This is a recipe to make the work place (the world) a worse place every single day.
The powerful people get affirmation and validation for their evilness. But it is not all. The caving and ducking people will inevitably start to adopt that evilness. It is culture after all. It is obvious that treating people "under oneself" badly it the way to be and to become powerful. It is the dictatorship of the strongER.
I guess this is why/How world leaders lick the A-Hole of DJT.
I advocate standing your ground, discovering the micro Iran in yourself. And let us put the evil back in the box!
Yes. Hence why I personally believe learning how to be productive outside of power hierarchies is the most important thing for the Western world to learn.
It sure would have helped with my learning curve. Coming from a home and a college where it was ok to criticize or examine ideas openly, it took me a while to figure out what was I doing wrong.
There is a big cultural aspects too. This was in India. Questioning seniors in group meetings is usually a big no no that I wasn't aware of.
Well, I was aware, but I thought that an international big corp would not have that problem. Was I wrong.
This was not my experience. I had to climb a few levels to really start interacting with other teams on a consistent basis and see how politics plays out and how it could affect my own career. In particular, learning that while at a high level teams may be aligned but on a lower level there are a lot of natural reasons why individual team goals may end up in conflict with each other and how to have empathy for the goals of folks outside myself was something that took a long time to come into focus. A large number of folks seem to live in eternal ignorance of politics for most of their careers. Sometimes you just need to be exposed to the right situations to grow.
During my first role at <big company>, I believe I accidentally made an enemy of a couple of directors due to ill-timed interpersonal awkwardness and unwillingness to suck up. What can I say - I thought tech was about meritocracy and cutting the BS. I was laid off in the next round despite doing good work. I learned my lesson and now I’m (I think) well-liked.
When I first started working as a programmer in the early 90's, I was surrounded by older guys whose advice was always along the lines of "hoard information and knowledge, make yourself indispensable/unfireable". It seemed like silly advice to me at the time - surely as long as I was doing good work, I'd be recognized/rewarded, right?
Yeah, after a couple of decades in this meat grinder I realized they were right: the best survival skill is to just know a lot of stuff that nobody else knows.
I am very vigilant of whether I am sucking up to anyone.
So in one of my first grad school conferences I see this stalwart professor making his way through different poster presentations. I don't think he encourages it, but people fawn upon him in subtle and not so subtle ways to gain recognition. After all he is Michael Jordan.
As I saw him approach, I told myself that I will not send any signals that could plausible be mistaken for obsequiousness.
Turns out he was not the professor I thought he was and with a hindsight of few decades, I was just rude to him ... just because of mistaken identity.
Not overly rude, but not nice either. Wayward ways of the youth.
This is the best advice I've read on HN in a long time. Kudos to those with FU money who can ignore it, but this is how you stay employed and thrive in a corporate environment.
It is funny. Well-socialized person doesn't need this kind of guide, as unwritten rules of social play are learned in the process of growing-up.
But it is clear for "nerds" and "hackers" social is impenetrable, thus preference for interacting with the machine and towards techno-solutionism. What, by the way, the main reason FOSS movement will never liberate anything.
It's more than that, some of us actually believe in a thing called "good work."
The idea that powerful manager saying untrue things shouldn't be contradicted may seem like "obviously correct" to you, but actually at the places where 80% of engineers call that shit out that political manager probably gets booted from the company.
But many people genuinely believe politicians are a net negative on the company as a whole, and in startups many people are willing to do/say what's best for the company without expecting some individual return.
> actually at the places where 80% of engineers call that shit out that political manager probably gets booted from the company.
Congrats, you will soon discover that politics is about realizing your goals by influencing other people and their decisions. And it is easier when you end up in the group that share your set of values.
Oh family as well, when going beyond the one household, into the remainig family branches especially if money, property are involved, or going against the house culture and expectations for one's life choices.
OOC, if you accept the premise that they would have been a good place to practice/understand this sort of thing, and got a chance to “do over,” would you still keep your distance?
Difficult to answer because I find some of the machinations so distressing. Perhaps it is the way I am wired.
Given the benefits of the knowledge that became apparent later in life, I might have preferred looking on from a distance to understand how things work.
But good question. You made me re-evaluated a choice I had made.
School, workplace, sports club, but yes, family as well.
Children learn how to influence their parents to get what the want, which parent they should put pressure on, which parent should be first to be told about some issue etc.
We don't call it politics as it is just a natural thing, but the principle is the same.
I recently had a conversation with some friends, and one mentioned that she hates office politics and tries to stay out of it. It clicked for me: people who hate/abstain from office “politics” are just clueless about the social/organizational hierarchy.
Absolutely there is some real political nastiness that can happen, but 98 3/4% of what’s described as office politics really just seems like a) make decisions that are aligned with the company and b) make someone up your management chain look good.
This is a recipe to make the work place (the world) a worse place every single day. The powerful people get affirmation and validation for their evilness. But it is not all. The caving and ducking people will inevitably start to adopt that evilness. It is culture after all. It is obvious that treating people "under oneself" badly it the way to be and to become powerful. It is the dictatorship of the strongER. I guess this is why/How world leaders lick the A-Hole of DJT. I advocate standing your ground, discovering the micro Iran in yourself. And let us put the evil back in the box!
Yes. Hence why I personally believe learning how to be productive outside of power hierarchies is the most important thing for the Western world to learn.
Really this needs a guide?
Anyone that has worked on big corp gets thrown into office politics since day one.
Yes.
It sure would have helped with my learning curve. Coming from a home and a college where it was ok to criticize or examine ideas openly, it took me a while to figure out what was I doing wrong.
There is a big cultural aspects too. This was in India. Questioning seniors in group meetings is usually a big no no that I wasn't aware of.
Well, I was aware, but I thought that an international big corp would not have that problem. Was I wrong.
This was not my experience. I had to climb a few levels to really start interacting with other teams on a consistent basis and see how politics plays out and how it could affect my own career. In particular, learning that while at a high level teams may be aligned but on a lower level there are a lot of natural reasons why individual team goals may end up in conflict with each other and how to have empathy for the goals of folks outside myself was something that took a long time to come into focus. A large number of folks seem to live in eternal ignorance of politics for most of their careers. Sometimes you just need to be exposed to the right situations to grow.
During my first role at <big company>, I believe I accidentally made an enemy of a couple of directors due to ill-timed interpersonal awkwardness and unwillingness to suck up. What can I say - I thought tech was about meritocracy and cutting the BS. I was laid off in the next round despite doing good work. I learned my lesson and now I’m (I think) well-liked.
When I first started working as a programmer in the early 90's, I was surrounded by older guys whose advice was always along the lines of "hoard information and knowledge, make yourself indispensable/unfireable". It seemed like silly advice to me at the time - surely as long as I was doing good work, I'd be recognized/rewarded, right?
Yeah, after a couple of decades in this meat grinder I realized they were right: the best survival skill is to just know a lot of stuff that nobody else knows.
I am bent the other way.
I am very vigilant of whether I am sucking up to anyone.
So in one of my first grad school conferences I see this stalwart professor making his way through different poster presentations. I don't think he encourages it, but people fawn upon him in subtle and not so subtle ways to gain recognition. After all he is Michael Jordan.
As I saw him approach, I told myself that I will not send any signals that could plausible be mistaken for obsequiousness.
Turns out he was not the professor I thought he was and with a hindsight of few decades, I was just rude to him ... just because of mistaken identity.
Not overly rude, but not nice either. Wayward ways of the youth.
This is the best advice I've read on HN in a long time. Kudos to those with FU money who can ignore it, but this is how you stay employed and thrive in a corporate environment.
It is funny. Well-socialized person doesn't need this kind of guide, as unwritten rules of social play are learned in the process of growing-up.
But it is clear for "nerds" and "hackers" social is impenetrable, thus preference for interacting with the machine and towards techno-solutionism. What, by the way, the main reason FOSS movement will never liberate anything.
It's more than that, some of us actually believe in a thing called "good work."
The idea that powerful manager saying untrue things shouldn't be contradicted may seem like "obviously correct" to you, but actually at the places where 80% of engineers call that shit out that political manager probably gets booted from the company.
But many people genuinely believe politicians are a net negative on the company as a whole, and in startups many people are willing to do/say what's best for the company without expecting some individual return.
> actually at the places where 80% of engineers call that shit out that political manager probably gets booted from the company.
Congrats, you will soon discover that politics is about realizing your goals by influencing other people and their decisions. And it is easier when you end up in the group that share your set of values.
> unwritten rules of social play are learned in the process of growing-up.
Could you elaborate. Under which circumstances does one learn these things. Family, surely not. I hope so.
Oh family as well, when going beyond the one household, into the remainig family branches especially if money, property are involved, or going against the house culture and expectations for one's life choices.
I learned this best in university clubs that had elected positions
Ah ! Makes sense. Those places seemed quite toxic and I kept my distance from those.
OOC, if you accept the premise that they would have been a good place to practice/understand this sort of thing, and got a chance to “do over,” would you still keep your distance?
Difficult to answer because I find some of the machinations so distressing. Perhaps it is the way I am wired.
Given the benefits of the knowledge that became apparent later in life, I might have preferred looking on from a distance to understand how things work.
But good question. You made me re-evaluated a choice I had made.
> Family, surely not. I hope so
School, workplace, sports club, but yes, family as well.
Children learn how to influence their parents to get what the want, which parent they should put pressure on, which parent should be first to be told about some issue etc.
We don't call it politics as it is just a natural thing, but the principle is the same.
I recently had a conversation with some friends, and one mentioned that she hates office politics and tries to stay out of it. It clicked for me: people who hate/abstain from office “politics” are just clueless about the social/organizational hierarchy.
Absolutely there is some real political nastiness that can happen, but 98 3/4% of what’s described as office politics really just seems like a) make decisions that are aligned with the company and b) make someone up your management chain look good.
The problem is those rules aren't the same across the world, so what works in one place doesn't apply to the next.