Also, gonna post the crowdfunding link for Samuel Tunick, the American protestor facing federal charges for allegedly giving a DHS officer a GrapheneOS duress password:
Given how long I've been using Graphene, this is not a bad idea also because there has been increasing pressure from governments clamping down on privacy solutions
I got a Pixel 10 during prime day and installed GrapheneOS with Cape for the provider. So far, it's been mostly great. The only setback, for me, is the lack of support for tap to pay. I haven't been able to get any wallet app to work. I keep my iphone with minimal service mainly to still have tap to pay and do facetime with my book club.
I've tried two things. The free version is, I've stuck a card which supports tap to pay inside my phone case. Big brain time, I know, but it actually works reasonably well. Many modern card phone cases now put shielding in (they didn't used to), which on one level I appreciate, but it limits its utility in this particular use case. I haven't tried one of the current cases to see if the shielding can be easily removed. A thin, flat card with etched/printed numbers is better than one with stamped/raised numbers.
Beyond that, I've been quite happy with Garmin Pay. The watch itself doesn't have a mic or LTE radio, I leave it on airplane mode the vast majority of the time, and it works without the phone nearby. As privacy-hostile-device privacy policies go, Garmin has one of the less offensive ones. I run the Garmin apps in the Owner profile's private space.
I've never had it not work for payment in years of using it, and in fact, at one one payment kiosk I tried to use Apple Pay for a particular large purchase when it made sense to, the kiosk refused repeatedly, but then accepted Garmin Pay.
Their lowest-end devices still don't support it, but I think you can get into it for an MSRP of about $250, and they tend to discount at all of the predictable times. Also, eBay.
Re: FaceTime, there's a way to do it from Android if you're invited (I don't think you can initiate it), but I haven't messed with it in years. See if you can get a good privacy book for normies on the agenda and suggest moving to Signal during the discussion.
I got a new Pixel 10 Pro a few months ago and immediately installed GrapheneOS. It's all been good, but I can no longer use Strava on that phone and I'm looking for a Strava replacement.
As far as tap-to-pay goes, I still carry around a few credit cards with RFID chips, which I trust more than any mobile payment method.
I have a Pixel 7 Pro and I've been considering reflashing with GrapheneOS. I bought a Garmin watch which does tap-to-pay to deal with the loss of that feature.
How is the camera on GrapheneOS compared to the stock Pixel 10? Do your banking apps work without playing cat-and-mouse games?
Default camera app is decent and has imo all the basic necessities. You could obviously install the Google camera app and use that if you're after the software features like AI enhancement etc.
Got 3 banking apps (Europe) and they work without a hitch or complaint since installing over 3 years ago. I still use physical cards though so tap-to-pay is a no but I was never interested in that.
I have a garmin but my banks don't suppose it for tap.
There are a few settings you have to adjust for the camera to be any good. I thought it was trash until this weekend when I found the settings. The default has quality at 95% and has "highest photo resolution" toggled off. The stock camera app doesn't seem to let you set the resolution specifically.
I use Varo and Sofi. Both apps work on my phone. The only app I have had a specific problem with was the MyQ app, but there is a workaround for that one.
I added a ratgdo to my garage door opener and use that with Home Assistant (and wireguard to my phone) instead of MyQ, so that wouldn't be a problem.
It's probably worth doing, but I have about three and a half years of data / setup on my phone and I'd have to wipe that all out. I wouldn't permanently lose data, but I did spend a good amount of time setting up my home screen, etc. It's a big leap! :-)
I haven't noticed the battery life being bad or good. So I guess it is fine. My other phone is an iphone 17 pro max. I feel like the battery degrades at about the same rate on both phones, but I use the pixel more.
Similar experience, so i just use my garmin watch to pay. Similar compatibility as google pay, but since it runs entirely on the watch it does not check against play integrity.
You don't want tap-to-pay to work because tap-to-pay requires a bunch of proprietary shitware in order for banks to trust it. It's basically like saying Netflix won't work because of Widevine DRM. Just tap your actual bank card, it's more secure anyway. Or your other, non-secure phone.
Stop doing this. Yes, I want tap-to-pay to work. I don't want to be told I don't want that; I want it to work without the proprietary attestation garbage.
I do have to say that if you're interested in privacy, tap to pay or even a credit card is the opposite of that. Cash would be the way to go for private transactions.
As honeypots go (I'm only joking, well, half-joking), Cape's pretty great on a lot of levels.
I'm glad Cape has competition and hope Phreeli succeeds, but the time when I'd happily contribute to anything he starts is long gone. The substantial credibility he genuinely earned has finally been fully spent, at least for me, but I do hope it becomes a viable option.
Is there any hope of Verizon's network being added to your coverage? I spend a lot of time in pretty remote places and Cape's coverage is up there with its pricing in terms of being a major barrier to retention.
Cape has SIM swap protection and IMSI rotation. As far as I know, Phreeli doesn't. Phreelie just promises not to collect, use or sell your data but doesn't seem to have any actual privacy tools like Cape does.
Same here. This situation is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous that I don't know how anybody takes GrapheneOS seriously. I mean, let's say I wanted to buy a big airplane but I don't like Boeing. Airbus looks pretty good and they invite me to their factory to pick out a plane. But then they insist I fly to their factory on a Boeing plane. I'd assume they were joking, and then they say "Really, we're serious."
You can always buy an used Pixel. GOS only supports phones with hardware that they deem secure enough, and Google is currently the only manufacturer that makes phones that match their requirements[1], with upcoming Motorola phones that also support or even come with GOS installed coming out next year. I find this point so obvious that I can't understand people making comments like "can't take them seriously": you make security/privacy OS, having insecure hardware that compromises the whole project would simply not make any sense. Ask other manufacturers to do better.
I would if I could even use their OS. Pixel phones are not available in my country and to import them is to pay 3x the amount I would spend on another phone.
This is surely the closest to a solution we have, IMO. An alternative to the Android-iOS duopoly that involves futzing with cables and command lines is never going to go mainstream. By contrast, a vertically integrated FOSS(ish) hardware-software stack might eventually get to 5% market share, like desktop Linux. At which point companies and governments will be forced to take software freedom slightly more seriously. That's my optimistic take.
https://proxysto.re/en/ sells GrapheneOS phones, with worldwide shipping I believe. They do donate a portion of every sale to GrapheneOS. However, you're recommended to install GrapheneOS yourself and not buy it from someone else, so that you know it hasn't been tampered with.
They start their list with "GitHub Sponsors (credit card)", then list five cryptocurrencies (Bitcoin, Monero, Zcash, Ethereum, Cardano, Litecoin), two of which have "We aren't looking for donations of tokens, only Ethereum [resp. Cardano] itself." Then Wise Quick Pay, then Local Bank Transfer (providing the Wise bank details for Belgium, UK, US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hungary, and Turkey), then PayPal (in CAD, USD, EUR, GBP – pointing out the PayPal fee), and finally Interac e-Transfer. I wonder whether there's a reason for this order?
Also, PayPal's fee, as described, is fairly steep:
> PayPal charges a base fee of 30 cents and 2.9% of the donation amount within Canada. There's an additional 0.8% fee for donations from the US and 1% for other countries. Currency conversion adds an additional 4% fee as opposed to the usual PayPal conversion fee of 3%.
GrapheneOS, for all intents and purposes, still heavily promotes Google and it's services (and no, "sandboxing" is not the solution if you still have to rely on that crap). And they would probably still happy force everyone to buy Google hardware (Pixel) if it weren't for middle-finger from said Google (lack of drivers tree…)
You don't have to install Google Play Services at all. If you have to install it anyway, then Graphene's implementation seems a lot more mature than microG or any other solution out there for /e/ OS.
Also, gonna post the crowdfunding link for Samuel Tunick, the American protestor facing federal charges for allegedly giving a DHS officer a GrapheneOS duress password:
https://www.givesendgo.com/letsamgo
It's important he beats his charges to prevent setting an unfavorable precedent for digital privacy rights.
Given how long I've been using Graphene, this is not a bad idea also because there has been increasing pressure from governments clamping down on privacy solutions
I got a Pixel 10 during prime day and installed GrapheneOS with Cape for the provider. So far, it's been mostly great. The only setback, for me, is the lack of support for tap to pay. I haven't been able to get any wallet app to work. I keep my iphone with minimal service mainly to still have tap to pay and do facetime with my book club.
I've tried two things. The free version is, I've stuck a card which supports tap to pay inside my phone case. Big brain time, I know, but it actually works reasonably well. Many modern card phone cases now put shielding in (they didn't used to), which on one level I appreciate, but it limits its utility in this particular use case. I haven't tried one of the current cases to see if the shielding can be easily removed. A thin, flat card with etched/printed numbers is better than one with stamped/raised numbers.
Beyond that, I've been quite happy with Garmin Pay. The watch itself doesn't have a mic or LTE radio, I leave it on airplane mode the vast majority of the time, and it works without the phone nearby. As privacy-hostile-device privacy policies go, Garmin has one of the less offensive ones. I run the Garmin apps in the Owner profile's private space.
I've never had it not work for payment in years of using it, and in fact, at one one payment kiosk I tried to use Apple Pay for a particular large purchase when it made sense to, the kiosk refused repeatedly, but then accepted Garmin Pay.
Their lowest-end devices still don't support it, but I think you can get into it for an MSRP of about $250, and they tend to discount at all of the predictable times. Also, eBay.
Re: FaceTime, there's a way to do it from Android if you're invited (I don't think you can initiate it), but I haven't messed with it in years. See if you can get a good privacy book for normies on the agenda and suggest moving to Signal during the discussion.
I have a Garmin watch, but my banks don't support it for tap to pay. I can add cards to Garmin wallet, but not to my watch.
That's a shame. Have you tried raising it with them at some significant level?
For any others wondering, here's the list of participating banks: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garminpay/banks/
I got a new Pixel 10 Pro a few months ago and immediately installed GrapheneOS. It's all been good, but I can no longer use Strava on that phone and I'm looking for a Strava replacement.
As far as tap-to-pay goes, I still carry around a few credit cards with RFID chips, which I trust more than any mobile payment method.
I have a Pixel 7 Pro and I've been considering reflashing with GrapheneOS. I bought a Garmin watch which does tap-to-pay to deal with the loss of that feature.
How is the camera on GrapheneOS compared to the stock Pixel 10? Do your banking apps work without playing cat-and-mouse games?
Default camera app is decent and has imo all the basic necessities. You could obviously install the Google camera app and use that if you're after the software features like AI enhancement etc.
Got 3 banking apps (Europe) and they work without a hitch or complaint since installing over 3 years ago. I still use physical cards though so tap-to-pay is a no but I was never interested in that.
You can install google's camera app if you want, and it works exactly the same.
I also use a garmin and haven't bothered with banking apps (all banks have a website and I avoid closed source software when I can), but it looks like quite a few are supported: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
I have a garmin but my banks don't suppose it for tap.
There are a few settings you have to adjust for the camera to be any good. I thought it was trash until this weekend when I found the settings. The default has quality at 95% and has "highest photo resolution" toggled off. The stock camera app doesn't seem to let you set the resolution specifically.
I use Varo and Sofi. Both apps work on my phone. The only app I have had a specific problem with was the MyQ app, but there is a workaround for that one.
I added a ratgdo to my garage door opener and use that with Home Assistant (and wireguard to my phone) instead of MyQ, so that wouldn't be a problem.
It's probably worth doing, but I have about three and a half years of data / setup on my phone and I'd have to wipe that all out. I wouldn't permanently lose data, but I did spend a good amount of time setting up my home screen, etc. It's a big leap! :-)
Is your battery life better?
I haven't noticed the battery life being bad or good. So I guess it is fine. My other phone is an iphone 17 pro max. I feel like the battery degrades at about the same rate on both phones, but I use the pixel more.
place your debit card on the backside of your phone via a case pocket. a lot of cards these days support tap to pay.
If you use a case you could put a card behind your phone. I still use google wallet for various cards, just not tap-to-pay.
Similar experience, so i just use my garmin watch to pay. Similar compatibility as google pay, but since it runs entirely on the watch it does not check against play integrity.
I find it hard to believe that you'd carry two devices with you just to pay, why not carry a card with your pixel?
I do have the cards in my purse, but I like the convenience of having it on my phone. I'll eventually leave the iphone behind though.
You don't want tap-to-pay to work because tap-to-pay requires a bunch of proprietary shitware in order for banks to trust it. It's basically like saying Netflix won't work because of Widevine DRM. Just tap your actual bank card, it's more secure anyway. Or your other, non-secure phone.
> You don't want tap-to-pay to work
Stop doing this. Yes, I want tap-to-pay to work. I don't want to be told I don't want that; I want it to work without the proprietary attestation garbage.
Paypal works for payment, at least in Germany
I do have to say that if you're interested in privacy, tap to pay or even a credit card is the opposite of that. Cash would be the way to go for private transactions.
Threat modelling, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, etc. What are you defending, and from who? You have to consider that.
For real though just bring your actual card instead of trying to load it onto your phone. Why give Apple and Google your card's private key?
Because it's graphine and the entire point is that google is not involved in any transaction between you and your banking app.
Why Cape instead of Phreeli?
As honeypots go (I'm only joking, well, half-joking), Cape's pretty great on a lot of levels.
I'm glad Cape has competition and hope Phreeli succeeds, but the time when I'd happily contribute to anything he starts is long gone. The substantial credibility he genuinely earned has finally been fully spent, at least for me, but I do hope it becomes a viable option.
I appreciate this joke :)
John CEO of Cape
Half-appreciated it, I hope.
Is there any hope of Verizon's network being added to your coverage? I spend a lot of time in pretty remote places and Cape's coverage is up there with its pricing in terms of being a major barrier to retention.
Cape has SIM swap protection and IMSI rotation. As far as I know, Phreeli doesn't. Phreelie just promises not to collect, use or sell your data but doesn't seem to have any actual privacy tools like Cape does.
Any thoughts on silent.link ? It seems a little slow but otherwise fine.
I always found it funny that the first step of leaving the Google smartphone ecosystem is to buy a Google phone
It is the worst part of it. The good thing is there are $500 models offered which minimizes how much money you have to send to google.
Same here. This situation is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous that I don't know how anybody takes GrapheneOS seriously. I mean, let's say I wanted to buy a big airplane but I don't like Boeing. Airbus looks pretty good and they invite me to their factory to pick out a plane. But then they insist I fly to their factory on a Boeing plane. I'd assume they were joking, and then they say "Really, we're serious."
No Airbus for me I guess.
You can always buy an used Pixel. GOS only supports phones with hardware that they deem secure enough, and Google is currently the only manufacturer that makes phones that match their requirements[1], with upcoming Motorola phones that also support or even come with GOS installed coming out next year. I find this point so obvious that I can't understand people making comments like "can't take them seriously": you make security/privacy OS, having insecure hardware that compromises the whole project would simply not make any sense. Ask other manufacturers to do better.
1: https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
Just waiting for the Motorolas that will have first party graphene os support.
That's the only thing that will make me change my phone from 2019 still on life support thanks to custom roms
Here's hoping Pixel releases a flip phone 11 and Graphene support follows.
The Motorola razr has crease issues that they seem to want to ignore and Samsung has locked down their phones so root is impractical.
> Motorola razr has crease issues that they seem to want to ignore
Details please?
I would if I could even use their OS. Pixel phones are not available in my country and to import them is to pay 3x the amount I would spend on another phone.
The OS isn’t compatible with hardware without basic security features.
Build it yourself for other phones if you want to have a security-focused OS without most of the security.
Current/Relevant GrapheneOS discussion:
GrapheneOS Defends Data-Wiping Function That Blocked US Border Search
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49085236
US Government targets Cop City protester over phone operating system
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49024436
If I donate, can we get the Lineage keyboard with all the symbols in the same places?
I'd actually love to have the Holo keyboard back. That was my favorite.
Why not sell phones?
This is surely the closest to a solution we have, IMO. An alternative to the Android-iOS duopoly that involves futzing with cables and command lines is never going to go mainstream. By contrast, a vertically integrated FOSS(ish) hardware-software stack might eventually get to 5% market share, like desktop Linux. At which point companies and governments will be forced to take software freedom slightly more seriously. That's my optimistic take.
> An alternative to the Android-iOS duopoly that involves futzing with cables and command lines is never going to go mainstream
All you need to install graphene is a web browser and USB cable.
> By contrast, a vertically integrated FOSS(ish) hardware-software stack might eventually get to 5% market share, like desktop Linux
Those exists. They've never gained traction. If you think graphene is too much tinkering, you'll be traumatised by that landscape.
>All you need to install graphene is a web browser and USB cable.
Outside a section of the Western middle class, ordinary people in 2026 only own one computer and it's in their pocket.
You can install GOS via another Android phone...
Motorola will be releasing phones compatible with GrapheneOS, though it's unclear if they will ship with GrapheneOS.
https://proxysto.re/en/ sells GrapheneOS phones, with worldwide shipping I believe. They do donate a portion of every sale to GrapheneOS. However, you're recommended to install GrapheneOS yourself and not buy it from someone else, so that you know it hasn't been tampered with.
Because that would require a massive network and additional legal liabilities.
Partnering with Motorola seems to be the best bet.
Motorola... which used to be owned by Google (naturally).
They could partner with Fairphone and each can bring their complementary competencies.
:) nice, topical
They start their list with "GitHub Sponsors (credit card)", then list five cryptocurrencies (Bitcoin, Monero, Zcash, Ethereum, Cardano, Litecoin), two of which have "We aren't looking for donations of tokens, only Ethereum [resp. Cardano] itself." Then Wise Quick Pay, then Local Bank Transfer (providing the Wise bank details for Belgium, UK, US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hungary, and Turkey), then PayPal (in CAD, USD, EUR, GBP – pointing out the PayPal fee), and finally Interac e-Transfer. I wonder whether there's a reason for this order?
Also, PayPal's fee, as described, is fairly steep:
> PayPal charges a base fee of 30 cents and 2.9% of the donation amount within Canada. There's an additional 0.8% fee for donations from the US and 1% for other countries. Currency conversion adds an additional 4% fee as opposed to the usual PayPal conversion fee of 3%.
Maybe they're listing in increasing order of payment processor fees?
Can't be, because bank transfers are free in much of the world, and cryptocurrencies all(?) have a transaction fee.
Or it's just in no particular order
GrapheneOS looks pretty solid alas ios has the apps I prefer.
Meh… would rather do /e/ or PostmarketOS…
GrapheneOS, for all intents and purposes, still heavily promotes Google and it's services (and no, "sandboxing" is not the solution if you still have to rely on that crap). And they would probably still happy force everyone to buy Google hardware (Pixel) if it weren't for middle-finger from said Google (lack of drivers tree…)
You don't have to install Google Play Services at all. If you have to install it anyway, then Graphene's implementation seems a lot more mature than microG or any other solution out there for /e/ OS.