that adds up to a lot of time, and is a very common way of using computers. The mouse is still better for tasks that are mostly pointing and clicking, but it takes up some prime real-estate on your desk, and there are many situations where a mouse is impossible to use with a laptop.
He also made the observation that when the cursor moved above eye tracking speed, you tended to lose track of it. And also the observation that some of the time you needed to position it finely around a small area, and other times you needed to move it quickly across a large area.
So he came up with a pressure-to-speed "transfer function" that had a non-linear mapping from how hard you were pressing it to how fast the cursor moved.
The mapping had a plateau at "predictable fine positioning speed" (i.e. there was a wide range of light pressure that would map to moving the cursor at one exact slow predictable speed, so you could smoothly cruise the cursor around with a light touch at a speed that was good for exact positioning. Then after the plateau of light pressure, it sloped up smoothly until just below eye tracking speed, where there was another plateau, mapping a wide range of harder pressure to a fast-but-not-so-fast-that-you-lose-track-of-it speed, for coarse positioning without losing the cursor. And then above that there was a fast speed for quickly flicking the cursor to the other side of the screen.
They did lots of user studies and took lots of measurements and performed lots of experiments to determine the best parameters for the pressure-to-speed transfer function, and finally came up with one that was measurably good enough to make IBM happy and ship in products.
So after pooh-pooh-ing the name "Joy Button", IBM finally settled on and trademarked the name "Trackpoint." But one concession they made, was when they published a two page ad spread in Time Magazine with a close-up of the trackpoint, above the slogan "So hot, we had to make it red!"
Another crazy but brilliant innovation he developed was the Thinkpad 755CV [9] that you could remove the back of the LCD screen and lay it down on an overhead projector to project the video! Nobody probably remembers overhead projectors any more, but they were very popular at the time, and that feature could save you a lot of money, and you never had to reboot it three times just to get the video on the projector, like with modern laptops!
He also made a prototype Thinkpad with TWO hot red trackpoints on the keyboard, which invitingly resembled a pair of nipples. It was very popular with everyone he tested it on, but unfortunately OS/2 had no idea how to cope with two pointing devices, so there wasn't much use for it, besides being a wonderful ice breaker at parties.
I don't know if his lab is the one that invented the butterfly keyboard, but it was another in a long line of wonderful innovative ideas that were coming out of IBM's research labs and showing up in the Thinkpad at the time.
I learned about this stuff from the talks and demos he gave at his NPUC - New Paradigms for Using Computers [10] workshop that he produced at IBM Alameda Research Labs. [11] -- it was a really great free workshop, including free lunch, with people like Marvin Minsky and John McCarthy!
> acquire gently-used older models, keep them working, and run Linux.
Even as a financially secure mid-career engineer this is still an excellent formula. Buy a "retired" Thinkpad on Ebay, upgrade RAM and NVMe if needed, replace battery if needed, then run it for a decade or more.
In a pursuit of saving even more money, I noticed a lot of T14 ThinkPads have missing/broken keys. Replacement keyboard is $20 and a few minutes of work. Worth about a $50-$100 discount.
The T series ThinkPads are back to being unsoldered the last couple gens. The regular ones anyway. I've got a T14 Gen 5 that I bought to meet the criteria of having AV1 hwdec and upgradeable RAM. It wouldn't surprise me if the T14s was still soldered, but I also avoid the s suffix models. X series is probably doomed for a similar reason (thinness over everything else), though maybe with LPCAMM2 there's some hope.
I would have bought one if they weren’t so pricey for the spec they ship. Similar specs on a IdeaPad goes I think something like 40% cheaper or more.
I understand people loving heavy duty ones. But the ones I have run into in the past had poorer screens and were just clunky to carry around. What’s the trade off here? Why do people still want a Thinkpad.
Edit: I just thought of one reason, some specs are not available in Ideapads due the power consumption and cooling needs I think. So Thinkpads on the lower end aren’t worth it?
If you're comparing new to new, ThinkPads are expensive, but even a year or two old on eBay will be pretty heavily discounted. I would suggest going that route. It should be a lot more durable than a gaming laptop as well.
I buy a thinkpad every month or so off ebay (for clients). I just bought a T16 Gen 3 Core Ultra 5 32GB/512GB NPU for $575 delivered w/ zero charge cycles, in orig packaging. Technically not new but it had never been used.
I'm typing this on a T14 Gen 2 Ryzen 7 Pro 32GB/512GB I picked up last year for $220. For my work bag I just bought a T14 Gen 3 i5-1250P 32GB/512GB WWAN for $370 that looks new.
I'm pushing folks to buy now - anything they'll need in the next 2 years. I'm convinced Ramageddon is trickling down into the (>3yo) used market. Ebay prices already seem up a bit from a few months ago.
I signed up for a business account and just used my name to get ~35% off a laptop before the Ram crisis. I think it's just one of those things where you're meant to have a business relationship. It was a very competitive price and a no-brainer for what I specced. I assume they assumed I would buy many more.
The Ideapads I have encountered over the years are just absolute shit quality. Its even started to infect the thinkpad lines. I would not stray too far from specific X, T or P models (and they definitely charge perhaps an unearned premium for them)
I agree with you on the Ideapads; the only reason to buy is on price: I bought a new one with Pentium Silver CPU and 4Gb RAM for $150 on sale and added 8gb RAM and installed Linux. With external keyboard and monitor it works great!
I have used an IdeaPad S540 for about 5-6 years. Upgrading RAM, WiFi modules along the way. Was bummed when Apple’s Mac Pro died on me 11months with no warning. And went back to IdeaPad again (this is where I gave up on Thinkpad). So I would swear by it. Not the current one, it’s got soldered RAM and I am less of a fan, but it just works - no issues.
I'm a fan of thinkpads but I didn't much like the "AI" branding as of late. I tried to look at what it means exactly and all I could find is that nobody actually knows. I still ended up purchasing one because it was a reasonable price and it could run Linux flawlessly. My experience with their pre-purchase sales team was not good and almost made me go somewhere else.
The build quality has improved over the past 5 generations or so. It was getting too plastic-y and felt brittle. Nothing like the original thinkpads though, those were built like bricks.
I've recently purchased my first ThinkPad with intel ultra series 2 chip. Especially the weight is impressive. It weighs less than 1 kg! It's a fabulous machine. I appreciate that it has linux kernel modules dedicated to thinkpad family, which, I believe, is a culmination of decades of users' love described in this article.
Ahh, that makes sense. I wasn’t on the lookout, and opened the article with a full intention to read it. I after the initial skim (and being somewhat disappointed at the length of the thing) I read a couple of sentences for the sections which interested me the most, and that was it. I could not read any more.
I repaired some of the early 700’s at IBM when they were still mostly in the hands of upper execs and no official repair manuals had been released. I’d get random unit showing up at our Madison Heights, MI repair depot addressed to me from names I only vaguely recognized.
I lived through this timeline, and with ThinkPads from different eras. Throughout, they were always considered in my science and computer science circles as "premium" laptops with excellent build quality, keyboards, and performance. The performance of my latest one (a P-series) always surprised me given the hardware specs.
I loved my 760C, with a trackpoint so hot they had to make it red, 90 MhZ, 12" 800x600 16 bit color screen, Mwave DSP (audio, fax modem), tilt up keyboard with lego-like modular bento bays for battery, floppy, hd, cd, magnesium body, soft touch black coating that melted with age.
DonHopkins 4 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: The struggle of resizing windows on macOS Tahoe
>"The products suck! There's no sex in them anymore!"
Enter "Lickable Pixels" -- the phrase that stuck to describe the Aqua era.
Introducing Mac OS X's Aqua interface, Jobs said at Macworld in January 2000: "We made the buttons on the screen look so good you'll want to lick them."
Then there was the red hot irresistibly sexy and well designed IBM Thinkpad TrackPoint -AKA- Keyboard Clitoris -AKA- Joy Button, and IBM's explicitly lascivious "So Hot, We Had To Make It Red" ad.
Ted Selker, the inventor of the TrackPoint, told me the story of how that ad got written and refined by focus groups: He slyly suggested the slogan, and IBM's ad designers begrudgingly put it on the page in small text in the corner, below the photo and ad copy. Then they A/B tested it with the text a little bigger, then a bit bolder, then even higher, and it finally worked its way up to the top of the page in BIG HUGE BOLD TEXT!
Ted Selker fondly reminds me of "Mr. Lossoff" the "Button Man" in "A Nero Wolfe Mystery” episode “The Mother Hunt”, where Archie drops in on "Mister Lossoff’s Distinguished Buttons” in the garment district of New York:
He's totally THAT enthusiastic, a distinguished expert fiendishly obsessed with buttons! He even carries around a big bag of replacement Joy Buttons that he hands out for free like candy to anyone who’s worn theirs out.
I know this from personal experience: Ted and his wife Ellen once ran into me working on my Thinkpad at some coffee shop in Mountain View, and Ted noticed my worn out Joy Button. He excused himself to run out to his car to fetch his Button Bag, while Ellen smiled at me and rolled her eyes up into her head and shrugged, and we hung out and talked until he got back. I really appreciated a nice new crisp one with fresh bumpy texture, because mine was totally worn down, and it made his day to get rid of a few. (I imagine their house has hoards of boxes and piles of bags full of them!)
The common thread: design that makes you come. Back for more, that is. Buttons to lick till they click. Nubs to rub till they're bald. Products you touched obsessively until they're worn smooth. Tahoe gives us clownish corners we can't even grab. Apple dropped the ball -- and frankly, it's a kick in the nuts.
----
Here's what Ted wrote about some of the other people involved with the Thinkpad and Trackpoint design, and his canine envy:
Ted> Actually i called it a joy nub (smaller than a joystick) and even made many vibrating joy nubs....
in fact i was flattered when Richard sapper decided to change it from a keyboard color to red and IBM came up with the marketing slogan "so hot we had to make it red"
In fact Bob Olyha and Joe Rutledge worked really hard to put a 5 position gesture recognizer in the firmware of the trackpoints that are sold today (N,S,E, W and press)! (three d gestures were a fun challenge)
Joe Rutledge, Barton Smith and Bob Olyha are the best contacts for software questions.
The keyboards can be purchased easily
I made many prototypes, many with force feedback and two handed scenarios, etc. the russian tea mouse was a special one which allowed a velcro on trackpoint the size of a thumb, nested in a mouse shaped object and a cover allowing for gross control from any movement of a large part of the body.
The scollmouse (a poormans trackpoint scroller) was sold as a product that outperformed wheels for pointing (not a real strain gauge based pointing stick)
Don> Didn't your dad help you design the material you made the original trackpoint out of?
Ted> He did. (chlorinated butyl rubber)
Don> Has airport security ever gotten suspicious of you carrying around a big sack of trackpoint nubs?
Ted> i am jealous of the 6 nipples dogs have aren't you.
Don> The virtual laptop sounds like a program that came with my old 90 mhz Thinkpad -- I think Ted Selker worked on it. It had a photorealistic virtual view of the laptop that you could turn around in different directions to see the various parts labeled, and it was integrated with documentation and status displays and control panels related to all the gadgets and interface plugs. For example, you could bring up the volume control panel by clicking on the speaker, and stuff like that!
Ted> YEP, i tried to get rid of the book and irq setting the lpt1 grids of buttons.... i can't find our "best ideas" here is an early crappy image or two....
here is how we deployed it (still has problems)
also i came up with an idea called wrapping paper instructions which never got deployed: no text
it showed how to open the laptop, put in the battery, use the ultrabay, remove the disk, open the keyboard to get to stuff, turn on the computer, plug in the computer, and use the notebook latches.
Can someone explain how he is running inference at decent speeds on a CPU or integrated mobile gpu? This seems to be the most important part that he just fails to mention anything about.
I still have my x61s, T460p, and currently running a T14 Gen 3. The x61s is just sitting there awaiting some future project. Hopefully it happens someday. The T460p has become a homelab server. I never should have sold my W500, that thing was awesome. I also have an 11e which is my burner Windows machine for doing sketchy stuff with cars.
I could have kept running the ca. 2015 T460p as my primary laptop--it has 32GB RAM, and decently powerful CPU and GPU--but the T14 is lighter, has much better battery life, generates less heat, etc. etc. Maybe I don't "get it" but I'm pretty happy with the fancy "new" machine.
I just replaced a T530 with a T14 gen 1 (R7 pro), and…yes. Super happy with the upgrade, for less than $300 mind you, even though I still love the old thickpad. It will live out its years in the rack, taking up an impressive amount of 1U.
I'm still "stuck" on the T530 for what many probably think are dumb reasons:
1. It's black. I used a laptop that was silver and white for years; it sucked. Being boring, non-flashy, and non-reflective is important to me since I get to use this computer in places where the lighting is outside of my control.
2. It has a 15" screen. That's the right size for me. (I do not care that it is larger heavier and heavier than alternatives; that part isn't on my radar.)
3. The keyboard is centered. It accomplishes this in part by lacking a numeric keypad. (I do not use numeric keypads because I grew up with an 85-key XT keyboard that could have a numeric keypad, or cursor keys, but not both at once...and I chose cursor keys.)
4. Ports. I often connect my laptop to other things. That's an important part of how I find utility with laptop computers.
5. I found it very cheap on eBay with a housing that still looked very minty.
It's been a fine machine. CPU and RAM are maxed out (amusingly, the cheapest way I found to get the best CPU was to buy the whole bottom half of another T530 that already had one installed, so now I've got spare parts). The cheap third-party battery works for most of a workday in testing, and I've never run out when away from an outlet. It's lovely.
It's hard to find anything more-recent that meets these requirements, but maybe I'll be able to score a used Framework 16 or something at some point.
I have a p50 or p51, it’s so heavy, just a tank. I think they called it the portable workstation. I have LOVED this thing. It ran any Linux distribution I needed, was speedy, keyboard never missed, it’s in a closet now in headless mode running proxmox.
A laptop to be carefully padded for protection... of people's walls and floors.
Getting a bit geriatric now, but we've had fun.[1]
[1] https://imgur.com/a/keyboard-cam-Z1VipaL
I have a P50 or P51 and same. It’s a tank but love the thing. Mine is the model before they killed the drop on dock and I prefer that over the USB-C docks.
I loved the drop on dock.
For more on this, the book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483933.ThinkPad
is highly recommended.
Also, Jerry Kaplan's wonderful:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1171250.Startup
touches a bit on the early history of it as a pen computer project.
Still have my ThinkPad 755c, and still a bit bummed that I was never able to get OpenSTEP to run on it. (It's worth noting that when David Pogue complained of Steve Jobs using a ThinkPad after the purchase of NeXT by Apple that it was running NeXTstep and not Windows 95 as he claimed.)
Really wish the Lenovo Yogabook 9i was a ThinkPad model (so that it would have a Trackpoint) and that it used Wacom EMR stylus technology --- wouldn't've been able to resist that.
I just had my 25th ThinkPad anniversary, which started with a ThinkPad that was 5(?) years old at the time, and which I carried all around town (parks, cafes, student centers, libraries), every day, wrapped in a towel in my bag: https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/
ThinkPad was a very expensive taste. The key to being affordable to a poor student or open source developer was to acquire gently-used older models, keep them working, and run Linux. All useful skills, which I still apply.
At MIT, Ted Selker (TrackPoint inventor mentioned in the article) had some retail boxes of the IBM SpaceSaver II TrackPoint keyboard on a shelf in his office, and one time he casually offered to give me one. I had to decline, since I craved that exact keyboard, knew exactly how much they cost, and couldn't accept such an expensive gift. They still fetch a good price used, and their looks aged pretty well (the alternative at the time was almost certainly a beige or light gray 104-key): https://www.ebay.com/itm/227342514769
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34420450
[...]
In 1984 he observed that it took 0.75 - 1.75 seconds to reposition the hand from the keyboard to the mouse, which is a long time for something that you do quite often. `
He tried many different ideas and built several prototypes, then later when he was working at IBM Alameda Research Lab, he had a chance to refine the idea into a product.
He had his father, a material scientist, help by designing the special non-skid rubber that the clitoris was made from.
IBM wouldn't let him ship it until it was measurably as efficient as a mouse for common tasks.
The thing going for it was that it eliminated the 0.75 - 1.75 second hand repositioning penalty, but of course the fundamental problem with it that you can't get around is that it's a relative positioning device, not an absolute positioning device like a mouse. So he had to come up with ways of overcoming that problem.
The trackpoint performs very well for mixed typing and pointing tasks, since you switch between typing and pointing so often, and that adds up to a lot of time, and is a very common way of using computers. The mouse is still better for tasks that are mostly pointing and clicking, but it takes up some prime real-estate on your desk, and there are many situations where a mouse is impossible to use with a laptop.
He also made the observation that when the cursor moved above eye tracking speed, you tended to lose track of it. And also the observation that some of the time you needed to position it finely around a small area, and other times you needed to move it quickly across a large area.
So he came up with a pressure-to-speed "transfer function" that had a non-linear mapping from how hard you were pressing it to how fast the cursor moved.
The mapping had a plateau at "predictable fine positioning speed" (i.e. there was a wide range of light pressure that would map to moving the cursor at one exact slow predictable speed, so you could smoothly cruise the cursor around with a light touch at a speed that was good for exact positioning. Then after the plateau of light pressure, it sloped up smoothly until just below eye tracking speed, where there was another plateau, mapping a wide range of harder pressure to a fast-but-not-so-fast-that-you-lose-track-of-it speed, for coarse positioning without losing the cursor. And then above that there was a fast speed for quickly flicking the cursor to the other side of the screen.
They did lots of user studies and took lots of measurements and performed lots of experiments to determine the best parameters for the pressure-to-speed transfer function, and finally came up with one that was measurably good enough to make IBM happy and ship in products.
So after pooh-pooh-ing the name "Joy Button", IBM finally settled on and trademarked the name "Trackpoint." But one concession they made, was when they published a two page ad spread in Time Magazine with a close-up of the trackpoint, above the slogan "So hot, we had to make it red!"
Another crazy but brilliant innovation he developed was the Thinkpad 755CV [9] that you could remove the back of the LCD screen and lay it down on an overhead projector to project the video! Nobody probably remembers overhead projectors any more, but they were very popular at the time, and that feature could save you a lot of money, and you never had to reboot it three times just to get the video on the projector, like with modern laptops!
[9] http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:755CV
He also made a prototype Thinkpad with TWO hot red trackpoints on the keyboard, which invitingly resembled a pair of nipples. It was very popular with everyone he tested it on, but unfortunately OS/2 had no idea how to cope with two pointing devices, so there wasn't much use for it, besides being a wonderful ice breaker at parties.
I don't know if his lab is the one that invented the butterfly keyboard, but it was another in a long line of wonderful innovative ideas that were coming out of IBM's research labs and showing up in the Thinkpad at the time.
I learned about this stuff from the talks and demos he gave at his NPUC - New Paradigms for Using Computers [10] workshop that he produced at IBM Alameda Research Labs. [11] -- it was a really great free workshop, including free lunch, with people like Marvin Minsky and John McCarthy!
[10] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC3SPFfKQMM
[11] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10AB0yqxGEw
[...]
> acquire gently-used older models, keep them working, and run Linux.
Even as a financially secure mid-career engineer this is still an excellent formula. Buy a "retired" Thinkpad on Ebay, upgrade RAM and NVMe if needed, replace battery if needed, then run it for a decade or more.
In a pursuit of saving even more money, I noticed a lot of T14 ThinkPads have missing/broken keys. Replacement keyboard is $20 and a few minutes of work. Worth about a $50-$100 discount.
If you buy replacement laptop keyboards, be sure to test them promptly, not just stockpile them as spares.
I started to see some poor-quality 'genuine' replacement ThinkPad keyboards. Bad action, bad fit of assembly with keycap catching on bezel, etc.
I considered it not-unlikely that no more good ones would be made, since Lenovo had stopped selling laptops that used that part.
So I stockpiled some good ones while I could, by sampling from a diversity of sellers. I wound up with 3 good spares, and 2 bad.
The product lines have drifted over the years.
The workstations might have replaceable RAM but like apple some the x line and t line (I think?) have RAM soldered on so no upgrades :(
The T series ThinkPads are back to being unsoldered the last couple gens. The regular ones anyway. I've got a T14 Gen 5 that I bought to meet the criteria of having AV1 hwdec and upgradeable RAM. It wouldn't surprise me if the T14s was still soldered, but I also avoid the s suffix models. X series is probably doomed for a similar reason (thinness over everything else), though maybe with LPCAMM2 there's some hope.
I would have bought one if they weren’t so pricey for the spec they ship. Similar specs on a IdeaPad goes I think something like 40% cheaper or more.
I understand people loving heavy duty ones. But the ones I have run into in the past had poorer screens and were just clunky to carry around. What’s the trade off here? Why do people still want a Thinkpad.
Edit: I just thought of one reason, some specs are not available in Ideapads due the power consumption and cooling needs I think. So Thinkpads on the lower end aren’t worth it?
If you're comparing new to new, ThinkPads are expensive, but even a year or two old on eBay will be pretty heavily discounted. I would suggest going that route. It should be a lot more durable than a gaming laptop as well.
I buy a thinkpad every month or so off ebay (for clients). I just bought a T16 Gen 3 Core Ultra 5 32GB/512GB NPU for $575 delivered w/ zero charge cycles, in orig packaging. Technically not new but it had never been used.
I'm typing this on a T14 Gen 2 Ryzen 7 Pro 32GB/512GB I picked up last year for $220. For my work bag I just bought a T14 Gen 3 i5-1250P 32GB/512GB WWAN for $370 that looks new.
I'm pushing folks to buy now - anything they'll need in the next 2 years. I'm convinced Ramageddon is trickling down into the (>3yo) used market. Ebay prices already seem up a bit from a few months ago.
Thank you. This is a great tip.
I signed up for a business account and just used my name to get ~35% off a laptop before the Ram crisis. I think it's just one of those things where you're meant to have a business relationship. It was a very competitive price and a no-brainer for what I specced. I assume they assumed I would buy many more.
The Ideapads I have encountered over the years are just absolute shit quality. Its even started to infect the thinkpad lines. I would not stray too far from specific X, T or P models (and they definitely charge perhaps an unearned premium for them)
I agree with you on the Ideapads; the only reason to buy is on price: I bought a new one with Pentium Silver CPU and 4Gb RAM for $150 on sale and added 8gb RAM and installed Linux. With external keyboard and monitor it works great!
I have used an IdeaPad S540 for about 5-6 years. Upgrading RAM, WiFi modules along the way. Was bummed when Apple’s Mac Pro died on me 11months with no warning. And went back to IdeaPad again (this is where I gave up on Thinkpad). So I would swear by it. Not the current one, it’s got soldered RAM and I am less of a fan, but it just works - no issues.
Some lines are better than others. I avoid ideapads and yogas. I buy T series and on rare occasion an E series (if the price is too good).
For desktops, it's ThinkCentre Tiny all the way.
No trackpoint, no deal.
Ha! That’s a valid point. My trackpad is crap on Linux.
I'm a fan of thinkpads but I didn't much like the "AI" branding as of late. I tried to look at what it means exactly and all I could find is that nobody actually knows. I still ended up purchasing one because it was a reasonable price and it could run Linux flawlessly. My experience with their pre-purchase sales team was not good and almost made me go somewhere else.
The build quality has improved over the past 5 generations or so. It was getting too plastic-y and felt brittle. Nothing like the original thinkpads though, those were built like bricks.
I've recently purchased my first ThinkPad with intel ultra series 2 chip. Especially the weight is impressive. It weighs less than 1 kg! It's a fabulous machine. I appreciate that it has linux kernel modules dedicated to thinkpad family, which, I believe, is a culmination of decades of users' love described in this article.
Would have been interesting if not very AI generated :(
We have to get used to it, HN these days consists mostly of LinkedIn people and bots. BTW, the latter is often operated by the former.
It's like the playing field was leveled exclusively for the benefit of the mediocre.
It is unfortunate because the content and subject matter isn't actually bad, but yes, there are definite AI-generated tells here.
Ahh, that makes sense. I wasn’t on the lookout, and opened the article with a full intention to read it. I after the initial skim (and being somewhat disappointed at the length of the thing) I read a couple of sentences for the sections which interested me the most, and that was it. I could not read any more.
Now I know why.
I repaired some of the early 700’s at IBM when they were still mostly in the hands of upper execs and no official repair manuals had been released. I’d get random unit showing up at our Madison Heights, MI repair depot addressed to me from names I only vaguely recognized.
I lived through this timeline, and with ThinkPads from different eras. Throughout, they were always considered in my science and computer science circles as "premium" laptops with excellent build quality, keyboards, and performance. The performance of my latest one (a P-series) always surprised me given the hardware specs.
I loved my 760C, with a trackpoint so hot they had to make it red, 90 MhZ, 12" 800x600 16 bit color screen, Mwave DSP (audio, fax modem), tilt up keyboard with lego-like modular bento bays for battery, floppy, hd, cd, magnesium body, soft touch black coating that melted with age.
To contextualize the "so hot" reference, that was from an actual full page IBM ad:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46581424
DonHopkins 4 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: The struggle of resizing windows on macOS Tahoe
>"The products suck! There's no sex in them anymore!"
Enter "Lickable Pixels" -- the phrase that stuck to describe the Aqua era.
Introducing Mac OS X's Aqua interface, Jobs said at Macworld in January 2000: "We made the buttons on the screen look so good you'll want to lick them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_(user_interface)
Then there was the red hot irresistibly sexy and well designed IBM Thinkpad TrackPoint -AKA- Keyboard Clitoris -AKA- Joy Button, and IBM's explicitly lascivious "So Hot, We Had To Make It Red" ad.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/hodidb/so_hot_we_...
Ted Selker, the inventor of the TrackPoint, told me the story of how that ad got written and refined by focus groups: He slyly suggested the slogan, and IBM's ad designers begrudgingly put it on the page in small text in the corner, below the photo and ad copy. Then they A/B tested it with the text a little bigger, then a bit bolder, then even higher, and it finally worked its way up to the top of the page in BIG HUGE BOLD TEXT!
More about Ted's work:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34425576
Ted Selker fondly reminds me of "Mr. Lossoff" the "Button Man" in "A Nero Wolfe Mystery” episode “The Mother Hunt”, where Archie drops in on "Mister Lossoff’s Distinguished Buttons” in the garment district of New York:
https://youtu.be/h-QgWOSVKm4?t=724
He's totally THAT enthusiastic, a distinguished expert fiendishly obsessed with buttons! He even carries around a big bag of replacement Joy Buttons that he hands out for free like candy to anyone who’s worn theirs out.
I know this from personal experience: Ted and his wife Ellen once ran into me working on my Thinkpad at some coffee shop in Mountain View, and Ted noticed my worn out Joy Button. He excused himself to run out to his car to fetch his Button Bag, while Ellen smiled at me and rolled her eyes up into her head and shrugged, and we hung out and talked until he got back. I really appreciated a nice new crisp one with fresh bumpy texture, because mine was totally worn down, and it made his day to get rid of a few. (I imagine their house has hoards of boxes and piles of bags full of them!)
The common thread: design that makes you come. Back for more, that is. Buttons to lick till they click. Nubs to rub till they're bald. Products you touched obsessively until they're worn smooth. Tahoe gives us clownish corners we can't even grab. Apple dropped the ball -- and frankly, it's a kick in the nuts.
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Here's what Ted wrote about some of the other people involved with the Thinkpad and Trackpoint design, and his canine envy:
Ted> Actually i called it a joy nub (smaller than a joystick) and even made many vibrating joy nubs....
in fact i was flattered when Richard sapper decided to change it from a keyboard color to red and IBM came up with the marketing slogan "so hot we had to make it red"
In fact Bob Olyha and Joe Rutledge worked really hard to put a 5 position gesture recognizer in the firmware of the trackpoints that are sold today (N,S,E, W and press)! (three d gestures were a fun challenge)
Joe Rutledge, Barton Smith and Bob Olyha are the best contacts for software questions.
The keyboards can be purchased easily
I made many prototypes, many with force feedback and two handed scenarios, etc. the russian tea mouse was a special one which allowed a velcro on trackpoint the size of a thumb, nested in a mouse shaped object and a cover allowing for gross control from any movement of a large part of the body.
The scollmouse (a poormans trackpoint scroller) was sold as a product that outperformed wheels for pointing (not a real strain gauge based pointing stick)
Don> Didn't your dad help you design the material you made the original trackpoint out of?
Ted> He did. (chlorinated butyl rubber)
Don> Has airport security ever gotten suspicious of you carrying around a big sack of trackpoint nubs?
Ted> i am jealous of the 6 nipples dogs have aren't you.
Don> The virtual laptop sounds like a program that came with my old 90 mhz Thinkpad -- I think Ted Selker worked on it. It had a photorealistic virtual view of the laptop that you could turn around in different directions to see the various parts labeled, and it was integrated with documentation and status displays and control panels related to all the gadgets and interface plugs. For example, you could bring up the volume control panel by clicking on the speaker, and stuff like that!
Ted> YEP, i tried to get rid of the book and irq setting the lpt1 grids of buttons.... i can't find our "best ideas" here is an early crappy image or two....
here is how we deployed it (still has problems)
also i came up with an idea called wrapping paper instructions which never got deployed: no text
it showed how to open the laptop, put in the battery, use the ultrabay, remove the disk, open the keyboard to get to stuff, turn on the computer, plug in the computer, and use the notebook latches.
Can someone explain how he is running inference at decent speeds on a CPU or integrated mobile gpu? This seems to be the most important part that he just fails to mention anything about.
I still have my x61s, T460p, and currently running a T14 Gen 3. The x61s is just sitting there awaiting some future project. Hopefully it happens someday. The T460p has become a homelab server. I never should have sold my W500, that thing was awesome. I also have an 11e which is my burner Windows machine for doing sketchy stuff with cars.
you will NEVER understand it fully....
for you t460 is just a webserver, while for me t470s is my state of the art sole machine...
IMO youu undervalue the magic and robustness of those laptops.
I could have kept running the ca. 2015 T460p as my primary laptop--it has 32GB RAM, and decently powerful CPU and GPU--but the T14 is lighter, has much better battery life, generates less heat, etc. etc. Maybe I don't "get it" but I'm pretty happy with the fancy "new" machine.
I just replaced a T530 with a T14 gen 1 (R7 pro), and…yes. Super happy with the upgrade, for less than $300 mind you, even though I still love the old thickpad. It will live out its years in the rack, taking up an impressive amount of 1U.
I'm still "stuck" on the T530 for what many probably think are dumb reasons:
1. It's black. I used a laptop that was silver and white for years; it sucked. Being boring, non-flashy, and non-reflective is important to me since I get to use this computer in places where the lighting is outside of my control.
2. It has a 15" screen. That's the right size for me. (I do not care that it is larger heavier and heavier than alternatives; that part isn't on my radar.)
3. The keyboard is centered. It accomplishes this in part by lacking a numeric keypad. (I do not use numeric keypads because I grew up with an 85-key XT keyboard that could have a numeric keypad, or cursor keys, but not both at once...and I chose cursor keys.)
4. Ports. I often connect my laptop to other things. That's an important part of how I find utility with laptop computers.
5. I found it very cheap on eBay with a housing that still looked very minty.
It's been a fine machine. CPU and RAM are maxed out (amusingly, the cheapest way I found to get the best CPU was to buy the whole bottom half of another T530 that already had one installed, so now I've got spare parts). The cheap third-party battery works for most of a workday in testing, and I've never run out when away from an outlet. It's lovely.
It's hard to find anything more-recent that meets these requirements, but maybe I'll be able to score a used Framework 16 or something at some point.
Do people not realize what they do to their reputation when they publish bottom-of-the-barrel, unedited AI slop under their own name?