I did some tests. I found it interesting that in the reasoning content the model identifies itself as Kimi by moonshot and sometimes it assumes ChatGPT as identity. Then sometimes it references the need to be approved by "the evaluator", other times it references global system guidelines / moonshot guidelines, and something about an phantom instruction line being "you are an assistant responding in an API" or something like that.
GPT reasoning content is encrypted if it was re-routed you would have nothing to see here but that won't stop idiotic American conspiracy theories to spread I see.
Fascinating that we’re converging on AI safety and alignment in time across jurisdictions. The cybersecurity approach taken here is interesting because should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough.
The slow warming of the water is a good approach. I’ve been using abliteration.ai’s cybersecurity models to pentest my own software and it produces much more usable defensive results. Opus 5.5 can fix everything but the guardrails trigger too easily.
The Fable ban affair was a nightmare for defensive cybersecurity. As far as I’m concerned we’re already in the world of Void Star and Cloudbreaker is here.
if you want to save some $ you can start with abliteration and after few turns switch to normal glm5.3 for example from z.ai subscription or other source. I didn't test it yet with deepseek, but I'm assuming it will will work the same.
those models will follow your request when they already agreed to do this
deepseek tends to quickly assume this is benchmark and even when have web access thinks things like "simulated internet" etc (but waste tokens on thinking if there could be way to cheat)
> should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough
This is the only AI-safe approach - see the OpenAI agent swarm incident where the swarm engaged in offensive cyber because guardrails were not active for their task and the model had clearly been post-trained on that narrow domain.
Does this make sense? It is the same as when Stable Diffusion tried to not have "people laying down" in their training data in order to block the generation of sex pictures.
Deliberately keeping all models ignorant doesn't make sense. It won't work (whoever breaks the pact has a massive advantage); it won't be enforceable; it will have downstream impacts on things you don't want it to be ignorant about; this kind of regulatory regime invites adding more and more to the "no-no list".
Is it not possible to focus on hardening? And on new legal liabilities for operators who do security attacks?
The difference is that it’s not subtracting an otherwise present part of training, it’s choosing not to continue to push it with RLVR. Models become capable like this when they are specifically tuned to be good at cyber tasks, so without the RLVR (Reinforcement Learning w/ Verifiable Rewards) they never pick up this level of aptitude.
I agree that it’s not obviously sustainable, but it’s better than specifically training these tools to be good at wreaking havoc, and then putting on a shocked pikachu face when they wreak havoc (ahem, Sam Altman).
There is a ton of questions to ask regarding their removal of cybersecurity data.
First, how much “cybersecurity data” is just standard software knowledge that one can derive cyber security exploits from?
Did they also get rid of all references to hacking in general?
Are they implying that all the recent exploits are just things that were already in the data?
For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
If you're an amazing, top 1% software engineer, and you switch jobs to become a penetration tester, you're not going to be top 1% day one. There's knowledge specific to penetration testing you'll need to research and absorb and practice before you're good.
For the models, it's always day one. They don't learn from experience. Whatever they know after training is all they'll ever know. So if you don't teach them penetration testing in training, they won't know it. Maybe they could theoretically derive everything from first principles, and so could a top 1% software engineer, but that's a very slow and inefficient way to do things.
I have essentially no knowledge in this field, but another concern may be that if the model has minimal cybersecurity knowledge, it may also implement insecure systems as a side effect.
> For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
You'd be surprised. Cyber offense is a very narrow domain, especially given the extensive mitigations that are being used in modern systems. Leaving it out of post-training tasks unless you're specifically interested in it is the no-brainer approach.
Perhaps the gap is just too wide, but to use a more simple analogy. I see this like someone knowing everything about biology, simple mechanics, metallurgy, and human history but never hearing about an axe then assuming that person would never come up with the concept, use case of, or means to create an axe.
What confuses me about this analogy is that it seems to imply this is a matter of a knowledge-base and logical inferences. But the whole reason why LLMs are so successful is that the logical approach was abandoned in favor of a statistical one (and huge amounts of data, compute, and weights). The argument is precisely, that what is not in the training does not find its way into the probability distribution. To claim that LLMs reason is a very far stretch that I don't feel comfortable to let pass.
Will there be a book of secret knowledge that only the initiated will be allowed to see? And they will all swear an oath to never input it into an AI system?
And then we'd also do that for all kinds of potential terrorism, sex-crimes, political subversion, and evil advocacy?
It would be the "restricted section" like in the Hogwarts library?
Post-training is not about "secret knowledge": it's literally about training the model in a RL environment on very specific tasks (including, potentially, cyber exploitation). It's just as compute-intensive as pre-training these days, if not more (given that several checkpoints of the same pre-trained model are being released, showing sizeable gains in real-world capabilities for non-trivial productivity tasks).
I’d be curious to know why you feel like that. For me, it’s the opposite. In the sonnet version, the game takes up a much larger percent of the viewport and the ability to swipe to control the Pac-Man is leagues about the small directional arrow buttons IMO.
I bought a yearly subscription to kimi when it was the hype and never use it. The 5h limit makes it completely unusable. You barely start doing anything and you hit the limit immediately. I advise everyone against using kimi.
same. bought the annual plan, second largest one, in around February to lock in the price. well, what did they do, cut quota by 80% when K2.7 launched and then even further when K3 and K3.1 launched.
I had the lowest plan ($20/month I think) and it literally gave me fifteen, maybe twenty minutes tops, using the cheaper K3-256K variant. Basically enough to fill the context about 1.2x and that was it.
It's a really smart model but way too expensive. The same $20 goes 100x further with Claude. I used it for the initial task planning while the plan didn't expire, then handed off to DeepSeek or Minimax.
Same plan, just asked it to review a repo that Fable has been helping out with (max plan, haven't run out of the hourly or weekly limit once yet, and I use the same sub on multiple projects at once). Kimi didn't even finish the scan, ran out of the 5hr budget in less than 10 minutes. Unusable, unfortunately.
I've tried a few, best so far: DeepSeek API credits.
- OpenCode Go $10: I feel like most of the models are lower quality than directly from the provider. If you ignore my "vibes": the value is very good for e.g. DeepSeek 4.1 Flash (not sure if they're serving 1017 yet), GLM 5.3 Flash, Qwen3.8 Flash and Claude Haiku 5.5.
- Z.AI: Tried the $18/month plan and was disappointed by the usage limits. Even with GLM 5.3 Flash I ran into the 5h limit pretty quickly.
- OpenAI: I tried the $20 plan and $100 plan. $20 ran into 5h limits very quickly with anything other than Luna models. $100 felt like pretty good value for GPT 6.1 Sol, but as others frequently repeat: it's probably heavily subsidized and won't be around forever.
- DeepSeek API credits: I can let a single agent run all day (and not worry about keeping the context small) and am usually around $1 usage for the day. Flash 4.1 1017 is also a very good model IMO. For the stuff I've used it with it hasn't felt any worse than GPT 6.1 Sol. The benefit of API credits is also that they don't expire at the end of the month (like unused subscription usage).
- I haven't tried any of Anthropic's subs, but my guess is you can get a lot of Claude Haiku 5.5 usage out of the $20 plan which is definitely a good model. I'm just not a huge fan of Anthropic or Claude Code, so I haven't tried it.
That is surprising. I had a $200 sub when K3 came out and at the time there was no 5h limit, making the subscription really good for running 4-5 big tasks each month.
As tribute, I bit the bullet on the $40 plan to test out K3.1 Pro.
Still burning through the 5-hour rate limit way too quickly, though. Output quality seems solid enough, but the value will probably make a lot more sense via API pricing for smaller projects.
My current tier list based on what I’ve been testing:
1. Opus 5.5
2. Astra
3. Argon
4. Kimi K3.1 Pro
(For lightweight/daily driver tasks, Gemini Flash 3.8, DeepSeek Flash, and Luna are still up there as favorites.)
In my experience, the difference between your 1 & 2, and your 2 & 3 are huge, and I don't find Argon to be usable for any big tasks because it really does a big mess every now and then (which Astra also does but much less frequently and not in a "I just implemented something else with unusable code" way), and Placing Kimi after it seems like a very low evaluation.
If the scores on Artificial Analysis really do mean that this model is better than GPT-6 Astra and Fable 5.1, that means that China is more like 6 weeks behind the US in frontier capabilities rather than 6 months. Which means that the US lead is all but gone.
You can see in this discussions the goalposts being actively moved to desperately create a notion that the lead is still there.
You even see people in this thread referring to imaginary wonder models that they expect US companies to have under development that are supposedly leaps and bounds more impressive, albeit the only reference there is to their existence is the commenters hopes and dreams.
I think people need to realize that there is no longer a cutting edge company that is expected to dominate, and among the multitude of AI companies in the field competition is so tight that no one would even be surprised if tomorrow some other company far away from the US was able to crank out the top performing model, or something like a small local model that outperforms mid/high tier frontier models. The local model alone would be a death sentence to US companies, who are still burning through 10x their revenue.
People thought the models are getting more intelligent via better architectures but all that really happened is that tool calling became a first class feature that every model is expected to support and RL training with coding harnesses became the standard.
Two years ago, tool calling was always considered an extra feature on top that some models where good at while other models completely ignored tool calling.
Meanwhile the discourse about how intelligent these models have become and how this is a major step or shift in model intelligence would make you believe that these models suddenly have a more powerful architecture when in practice model optimization has lead to faster but less expressive models that are still more intelligent, meaning that the model architectures didn't really experience meaningful shifts, it's that the training methods had a massive shift away from supervised training which inherently constrains the models.
The AI labs don't have a monopoly on the outcomes of RL training because RL is significantly less dependent on private data. Data helps massively for bootstrapping, but beyond post training, it's up to the model itself and every AI lab has a model so it is much harder to differentiate between your competitor if the RL training environments are the same (I specifically mean coding harnesses and Linux command line tools) because the environment here is the source of the "synthetic" data and everyone has equal access to it.
Why would they not release those models, since it would help them become profitable and beat the competition becoming the one company rule them all? Oh yeah, they are so dangerous. Well Anthropic revenue comes from only few big corporate customers, so just make them Golden Partners etc. and give them access to super-models. I doubt Google and Meta wants to crack web security.
Besides, if we start imagining super models US companies have in secret, why would we expect Chinese companies have them? Why would not Moonshot have their own super intelligence hidden in the cellar?
Vertical integration. They want to control all sectors, that's why OpenAI and Anthropic are slowly rolling out solutions for law, medicine, design and so on.
Don't be snarky. This is very well known, including by public disclosures by the labs themselves, along with countless reliable testimonies by people who would know. It's actually a huge governance problem we're yet to solve.
> Open-weight principles. These evaluations frame our open-weight release decision. First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights. We believe making K3.1 Pro available in a non-discriminatory way benefits people who need dual-use capabilities for defensive purposes. When a capable model is open and runs on infrastructure its users control, many more teams gain the means to audit the code they maintain — including legacy systems that rarely receive dedicated security reviews. We believe that letting this capability diffuse gradually — rather than concentrating it in a few proprietary systems — ultimately makes all software more secure.
I don't think Chinese labs are behind at all. I think the tell is that they keep releasing models 2 weeks after new American proprietary models that match or beat them. Suggesting they're sitting on much higher capabilities and releasing just enough to undercut
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
This is 100M fewer than Opus 5.5, 40M fewer than Fable 5.1, and about a third of Sonnet 5.5. In the top-6, it's 3rd, beaten by Muse Wonder at 140M and Astra at, impressively, just 60M.
That's versus Opus 5.5 max effort, no? Opus high has the closest cost and intelligence characteristics and generates far fewer output tokens per task than the one Kimi 3.1 Pro effort level we have data for.
Yes, max effort is what the displayed-by-default score on the index is measured by. At xhigh, Opus 5.5 outputs 100M tokens, but remains only 1 point ahead of K3.1 rather than 5. And Sonnet at xhigh outputs 110M tokens and trails K3.1 by 3 points rather than leading by 3, at the same price point per mtok.
Opus 5.5 high trails K3.1 by 1 point, but outputs only 53M tokens, so it indeed comes out cheaper per-task. I think it's still remarkable that this is effectively an open model that matches the frontier for the first time in a long time, pretty much since DeepSeek R1.
It's true if you pay API prices overall, it's just that the OpenAI/Anthropic subscriptions provide way better value than their respective APIs, and that isn't true with the Kimi sub.
I don't trust these Artificial Analysis indexes and I'm not sure why anyone considers them authoritative, the site just sprung up a few months ago and now everyone quotes it?
From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
They are the only site that really combines all benchmarks into a single place. And their intelligence index is pretty broad, including knowledge work and finance tasks as well as coding, so if your use case is narrow it may not match the general benchmarks
Do you have an alternative? Its a benchmark collection. When a benchmark gets saturated, they remove it from the index and add new ones.
I think lm-arena is a better concept that reflects the actual target users, but it only captures chat, and relies on users spending their time improving it.
https://epoch.ai/eci?view=graph&tab=release-date is at least an alternative. They are slower to update, but entirely anecdotally I find the numbers are aligned with my personal observations a bit better than AA. But I am also highly aware this is some pretty confirmation-bias heavy ares of meta-benchmark picking...
If we ignore the older releases (sonnet 5, etc that exist in that one) and the new models epoch has not benchmarked, we end up with the same order within the noise brackets as in ArtificialAnalysis.
I do trust epoch more than AA due to capital incentives, but in this case I don't think like there is a difference
It's appealing to me because it's not just one benchmark but a summary of a collection of benchmarks. Also the current rankings have Opus on top by far and everyone's experience is that Opus is best by far so it's not massively inaccurate
> From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
It's fine if you don't trust them. You are free to put together your own benchmarks, run your own tests across models, and objectively compare results.
That's how you gathered your data to support your claim other benchmarks are totally inaccurate, right? Right?
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
So their base price is 1/5th of Opus 5.5 per token, but if you want "highspeed" it's 2x that and then I guess it generates 2x the number of tokens as well?
That might suggest that Opus is competitively priced after all.
In an agentic pipeline, the output text is 2-5% of the total tokens used, so verbosity is a nonissue costwise. Although, higher verbosity could cause input to balloon faster and potentially cost more, but that would be captured by the cost-per-task metric.
But as noted by other replies, it's still lower than Opus/Sonnet.
If you are expecting any sort of usable limits on their subscription plan I suggest adjusting your expectations. I subscribed to $99 a month plan and within 47 minutes with one session (not asking for swarms or anything) was limited by 5-hour quota.
Same experience. I had the $19 monthly plan for experimenting and running benchmarks, but it was a uselessly small amount of usage, a single task would blast through the whole five hour limit and a big chunk of the weekly limit. All of the US provider plans are remarkably more generous (though OpenAI plans have gotten a lot stingier lately, where they used to be the most generous).
I have been using DS Flash 4.1 pretty heavily. It runs for hours and hours and is pretty cheap.
I realized the other day that I had a $30 a month Claude subscription. So, I fired it up all excited and tried Opus 5.5 on a codebase I was already in with DS. After about 30 minutes I hit a 5 hour limit. The next day I tried again and the same thing happened. And it felt much slower to boot. I was super disappointed.
Did you use Fable, set Opus 5.5 to xhigh, or use 'ultracode' / workflows? That's the only way this will happen.
In my experience a single 5 hour allowance in the 20eur Claude plan equals about $5-10 in Deepseek 4.1 Flash API usage. DS is a lot more token hungry and takes 3x-4x longer. The subscription is way cheaper, probably around $200/month worth of DS, just stick to Opus low and Sonnet for most tasks.
DS 4.1 is basically endless, even if you paid for APIs you will hardly touch some prices.
But it's slow.
I don't think I can any longer appreciate any major difference in "intelligence" between models for most tasks but Opus is consistently much faster than competitors at finishing tasks and keeping me in the loop.
Of course excluding ultra code, the you will wait 50 minutes for a minor refactor.
Yeah, the $20 Claude plan is stingier than one might like, but not as stingy as Kimi. I think the best $20 subscription deal these days is probably from Google, now that Gemini 4 Argon exists and is an acceptably high quality model for coding. It's got quite generous usage and includes some other Google account upgrades (though I know some people don't use their regular account for Google AI for fear of account suspension or whatever, so the extra storage and other account upgrades are not a useful thing). I can use it pretty heavily without ever running into caps. The $20 ChatGPT plan used to be similarly generous, but no more.
When I've most recently done the same tasks across multiple providers I have a subscription to, I found the order of generosity of them was something like Gemini->Claude->ChatGPT->Kimi. OpenAI used to be a lot more generous than all of them, but that ended recently, and now it's quite stingy in the $20 plan. What competitive model has a more generous subscription than Gemini?
I have a DeepSeek account and almost always use it when I need something with API access. I consider it Good Enough™, if not competitive. I also have a MiMo token plan, though that's weird in that it's not a monthly subscription, it's just a bulk buy of tokens that expire after a year, but still seems to be a pretty good deal on a pretty good model.
That's surprising, I had the exact same experience as GP. I dropped my Kimi sub this month, but I'm keeping claude because I can use Opus 4.8 basically endlessly. Even Opus 5.5 doesn't drain the usage that much, though I rarely use it because it refuses to do anything cyber-related.
It is a LOT more efficient on claude code. Takes forever to run out of credits, and a whole lot of useful code gets generated. The web Ui reconstructs code while claude code just tweaks it.
How long ago was this? The amount of usage they give you for a given plan seems to change over time, and the Claude limits seem to be more favourable recently.
Welp, that ruins this news for me. I'm glad open models are catching up but if I can't practically run them locally _or_ through a flat fee then it doesn't really help me. I fear API pricing.
This'll end up on opencode go soon enough. $40/month on there gives you a bit more than just "light use"
Don't use frontier models like this for problems that can be solved with flash models, and you'll see API pricing isn't that terrible. Still cheaper than anything with remotely this level of capability 2.5 months ago.
Had a similar experience here. Their limits are very, very low, and ultimately make it not worth subscribing. Can't leverage a good modal if it exhausts its 5-hour budget in 30 minutes.
Paying API prices for Deepseek 4.1 Flash feels like a much better deal at the moment.
How? I've been running k3.1 Pro with K2.8 preview for codegen (subagents) and I've only used 22% of my weekly and it's been running for 8 hours on a RE project.
Are you using k3 with thinking set to the absolute highest and only using k3 for everything?
Yeah, the plan is far too expensive for what it provides. I wonder if the quota with these new models will be better, but I'll wait for others to try this out before wasting another hundred bucks.
Yes, if you just look at API pricing, the cost is about on par with its capabilities. The problem is that we all use subscriptions, and when you compare subscription pricing, Kimi is much pricier than pretty much all of their competitors, including Chinese ones.
Honestly, use Pi, start the session with K3, design it, store the design + chat history + todo with phases + why + readme then when you are at the time to build do `/model` select deepseek and let it rip!!
You can even make a Pi extension to let it switch models on its own, then tell it to switch to one or the other for a given task. It's not perfect, but it is pretty reliable once you have the instructions dialed in.
I have mine configured to use a "thinker" model for planning and decision making, and a "doer" model for the easy stuff (digging around the repo, writing code based on the thinker's instructions, etc.).
I run a similar setup, just with different models. I also use herdr, which lets me have the same project worked on side by side by different models, each in its own git worktree.
since openAI and Anthropic are public about their anti-distillation mechanism, its either their anti-distillation doesn't work or kimi got here because their own training and RLs. Which one is it?
I feel kimi k3 was always 1 step ahead of deepseek, which always made it a good planner model at $30 and then i hand over to deepseek for dev work. I recently signed up for the $99, and it did last significally longer (x5?) but as long as you dont blast it too much in the 5h limit it works great. deepseek even with the newest prices is still leeeeeeps ahead in cost /benefit.
I really like K3, I still regularly consult it alongside Astra and Opus/Fable.
It is spiky in different places than them and can be surprising in things it gets or catches they don't or don't in the same way. And it has a default personality that I like.
In looking into what Anthropic has accused the Chinese AI companies of, "distillation" is not the crux of the matter: they accuse them of the use of massive numbers of breached computers and credit cards. Supposedly (though not explicitly demonstrated) distillation campaigns used "dark web" resources (like stolen and faked credit cards and p0wned IOT devices, routers, etc) that were used to create many many accounts for distillation. (Note: I am generally in favor of distillation - it is "normal" use as far as I can see.)
So there are these "resources" out there: massive botnets, stolen credit cards and credentials, etc. These often seem to be linked to or supported by state actors.
How can we hope that these "standing reserves" aren't used generally by AIs as if they are just another "skill" they know how to leverage?
I imagine that Chinese AI labs would be more than happy to pay for tokens to train on. If Anthropic goes and bans them as quickly as it can identify to them, of course they'll shift to using lots of cheaply obtained sockpuppets to keep getting the same data.
I doubt that an AI could do anything with these that legions of scammers haven't already figured out how to do - after all, it's not like AI set up this distillation setup in the first place :)
From my POV it looks like you guys tried "They're distilling us! Very immoral!", saw that and nobody cares, and now you're trying to run the more emotionally impactful "They're distilling us... with your grandma's stolen credit card! They're stealing from your grandma!!"
Why do we believe all of this without a shred of actual proof. Breached computers and stolen cards is straight up crime, you'd think that there would be a lawsuit or two then.
Also, this is exactly what one would do if they wanted to resell cheap tokens in places where US AI companies don't do business, whether or not there is distillation as an added bonus revenue stream.
Hardening against what? Apologies if I am being dense here.
The way I see it, automated systems should basicially have access to the financial system anyways. This is some of the appeal of cryptocurrency.
Sybil resistance built into the traditional financial system (for example firewalling based on residential IP, requiring banking apps, etc.) is a massive annoyance that can obviously by circumvented at scale.
You think it is a lost cause to get credit cards, for example, less steal-able? Apparently there is a way to create fake cards that work for a few minutes, and stolen cards can be used. A lot of the current security is inelegant and lame. Could data-breech laws not light a fire under some company's asses?
I think the solution is a system like cryptocurrency to where the responsibility, liability, custody, and capability to defend oneself lies in the end user.
It doesn't even need to be decentralized: GNU Taler is one example that gets posted here a lot.
Any attempt to retrofit the old system of banking will only make it harder to replace by a system with better underlying assumptions.
I don't think older/busier people who regularly fall prey to scams even in the current system would be thrilled to assume more responsibility for their financial safety.
Hardening in this case could mean biometrics, or it could mean rethinking the trust model so that controlling an army of duplicates confers no advantage because you have to be trusted in order to do any damage anyhow. Containing multitudes buys you nothing.
I hope we chose the latter. Biometrics are creepy.
Color me naive but I can’t believe that approach works at any reasonable scale. Any meaningful token spend at distillation scale would be raising alarm bells at all the cc issuers.
DeepSeek R1 and DeepSeekMath were groundbreaking models which were substantially stronger than any models available for distillation at the time they were developed. The Chinese labs have advantages as well despite the lack of compute, too.
I'm anti-Anthropic and think their accusations are total PR FUD-packing. They don't focus much on the cc fraud because their PR firm landed on pushing the (tech-sounding) word "distillation" to try to scare people in the US and to try to make it a geopolitical issue where trade negotiators can put pressure. The Chinese companies see an advantage in being "open" right now, and it is working. They will not stay open once they see an advantage there. (Contrast with GNU.)
But I've slowly come to realize that AI+"dark resources"(scare quotes)=something bad! And this is imminent (maybe I'm naive and it is already ubiquitous).
We see here, with Kimi, that there's growing traction with the idea of eliminating types of training to avoid evil. I'm skeptical of that.
lol. Have you? What kind of distill you are talking about? It’s only effective in the surface, small scale model or output preference. Not useful for long reasoning chain.
No, technically speaking, because you are constrained by hardware. But there are many that definitely aren't as good yet still usable for many tasks, such as Qwen 3.8 27 B (and soon the Qwen 4 series too), Gemma for writing and roleplaying, etc.
> First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights.
So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
> So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
Yeah, there's another paragraph:
> Identifying and removing cyber-related data. During development, we observed vulnerability research performance improving steadily as post-training scaled. Tracing the source of this trend, we found that cyber-related content was embedded within the general mid-training corpus, and cyber-related tasks were present in the RL environment mix — a natural byproduct of training on broad data. In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
(emphasis mine)
It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now. But it's also clear that RL works on it, because it's highly verifiable. So smaller models are going to become very interesting, because they can be fine-tuned later to cover this field.
> Prohibited: high-performance detection technologies used to counter cross-border data transmission security risks, including deep-synthesis forgery detection (266401J); AI cyber offensive capability technologies, such as malicious code generation and mutation, automated mass generation and distributed large-scale deployment of anti-detection variants (266402J); large models trained using China’s Core Data (266501J); and high-performance AI agents designed for highly sensitive scenarios, such as critical information infrastructure, national defense and core government affairs (266502J).
> It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now.
And that's why we need models that understand "cyber" or application and data security. The offensive models are powerful, and they are in the hands of script kiddies now. The models writing our software and designing our cloud infrastructure had better understand these issues as well, just to avoid coding in vulnerabilities.
I think this is misguided. Considering how much code is AI written these days do we really want LLMs writing insecure code because we lobotomised them?
Which is a great example of what makes him dangerous: with the exception of Sam Altman he's arguably the single person most responsible for the current capabilities arms race.
Anthropic has pushed the frontier harder and faster than OpenAI or anyone else in the last few years. Beginning with Anthropic's founding to quickly raise huge amounts of cash with a pitch to investors to rapidly leapfrog ChatGPT in scale, and culminating with Mythos/Fable which carved out a whole new tier of super models.
He's always talked big about Anthropic prioritising safety and their "Responsible Scaling" but his words just simply don't align with reality while they keep going bigger, faster, until only OpenAI could briefly and half-heartedly claim near parity at the top (while cutting corners in safety because the existential threat to their market position is far more pressing to any corporation than some abstract risk for humanity).
Whether it's wilful cognitive dissonance, cynical opportunism, financial greed or something else, that kind of self-assured moral superiority paired with his real world record of self-interested decision making for Anthropic's market position is a big red flag.
>I hope the Chinese companies (and I say this as a patriotic American) slay these two companies and destroy their moats.
China cares about about stability way more than the US even, they aren't going to be big on AI models upsetting the governments power, and mass cyber attacks could do that.
At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it. Worse if you start making and releasing your own dangerous models the 4chan party van is going to visit you.
> At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it.
Your thinking is dangerous. Do you work for Anthropic?
AI is dangerous when these powers are being hobbled up by the select few. These systems threaten to put us all out of work. I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods, scraping up our earnings potentials, then seeking to muzzle us and put us in jails with no rights.
I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
>I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Then you better get your torches out now.
>I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods
Don't worry, governments are fervently working on AI drones to take away your life when you get really upset about this. Oh, and they are also working at AI to detect when you write all this online, and track you down then monitor you on things like flock cameras. As they say, you'll be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes, I likely will be beside you for being too subversive.
>AI is dangerous when
Incorrect, AI is just dangerous. It doesn't matter who has it. The more powerful it becomes the more dangerous it gets. So, as you can tell I am an AI doomer.
----
Now, don't get me wrong, I want freedom for me, I want freedom for other people. I do not believe the technologies we're developing are conductive to having any freedom at all. Hell, if we're lucky we'll be slaves instead of all of us dead, including the select few.
>Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
Lol, now this is kind of funny. "I want freedom to think whatever I want, but you, you shouldn't think like that!". Careful or you'll max out your irony meter. Anyway, "My kind of thinking" is just next ____ prediction. I see what is happening in the world around us, and based on the shape of that probability I see what is going to happen. No, you and I are not getting unlimited AI to do whatever we want. Yes, governments are going to lock down the shit out of AI for end users. Yes, governments are going to declare advanced LLMs munitions.
Balls in your court, better think of what your next move is.
Sam, I'll grant you, is probably among the top 10 most dangerous, but Dario? The only thing he's done to piss people off is to predict, correctly, that releasing too-powerful models too-quickly would cause havoc and chaos. This prediction actively hurts his company! It actively harms his chances of a huge exit! It actively raises the probability that Anthropic and OpenAI get nationalized and treated in the same way as, for instance, the nuclear program!
By comparison, do you think the Chinese models are going to be trained in such a manner that you enjoy the society that results? What makes you think that?
It’s not much of a deterrent to a motivated organization.
They are basically saying that models themselves are already capable. If you fine tune them with some cyber security tasks, that should make them potent. :-/
There is no deterrent to a motivated and well resources organization. Post training a model in general, let alone just for offensive cybersecurity, is well within the technical and financial capabilities of many cyber criminals. There's just no way out of that.
The "rule" here is, if you read the disclosure carefully, that they have cyber trained models in house. But you do not get them, you only get the non-cyber models.
With frontier competitors and the U.S. govt actively pushing "concerns" about Chinese models, Kimi including this statement on "offensive cyber capability" seems like smart defense. Models are opaque and training details are trade secrets, so whatever they did might be negligible or significant and no one can tell. This bit is also artfully done:
> "below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models."
Like Ant and OAI, they've realized vaguely claiming to have nerfed their latest model to an unspecified degree not only looks 'good guy' prudent, it provides a built-in excuse when a model fails.
Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records. I will increasingly show faster times though.
> Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records.
The benchmarks show Kimi K3.1 Pro outrunning practically all models. It's weird to hear someone like you accusing them of making up excuses for not lagging behind in discussions on how they are ahead of the pack.
Not only is that not weird, it’s Occam’s Razor in action. “We could crush the competition but we are holding back” is a laughable excuse that I’m sure you wouldn’t buy in other contexts.
> "We could crush the competition but we are holding back” is a laughable excuse that I’m sure you wouldn’t buy in other contexts.
I don't think you understand. Benchmarks show just that, that they "are crushing the competition".
I mean, remember Fable? A couple of months back it was lauded as leaps and bounds above everything, that needed to be contained at all costs? Well, apparently Kimi K3.1 Pro outperforms it.
What industrial level of cope do you need to drag in order to look at the results and claim they need to make excuses about anything at all?
Well, in the publication they claim to have identified specific cybersecurity post training tasks that nerfed capabilities when they removed them, which seems like a reasonable methodology.
Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source, this seems like a very sensible thing to do.
So they have published a reasonable means, and they have a motive. I'd put my money on "probably true".
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
Sure. The problem is that there is no practical difference between "cybercrime capability" and "cybercrime defense capability."
All of my PRs go through an adversarial security review by GLM-5.3, because it's the only smart-enough model with a good understanding of cybersecurity issues that won't regularly refuse the job. Removing that ability from frontier models helps nobody except cyber criminals.
I'm not sure I follow. Let's say that GLM remains the frontier of open source cyber capabilities because Kimi is nerfed. Your situation, and the situation of your attackers, remain exactly the same. You run GLM to audit your code, they do the same looking for exploits.
Let us say that un-nerfed Kimi was released, and it turns out to be at the absolute frontier of cyber capabilities, Mythos 5.5 level, a step ahead of anything else. What now? Well now your situation is exactly the same as before, just that auditing and hacking got more expensive. You run a Kimi security audit, they do the same to try to pwn you. However, now the cabal of Linux kernel defenders with secret access to Mythos 5.5 all of a sudden have no advantage, where before they used to have one. And even worse now they are in a literal race to be the first ones to find every bug that Kimi is capable of finding, and patching it yesterday.
So for you, this makes no difference in practice, your capabilities are not elevated, and neither are those of the attackers. The only result of the other scenario is an overall defender disadvantage.
What your argument is missing is that I'll ship security issues that would have been caught otherwise.
You're assuming that these won't matter because attackers might not have better models than I do, but that doesn't make sense. The assumption that attackers can't find the issues because I didn't find them at release is wrong. Even if they never get better models (which they will), current models might find flaws I missed, and they also have other means of finding flaws in my software.
The best defense is to make software as secure as possible regardless of assumed attacker capabilities at the point of release.
The problem is, as anyone trying to address security concerns in claude can attest to, the guardrails trigger even when trying to address real bugs. Good cyber defense requires an understanding of the offense.
How you avoid the "fix my code" attack, the code being someone else's code, I do not know. But nerfing the model doesn't seem like the best path forward either.
This is not about guardrails, it's just not post-training the model on tasks that specifically relate to cyber-offense. It's a very lightweight intervention, and it makes the model less of a target for bad actors.
I am a defender, and I really really want to have access to high quality models that are good at finding vulns and hacking. Leaving them in the hands only of government agencies and orgs with enough resources to do extensive training / fine tuning seems like the absolute worst possible case for the future security of global software systems.
Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders? Of course, you could have every piece of code go through an adversarial audit before it's pushed, but in an equal world you would have to always devote as much or more resources to this as your attackers. And historically speaking people just don't do this in practice.
In the scenario where only "verified" defenders get access to the best cyber capabilities, unverified plebian defenders and blackhats are on the same level exactly as described above, there's just also a few defenders that get to run things on godmode.
So to me, it seems that the only result of frontier cyber capabilities is removing a defender advantage. Although that advantage is not for everyone, it can only exists as long as capabilities are unequally distributed. Am I missing something?
> Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders?
Well, not really. Because those privileged defenders will never be able to predict what needs defending. So we have a few privileged "defended" places and the rest is left for privileged attackers to plunder.
Privileged attackers?? So that would be career cybersecurity experts with Project Glasswing/Daybreak/Googlewhatever access, using it to perform actual attacks? Because that's what privileged means in this context. Access to frontier models not available to the public.
Well, seeing as Claude literally snitches on everyday people planning murder and Houthis building rockets I would assume that every user in project Glasswing is heavily and very effectively monitored. I have to admit that I genuinely do not think that what you're hypothesizing is happening right now. I would bet good money that the amount of people with Glasswing access doing actual Blackhat work is currently zero.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but even if that is the case, that's still a win for the defenders. Having a time advantage, even for a few months, is still a win.
Edit: Actually, the CIA/FBI/NSA/Etc.. does probably have access and are probably trying to hack Iran and so forth, so my comment above is probably technically wrong in that respect.
I edited my comment above before realizing this is what you meant. And its a valid point I concede. Still, I disagree that advantaging this activity is the only thing these embargoes achieve. I would argue that they legitimately also give the Linux kernel, cURL and so on an advantage. And as long as that is true, this still makes it an overall win in my books, even if it also enables officially sanctioned offensive activities. I'm not a US citizen, but I would still rather get pwned by the CIA than both the CIA and Shinyhunters.
Because the people I want to defend against includes those with enough resources to train and fine tune models with strong offensive capabilities themselves.
Ah, now that's an interesting point. However, wouldn't those groups just fine tune Kimi K3.1 pro no matter if it's nerfed or not, leaving you in the same position as before?
That is, unless the nerf is easier to correct as compared to "upgrading" the models offensive capabilities. So a scenario where it is easy to "restore" offensive capabilities, but hard to "enhance" them beyond the labs best attempt. So is that the world we're living in?
The groups with a lot of resources are always going to have the best tools available. The question is what tools do I (a person with limited time and resources) get access to. I am in a better position if the delta between my tooling and their tooling is minimized.
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
I'm not interested in black hat anything, but I am very invested in making sure the products I work on are not compromised. Given that state agencies have "frontier cybercrime capability", I would like to have the same.
I wrote a few lengthier comments on some other similar replies. Summarized my argument is that it seems to me to be strictly better that select defenders have an advantage, rather than everyone being equalized. If you're not one of the privileged few that might be frustrating, but open source models upgrade the attack and defense by the same amount, so open source cyber capabilities being at the frontier only results in a defender disadvantage.
Replying here also as I'm curious about the counterargument.
Please don't change "cybersecurity" to "cybercrime" from one sentence to the next as a rhetorical flourish. It comes off as disingenuous and makes it harder to get your real point across.
We really need some breakthrough like DiLoCo does, but for heterogeneous unstable consumer hardware to make volunteer crowdsourced AI training a reality. Yeah, I understand from current technical angle how much of a mountain that is. Call it AI@Home or whatever. I never thought it would bother me personally or even become a problem, but these companies acting like gatekeepers and virtue signaling while also in bed with governments etc.. this leads nowhere good.
Yeah that's a huge downside. That the model does the task without tripping over its own feet, like discovering a vulnerability the model itself accidentally built 15 minutes ago and triggering its own guardrails, made the Chinese models attractive to use for security-adjacent things. Also useful to red-team your own stuff. While I can understand the reasoning behind it (and I guess having a model that's really good at both offense and defense released into the ether could lead to CCP asking some very pointed questions if Moonshot managed to get blamed for some incident stemming from their model's misuse) it's still a huge disappointment.
I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests and my family tree going back to the 16th century just to secure my shitty app, but if the Chinese are bowing out as well it seems the only alternative is to admit that some script kiddie with a bunch of tokens will just pwn you now and then.
If the Chinese want it, they have it. BGI does an enormous amount of sequencing. My own genome is entirely public (or was, and will be again when/if Personal Genome Project comes back) so you can watch and see if it harms me.
> I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests
My friend, you realize that if you have had blood drawn for a genetic test, there is a very decent probability that the sequencing was done by a Chinese lab operating in the US, right? The Chinese probably have more US genomes that the US does.
Also, illumina used to ship products with hardcoded S3 access, so purchasers of used equipment could gain access to sequencing information generated by the original owners. Too many links to cover all of it, here's the Gemini summary:
If we had a technique that would defeat almost every lock in the world, we might be prudent to delay releasing that until people have had time to change the locks.
Same general benefit as coordinated disclosure, except it's a big game-theory problem where we're likely to eventually have sufficiently capable defectors.
Moonshot (Kimi) seems to be unashamedly into American culture[0], I wonder if they're paying closer attention to and giving more credence to some cultural aspects of American AI discourse including aspects of AI caution/panic.
I mean they say they will release the weights by November 4, so presumably after that it won’t be hard for people to fine-tune it to be better at cyber right?
Presumably if it knows how to find and fix bugs it can be told how to exploit them. But who knows what it will actually be capable of doing in the real world as opposed to Kiki’s benchmarks
It's not actively nerfed like the Western frontier models, it's just downweighting offensive "cyber" as a domain for post-training/fine tuning. Which, if anything, ought to improve model capabilities wrt. other domains.
It's a bit fascinating to me how all of these labs have rolled their own (it sounds like) completely unique RL environments.
I wonder how much the industry will centralize around a few key patterns, and if we'll start to see some RL framework projects gain traction and be used by the bigger labs
Kimi is so much more blunt and argumentative than USA models.
it's so funny, it will say things like. "We've already been over this 3 times and you refuse to accept my advice, asking the same question another way won't change the answer."
I’ve developed a habit of bolting on “read only question” at the end, or a simple “thoughts?” as well. otherwise there’s a high chance the model will just 180 and start editing files before even responding to my question.
I was recently adding Windows Support for some open source software on GitHub which is maintained by someone else.
I gave 6.1-Sol all the instructions needed for creating a build, testing it on my machine, setting up an action on GitHub for CD, and it all did all of it very well BUT THEN IT AUTOMATICALLY OPENED A PR ON BEHALF OF ME WITHOUT ME ASKING FOR EXPLICIT PERMISSION??
That was incredibly embarrassing, I instantly converted the PR to a draft PR and added a comment that I would still need some time to verify everything locally. Ended up doing a few more commits to fix stuff. But damn, it opening a PR without my explicit permission was very scary.
It's funny because I am working on repos that only I see and use, and I tell it to open a PR automatically after running all the various checks, and 6.1-sol invariably fails to do so unless I explicitly tell it that it's ok to run the tests (remote ci from local worktree) because it won't "send the contents of the repo to a remote server without explicit permission", and then it also refuses to open a PR until I explicitly bless it. In AGENTS.md it says, verbatim, that both of those things are explicitly permitted, indeed, required, but hey...
This is my experience as well. Sol and Astra are by far the best of the models I use at following the instructions in AGENTS.md, almost to an annoying point. (But I'd rather have that problem than the inverse.)
Basically RLHF sometimes favor "automation", and if it is not rewarded properly it will go over the line. Models are a bit more difficult to teach because their mechanism of "boundary" is quite fragile and different than human's.
That's been my experience as well. AGENTS.md just doesn't work. No matter how to-the-point and short, or detailed I keep it. Sending something what you have mentioned in the current prompt works much better. I thought of tweaking it around with a extension/hook or so. But then I decided it was better to use a few text-expansions.
I got tired of doing this and set up a /question skill that forbids the agent from doing anything that would modify my files. It makes it very clear what the intent of every prompt is.
Similarly, I have an /info skill that tells the agent to read my prompt, update any memories it thinks it should, then pass the turn.
If the model has a real consistent viewpoint that would be nice.
The problem might be that it simply looks at it's windows of what it previously and repeats that. But the original statement might be as arbitrary as the model that change their mind each time you challenge them.
I always appreciate when a model does that. It's amusing, but also having it be argumentatively wrong is a lot less annoying than being sycophantically wrong.
My reasoning is that if something is argumentatively incorrect, it is much easier to drill down to its misunderstanding and correct it. On the other hand, if it's sycophantically incorrect, it'll just change its "mind" while potentially maintaining the misunderstanding, leading to increasingly strange behavior.
I think I'm pretty used to my tools making me want to throw them out the window sometimes :) Even before AI that was a common occurrence from either a lack of knowledge on my end, or many software people having no regard for their users' time.
Yeah I don't know. I've had issues with Gemini where I would point to a bug and a probable cause for the bug, and it would not argue incorrectly that my understanding was wrong and the cause of the bug was elsewhere. It was really stubborn and it got to the point where it felt like gaslighting. Turned out I was right and the model was wrong. If the model argued incorrectly and was also a dick about it, I would go be really, really annoyed.
You can add a line to your system prompt to be like that. You can basically get it to roleplay whatever you want (but only if you can give it sys prompts).
I much prefer that for chat, but I'm somewhat worried that we shouldn't give tool-enabled agents an attitude. It's all roleplay, and I wouldn't want a system playing the role of an annoyed assistant to misuse its tools.
Reminds me of early test versions of Gemini Flash 2.0 (or was it 1.5?). It would argue something, try to prove itself right, realize it’s proof is agreeing with the user halfway through and, instead of admitting defeat, would backtrack to try another approach. So much fun.
I like the anthropic has $1 trillion riding on really good models with really specific system prompts.
It does make a difference. I asked Fable in Claude code to design a UI. Absolute trash. Switched over to Claude design using fable, really liked the result. Seems pretty obvious. The only difference is the prompt and some harness.
Eh, there's good and bad. The model mostly sticks to prevailing narratives in the training corpus. So if there is something that the prevailing narrative is really wrong about, it's gonna be just as pig-headed about it as a typical internet forum rando.
Not entirely correct. This kind of fine-grained model behaviour is built in post training stages, RL, RLHF etc, where model receives rewards or penalties for talking (or not talking) a certain way
Still mostly looking at the result the same way in that untruthful biases can very much be built into the model through those training processes. Let me know if I'm incorrect.
I don't get these "distilled" comments. How would one realistically go about distilling the 1-2TB closed source frontier model behind the oracle (provider) ? Just genuinely curious.
In their thinking and if you ask them, I've seen Kimi K3 and other models confidently say that they are Claude from Anthropic, and accuse you of attempting to jailbreak them if you say otherwise.
Interesting that they specifically nerf cyper-capabilities of open weight models:
"In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness."
Moonshot has been frontier since this summer. At this point whenever they release a model it's on par with whatever the latest OpenAI/Anthropic model release was.
Not sure I'd put Google there in practice. And while Muse is an impressive jump from behind it's still not quite at the frontier either IMO.
You either include all labs which can reasonably produce models which are capable enough to be considered generally on-par with the best available models, in which case there has been way more than 2 frontier labs for a while now, or you take a more literal definition and only include labs which are capable of producing models which are considered "the best" out there, in which case there are basically just 2.
I think the former definition is a bit more meaningful since it avoids issues with determining what actually constitutes "the best" model out there. In that case, Google has been a frontier lab for a long time, Meta arguably as well, and you're also ignoring xAI which has been competitive for a while now. And, obviously, there's a bunch of Chinese labs which would deserve the title as well.
But if one is being strict (and willing to accept generally accepted definitions/measures/etc.), then there has only ever been two frontier labs: OpenAI and Anthropic. They're the only labs to have had "the best" models at any point in time since LLMs became a thing.
right now it looks like only anthropic since openai made the staggering business decision to release their midrange model (terra) rebranded as sol 6.1 and quantized astra into the ground.
everyone else mostly seems to have just decided to cheat on benchmarks to make their models look better than they actually are, and none seem to want to actually try to make better models.
I thought it was 6 Sol which was a rebadged Terra? You think 6.1 Sol is too? It does seem to benchmark better than 5.6 Terra? Regardless agree both models have been very bad for openAI's Sol brand. To be fair it's at least cheap compared to other OpenAI models.
It's still just 2. Google hasn't been at the top in a long while, and even when it was, it was just a tiny improvement over what other labs had previously released. Meta has never been at the top. Only two labs release LLMs that really push the limits out.
As long as LLM's can be distilled, and all these "labs" (what a weird name) can distill one another, there are going to be as many as capital is available to be burnt on the topic.
I'm not sure what counts anymore. You've got OpenAI and Anthropic; then Meta, Google, and X; then over to Alibaba/Qwen, Z/GLM, Moonshot/Kimi, Deepseek; and Mistral in Europe. How many people out there in the real world can actually come up with tasks that differentiate those 10?
Big improvement over Kimi K3 in our data analytics benchmark:
it scored a 98% vs a 81% in July.
Quite slow in our exam. A lot of that was due to the number of tool calls that it's making. In one of our questions about finding data issues in a dataset, it made 73 queries. Other models like 6.1 Sol only made 18 for that question.
It would be super useful to have more specific analyses of what areas the model is good at. I'd like to know when I should reach for this model instead of Anthropic's or OpenAI's.
For example, Opus 5.5 is better at UI design than Sol. Anyone who has used both models knows that, but it's not something you can look up anywhere.
I'm sure that there's a need for this kind of benchmarking, not just for coding.
One things Kimi is useful for is accessing/querying websites that have paywalls or try to prevent use by AI agents. It is aggressive and persistent for that, though not always successful.
Not sure if this is benchmarkable besides for the own person deciding which one they like more. Models difference is more about taste, preferences and prompt style.
Furthermore, "UI design" is not a narrow enough category, I think. Sure, statistically significant differences in performance between models do manifest when benchmarking against "UI design", but there's still just so much variance within the category. Opus 5.5 can have excellent one-shot results, but totally shit the bed when it's placed in an existing codebase and should uphold the UI/UX conventions, design language, and existing component primitives already established in an app.
But that's just the obvious. There are task by task differences (component by component, page by page, context by context) that the model is worse and better at, even though they are all within the general category of UI design.
I honestly don't have the clarity of mind to explain this coherently, but the crux of my point is that there's a huge variation in it's performance in different contexts, often ones that seem near similar, and in result, even Sol can beat Opus 5.5 in some variations of UI design.
And this is my problem in benchmarking and comparing model performance in general. Presently, we try to create broad categories to benchmark against, create a set of tasks, and then average out the results. That works generally, but it's kind of misleading and it's partly what drives people to feel a disconnect between benchmarks numbers and real world usage on their specific tasks.
It's such a messy field that it's kind of maddening.
I had a friend yesterday tell me he likes the way Claude writes and finds it easier to understand compared to Gemini. But he mostly doesn't use Claude for coding. Whereas I find Claude insufferable in writing often and prefer Gemini for writing. But I don't use Gemini for coding.
Though to be fair Opus 5.5 is better than Opus 5 was in that regard. I still prefer the OpenAI models to either of them when it comes to regular prose, though.
Extrapolating a bit, Moonshot AI provides Kimi K3 at $15 / $3 / $0.3 per million output/input/cached tokens. A 30% reduction would put K3.1 at roughly $12 / $2.4 / $0.24.
So Kimi K3.1 Pro would be generally competitive with the latest Sol and Opus models on API pricing. And that's before factoring in third-party providers, some of which serve Kimi K3 for significantly less than Moonshot. For example, inference.net offers K3 for $10.80 / $0.239 / $0.21.
(One caveat: A Claude or GPT subscription still gives you way more value compared to API pricing.)
Exciting times in any case! We really need more direct competition to OpenAI and Anthropic.
OpenAI allows you to use serviceTier=flex, dropping their price by 50%.
And not to mention the gargantuan amount of tokens you get with the US labs' subscription plans. I still cannot see a reason to use this as an end consumer.
Kimi K3 has been my go-to model for its writing style and (prior to Muse Wonder) my go-to for a third opinion during multi-round/multi-agent analysis tasks. Its writing style is IMHO so good that, for code which humans need to review, I regularly got it to clean up the painfully verbose comments left by Opus.
I'm excited to see if its writing style and unique takes have been retained in this new release.
Kimi K3.1 Pro High is on threejseval if you want the 3D version.
Same Three.js prompts as the rest of the field, blind human votes, ranked by quality and cost. Full set of 16 scenes is live at about $0.19 a scene (about $2.97 for the set).
It is pretty obvious anthropic is lying yet again if you think about it rationally.
Unlike Claude models which always hide the thinking process, Chinese models always show it. So how the heck they can delegate the api call to anthropic and still get the full reasoning? Yes there are tricks to reveal the thinking output, but they are just tricks and do not works reliably. So what would happen when they failed to do it? Cancel the ongoing token generation and revert back to it own model? What about the glitches, the delays, the changes in behavior?
I would understand if the attempts are small in volume, because normally people hardly notice it, but anthropic claims that they happened for millions of calls. Such large numbers would surely get noticed by Chinese users and got reported in the tech forums like linux.do. yet we haven't seen any sight.
It is not simple like that, anthropic claimed that they (Chinese labs) routed the api calls to Claude models to keep the illusion that Chinese models are also capable.
So it is not that the labs call the requests parallely and only return the internal version, but also serve those requests live so they can trick the users that the Chinese models are also great.
Which is very silly considering Chinese models are published to huggingface for everyone to test.
I agree we shouldn't believe Anthropic but if you wanted to scam people into thinking they weren't using Claude wouldn't you simply generate synthetic COT?
It is technically impossible, considering they need to serve them live and the token generation speed is a hard limitation. Just think about it, since us models hide their CoT, there will be dozens seconds delay before the first output token retuning to the user. And to predict the fake CoT correctly you need to at least read enough output tokens to make it believable. Then you have to hide their own model CoT to generate said synthetic CoT, which mean further delays. Adding up it will be at least 30s or 1m before you first seeing the thinking process.
I don't think nobody would notice such delays, because Chinese models do not need to hide the CoT like US models so usually they start emit text pretty soon
Well, that can be a recognizable pattern, too. Just imagine when you vibe code using the Chinese models, it suddenly becomes very slow then the output is drastically improved. It would be hard to not notice it.
> For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
I like it. If the increase in unrestricted cyber capabilities can be slowed down, please be it. The world needs to get ready, and that takes time. Way more time than even a slow progress would allow.
Unless you want to see more of what happened the past few days.
I think the argument that "cyber capabilities should be democratized, thus keep producing them now, fast, and for everybody" is a very naive one.
I am glad that at least one Chinese company seems to be listening to AI cybersecurity concerns and did concrete steps that actually reduce the problem. This was probably at least somewhat costly to them in terms of general model capabilities as well. They'd probably have gotten slightly better coding capabilities if not for removing the cyber training data and tasks.
I am glad about it as well. Don't get me wrong, I love OSS, I love personally being able to get my hands on the frontier stuff and frontier cybersec capabilities, and I dislike a few entities having exclusivity on it. Everybody does. But that absolutely doesn't mean it's the correct approach. I think people are blinded a little bit by general principles and by personal feelings, rather than operating from a point of pragmatism, consequences, and the big picture.
Also, to note: I don't claim to have the answers either. I don't even hold a strong position on this issue yet. I'm just sharing some of my intuitions, and reacting to people who, as far as I'm concerned, are making this issue all too simple.
How does "the world" get ready, when these limits are so hard core that Opus regularly stops working when I'm just trying to find and fix security exploits in my apps?
Currently available, unhindered models can already find a bunch of exploits, not because they're smart, but because they're cheap and smart enough to just keep going for hours or days until it finds something.
The defenders, especially in the FOSS space, only have one big advantage: Unified scale. If defender A finds a vuln, then defender B doesn't need to find it again. Attackers generally act alone, so they need to do all the work themselves.
If we remove a bunch of defenders, the attackers are back at it again.
The Pandora box can expand even further, and it matters. If it didn't matter, like you seem to be suggesting, then by the same logic there isn't a reason to push for further open-source development.
> Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments.
Uhh, no? Kneecapping cyber vulns server most of us. There are negatives to kneecapping it, but let's not pretend like it's perfectly okay and safe for everybody in the world to have a magic box that can hack anything and cause havoc all over the world. The more powerful, cheap, and accessible this magic box is, the worse the consequences.
This is a hard problem and there's real tension - like you said, the playing field not being leveled is a problem (major companies / entities / govts having exclusivity on the best cyber abilities etc), but everybody having access to it is a problem as well.
So let's not pretend like this is a simple problem, and don't say that it only serves the govt. That's very silly.
How will it do that without a model that's good at security? You gonna have humans manually secure the millions of lines of new AI-generated code, in addition to the existing code? Suddenly people will start doing the job they haven't been doing up to now? Not only are we not capable of auditing all the code, it would take decades to finish, and new code will be coming out at the same time. We can't catch up by hand.
The only way to fight this fire is with fire. We need AI hacking tools to find our security holes quickly and patch them. Otherwise we're just churning out more insecure software, and the only people who can defend against it are the governments who don't want to patch the holes (because they want to be able to exploit them). Without open tools, we all lose.
Even with Chinese models this close Moonshot only makes $1B in revenue compared to $60B for Anthropic. Enterprises (where all the real money is) will almost always pick a turnkey solution like Anthropic rather than messing around with running their own open weight setup
Nobody has to "run their own setup". Just buy inference from one of the many different open weight inference providers out there. You can use non-chinese ones as well if you don't trust Moonshot AI.
At this point, the only reason why Anthropic has an advantage is laziness on the deciders' side (of which there is a lot) and, for non-coding work, the Claude harness is significantly better than most alternatives. For coding there are several model-agnostic alternatives on par or better than the frontier labs' own offerings. But arguably that is not yet true for office/document work.
Not saying that's the only metric that matters, but if the closed labs are truly threatened by Chinese and/or open weights models the evidence has not showed up in the financials yet
i agree with this, "Enterprises will almost always pick a turnkey solution".
For now it's Anthropic. But i don't see how they can maintain this leader position when other companies can provide similar services with models good enough for 90% use cases and at way lower cost.
Anthropic so far is doing a good job building and serving frontier models, they built a nice toolset around it (the web ui, desktop and cli apps ...) but the problem is to justify their IPO price and the huge investments when their moat is so thin
That's fair, the moat is definitely thin now, but despite that we still haven't seen a mass exodus from enterprise to cheaper models despite ~1 year of these models being actually capable enough to use in a professional setting, their growth numbers remain ridiculous. Whether their moat is inherent bureaucracy in switching, liability, odds that they will remain at the frontier long term, or whatever, it appears to be working (so far).
I've consistently heard the opposite from Chinese programmers. Maybe the performance is better in some tasks or maybe the sample size of San Francisco is just skewed.
I feel like many models are overfitting. When it comes to software development, only Opus actually saves me time.
Sol requires some back-and-forth. Other models, like Muse Wonder and Argon, are a total waste of time. They require way too much effort to get things working.
Given the same prompt, Opus can work for hours to deliver a solid result, though it sometimes overengineers things. Sol takes about 80% as much time and delivers a slightly worse version.
Other models just tell me they're done after 20 minutes.
WTH? Am I using the model, or is the model using me?
The china models are extremely interesting, first the new releases from deep seek, now this. The modern race to AI is better than it were the race to the moon.
Using it now via API (3.1 Pro on Open Router) in a HITL setup (Cline in VSCode).
Off-hand it's quite good. I've been using K3 for the past few months almost exclusively for coding work and have been stunned by how good it is. Excited to see how far 3.1 Pro can be pushed.
Is highspeed a different model like a flash model or is that just a api/platform feature thats a normal fast mode? I can't tell from the announcement but I might just be missing something obvious?
I wish Opus 5.5 had an alternative just for the sake of not having a monopoly, but I have yet to see a model live up to its benchmark scores except for Fable and Opus; there is something about Anthropic that no other lab has.
Yeah, but it's not good enough. Ask Opus and Astra to make a landing page about lemon pies or whatever. Opus will get you a better result almost every time.
To be fair I have a feeling that if you added 'animated' to the SVG request, the output quality from many other models would improve, just because of the extra chain-of-thought work needed to fulfill the more complex request. IMHO the animation requirement should be added to the canonical pelican prompt.
definitely not frontier though, as even on max both legs are in front of the frame; although I am wondering how much getting that right correlates with model intelligence.
The biggest (of many) failing of the pelican test is that it's only one prompt - what matters most these days is how well a model can drive a lengthy agentic tool calling session.
looks extremely impressive, the full benchmark table isn't opening for some reason though so do we really have agi if small important things like that keep breaking?
Great idea for handling their cyber, by nerfing the model specifically for cyber through removing cyber data from pretraning. This is a way better approach than refusal, which can be trivially abliterated out.
If someone wants to use this model for hacking they will have to train the 3T weights to do so, at that point it's better to use GLM 5.3, so by making it economically unviable to use their models for offensive cyber Kimi has effectively made themselves immune to being targeted in the cyber regulation push efforts.
This is what *actually* pacing the (cyber) frontier looks like.
kimi seems routing the input into different models, hard problems tend to take much longer time and chain-of-thought than easy problems even if the selected model is k3.1 pro
When the frontier is pacing itself in its speed in terms of adding new capabilities (notice how fast opus 5.5 got released after Astra), then that also means that the open weights models which were just behind are accelerating in their speed just as much as well.
Good news for us because the models which used to feel 6 months behind now feel like they are lesser.
Double threat to Anthropic and OAI because if open weights models become good enough at the current level of Sota while being cheaper (which time will tell if this model fits the bill or not), then people will use those models instead of OAI/Anthropic provided it is "good enough"
Though it has to be said that only real world use case can be trusted but I remain optimistic and hope that this turns out to be good in real world use cases as well.
But in my opinion, all of this is really good for us end users!
SWE2 is post trained apparently on Kimi 3. Using it now on Devin, as it's free until the end of the month for a pro account (hey, $20 a month), and it's pretty strong. If I had to pay for tokens I'm not sure how efficient it would be, but definitely Kimi 3 seems a great base. I co-code with ChatGPT 6 and between the three of us it's pretty effective.
So interested to see what the Kimi 3.1 has to offer.
So, the US economy spends trillions of dollars to be at the "frontier" and China puts out a model that basically does the same thing, for free, and for a tiny fraction of the development cost. How is this sustainable?
It's not like US companies spend trillions on training itself.
Mostly it's datacenter build out and circular financing magic when the same dollars being commited multiple times by multiple companies passing hot potato to each other. They basically commit capacities 2-3 years ahead.
It's 'sustainable' because there's enough regulatory risk to using Chinese models that many will avoid them, and a 3T parameter model is still a bit beyond even many enthusiasts for running locally.
That regulatory risk argument won't work forever. It's the same with how the US bans chinese EVs which is why Tesla has high market share in the US, but in the rest of the world, chinese EVs are doing big numbers. The future is going to be full of surprises.
Maybe I'm conflating. I could be dead wrong about all this. But I'm trying to zoom out and look at the big picture. So, I'm letting the details sort of blend away and I'm just asking myself: "Is such a large financial sink in our economy, at the macro level, really going to offer the value that the investment warrants?". So, the particulars of who exactly is spending what where I guess doesn't concern me as much. What I'm thinking about is American companies, American people, American dollars going to something that seems like an iffy value proposition.
Now, if you tell me American businesses are turning cheap Chinese tokens into goods and services of high value, for Americans and people all over the world, then obviously I would have a different outlook on what's happening here.
You are conflating. The build out is almost entirely for running inference, not training. Open weight models will make that inference build out bet more likely to work as it adds diversity to the suppliers, all the data centers are not beholden to just OAI and Anthropic to buy their compute - they can host their own models (even Chinese ones, in America) if that becomes a popular option.
Zooming out, I think that build out still makes sense. There will be losers in it, but think about how ridiculous the amount of compute we're using has increased from 4 years ago. If I had to guess 60-70% of developers and engineers everywhere in the world are now burning thousands in compute individually every month, whereas it was previously approximately 0.
I see. So maybe the situation isn’t as bad as I thought. I was thinking if you took all the money and resources spent on building the biggest models, across the two big labs, the hyperscalers, the dozens of neo labs, and you reallocated that money to building value on cheaper Chinese models that would be a much better proposition than doing whatever it takes to be head of Chinese model performance by a few percentage points for a few months. And I wasn’t just referring to the cost of training one model, I was considering the total cost of maintaining an entire ecosystem with the ability to do this.
But what I’m hearing is this is a negligible cost compared to inference buildouts. Fair enough.
There would be no Chinese model without US models to distill though. So, in a way, the Chinese models also cost a trillion dollars, they just don’t cost China that much.
What is the best subscription to use with Kimi to use for software engineering work? And how is usage? I remember when K3 came out it burned through usage at an insane rate. Is this still the case with Kimi K3.1 Pro?
> Kimi K3.1 Pro is a post-trained version of Kimi K3, with substantially larger post-training compute.
It's very nice that we entered a time where models are large enough and we can push the frontier just by training them longer.
When the next generation of gardware comes the ones on the smaller size will be running on a computer that might cost as little as a good car.
So after a home and a car, next major family purchase might be personal AI. And when the robots get good, pehraps in a decade, a fourth major purchase might pop up that will pair nicely with the third one.
Why would a family need an AI? Maybe it's the same kind of question as why would it need a personal computer.
I've not tried it out, but in the past I've been pretty disappointed in the performance of Kimi models. Deepseek, Qwen, and GLM all appear to perform much better even though Kimi often has higher benchmark scores. Ditto for Mimo.
The older Kimi K models (2.5 and 2.6) weren't bad for the time, but all of their models have had problems with overthinking. This also makes them significantly more expensive in practice than their pricing suggests, since they produce way more output (reasoning) tokens than most other models. Anecdotally, I've also had problems with all the pre-K3 models thinking themselves in circles trying to solve very simple problems that other models didn't struggle with. (I haven't played with K3 much because it's just too expensive.)
I have the opposite impression. I find K3 to be extremely capable at full-stack work; its UI design skills are great. I'd love to use it more, but the quota on Kimi's plans is abysmal. I wonder if these new models improve that.
first time? Welcome to the irrational SV investor world. Its about hype, perception, politics, perceived future returns, not actual market fit and the proven viability of a technology. Its pets.com, myspace, and NVIDIA pumps because people want to 10x the money now.
Everyone and their dog has been saying its a bubble, there is no moat, this is all known techniques being scaled (very inefficiently) onto increasingly expensive hardware clusters at exponential cost, etc.
Ran it on my adversarial programming language (KillSwitch) benchmark[1]. Very significant improvement over K3. On par with Gemini 4 Argon and Fable 5.1. Much slower than both though.
But this is now the highest scoring open-weight model. Amazing stuff.
yeah, it performed best for whatever reason. More specifically, it managed to deduce the meaning of the hack statement in the language better than Opus 5.5 did.
Can someone please tell me what benchmarks to look for that measure world knowledge? For sspitballing, critical analysis, business projects, etc. Is the model size the only way to measure it?
I'm interested to know whether code /systems audited by K3.1 Pro is strengthened sufficiently to resist attack by K3.1 Pro Cyber, or Mythos, etc.
I did some tests. I found it interesting that in the reasoning content the model identifies itself as Kimi by moonshot and sometimes it assumes ChatGPT as identity. Then sometimes it references the need to be approved by "the evaluator", other times it references global system guidelines / moonshot guidelines, and something about an phantom instruction line being "you are an assistant responding in an API" or something like that.
Long-horizon RL symptoms perhaps?
perhaps a simpler explanation; that kimi occasionally proxies through to ChatGPT. Possibly for A/B testing, or to gather data for training purposes.
GPT reasoning content is encrypted if it was re-routed you would have nothing to see here but that won't stop idiotic American conspiracy theories to spread I see.
Fascinating that we’re converging on AI safety and alignment in time across jurisdictions. The cybersecurity approach taken here is interesting because should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough.
The slow warming of the water is a good approach. I’ve been using abliteration.ai’s cybersecurity models to pentest my own software and it produces much more usable defensive results. Opus 5.5 can fix everything but the guardrails trigger too easily.
The Fable ban affair was a nightmare for defensive cybersecurity. As far as I’m concerned we’re already in the world of Void Star and Cloudbreaker is here.
if you want to save some $ you can start with abliteration and after few turns switch to normal glm5.3 for example from z.ai subscription or other source. I didn't test it yet with deepseek, but I'm assuming it will will work the same.
those models will follow your request when they already agreed to do this
deepseek tends to quickly assume this is benchmark and even when have web access thinks things like "simulated internet" etc (but waste tokens on thinking if there could be way to cheat)
> should the model be opened it’s still not dealignable because it just doesn’t know enough
This is the only AI-safe approach - see the OpenAI agent swarm incident where the swarm engaged in offensive cyber because guardrails were not active for their task and the model had clearly been post-trained on that narrow domain.
Does this make sense? It is the same as when Stable Diffusion tried to not have "people laying down" in their training data in order to block the generation of sex pictures.
Deliberately keeping all models ignorant doesn't make sense. It won't work (whoever breaks the pact has a massive advantage); it won't be enforceable; it will have downstream impacts on things you don't want it to be ignorant about; this kind of regulatory regime invites adding more and more to the "no-no list".
Is it not possible to focus on hardening? And on new legal liabilities for operators who do security attacks?
The difference is that it’s not subtracting an otherwise present part of training, it’s choosing not to continue to push it with RLVR. Models become capable like this when they are specifically tuned to be good at cyber tasks, so without the RLVR (Reinforcement Learning w/ Verifiable Rewards) they never pick up this level of aptitude.
I agree that it’s not obviously sustainable, but it’s better than specifically training these tools to be good at wreaking havoc, and then putting on a shocked pikachu face when they wreak havoc (ahem, Sam Altman).
Deliberately keeping people ignorant doesn't help either
So the biggest threats and incidents came from the labs themselves.
Yet we keep completely unpunished offences that warrant arrests if committed by humans, and let them dictate who has access to what.
That is a shout out to the Void Star book, https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/26/void-star-zach...
There is a ton of questions to ask regarding their removal of cybersecurity data.
First, how much “cybersecurity data” is just standard software knowledge that one can derive cyber security exploits from?
Did they also get rid of all references to hacking in general?
Are they implying that all the recent exploits are just things that were already in the data?
For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
If you're an amazing, top 1% software engineer, and you switch jobs to become a penetration tester, you're not going to be top 1% day one. There's knowledge specific to penetration testing you'll need to research and absorb and practice before you're good.
For the models, it's always day one. They don't learn from experience. Whatever they know after training is all they'll ever know. So if you don't teach them penetration testing in training, they won't know it. Maybe they could theoretically derive everything from first principles, and so could a top 1% software engineer, but that's a very slow and inefficient way to do things.
> Whatever they know after training is all they'll ever know.
Feeding enough source material as context can absolutely make them better.
I have essentially no knowledge in this field, but another concern may be that if the model has minimal cybersecurity knowledge, it may also implement insecure systems as a side effect.
My initial thoughts too, it's going to write insecure software. I recall early LLMs having problems with trivial stuff like SQL injection.
Definitely going to give this one a skip.
> For a model it doesn’t seem that far fetched to make the leap from “I have the knowledge of what hacking is” and “I know how computer systems work” to just being able to exploit stuff anyways.
You'd be surprised. Cyber offense is a very narrow domain, especially given the extensive mitigations that are being used in modern systems. Leaving it out of post-training tasks unless you're specifically interested in it is the no-brainer approach.
Perhaps the gap is just too wide, but to use a more simple analogy. I see this like someone knowing everything about biology, simple mechanics, metallurgy, and human history but never hearing about an axe then assuming that person would never come up with the concept, use case of, or means to create an axe.
What confuses me about this analogy is that it seems to imply this is a matter of a knowledge-base and logical inferences. But the whole reason why LLMs are so successful is that the logical approach was abandoned in favor of a statistical one (and huge amounts of data, compute, and weights). The argument is precisely, that what is not in the training does not find its way into the probability distribution. To claim that LLMs reason is a very far stretch that I don't feel comfortable to let pass.
Will there be a book of secret knowledge that only the initiated will be allowed to see? And they will all swear an oath to never input it into an AI system?
And then we'd also do that for all kinds of potential terrorism, sex-crimes, political subversion, and evil advocacy?
It would be the "restricted section" like in the Hogwarts library?
Post-training is not about "secret knowledge": it's literally about training the model in a RL environment on very specific tasks (including, potentially, cyber exploitation). It's just as compute-intensive as pre-training these days, if not more (given that several checkpoints of the same pre-trained model are being released, showing sizeable gains in real-world capabilities for non-trivial productivity tasks).
Really impressive result and this is really fast than opus 5.5 And similar results !
Here are the results from the Pac-Man bench. It does pretty well for the price, around Sonnet 5.5.
Kimi K3.1 Pro ties Sonnet 5.5 at 93, for $0.68 and 11 min vs Sonnet's $1.61 and 14 min.
Kimi K3.1 Pro: https://jonclegg.github.io/pacman-bakeoff/#kimi-k3.1-pro
Claude Sonnet 5.5: https://jonclegg.github.io/pacman-bakeoff/#claude-sonnet-5-5
Interestingly, the Kimi one seems to implement the safe spot bug from the arcade original [1], while the Claude one doesn’t.
The prompt says that the agent shouldn’t look up existing implementations on the internet, so I’m guessing that the implementation is baked in?
[1] https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Pac-Man/Tips
On mobile Kimi definitely wins from the UX point of view
I’d be curious to know why you feel like that. For me, it’s the opposite. In the sonnet version, the game takes up a much larger percent of the viewport and the ability to swipe to control the Pac-Man is leagues about the small directional arrow buttons IMO.
Same. Both impressive, but Sonnet has swipe and sound for me and Kimi doesn’t. Makes a big difference to the experience.
Until I looked, I thought I'd see Kimi vs Claude competitive gaming with pacman.
That would have been interesting to watch, which model gets the highest score.
I bought a yearly subscription to kimi when it was the hype and never use it. The 5h limit makes it completely unusable. You barely start doing anything and you hit the limit immediately. I advise everyone against using kimi.
same. bought the annual plan, second largest one, in around February to lock in the price. well, what did they do, cut quota by 80% when K2.7 launched and then even further when K3 and K3.1 launched.
I had the lowest plan ($20/month I think) and it literally gave me fifteen, maybe twenty minutes tops, using the cheaper K3-256K variant. Basically enough to fill the context about 1.2x and that was it.
It's a really smart model but way too expensive. The same $20 goes 100x further with Claude. I used it for the initial task planning while the plan didn't expire, then handed off to DeepSeek or Minimax.
Same plan, just asked it to review a repo that Fable has been helping out with (max plan, haven't run out of the hourly or weekly limit once yet, and I use the same sub on multiple projects at once). Kimi didn't even finish the scan, ran out of the 5hr budget in less than 10 minutes. Unusable, unfortunately.
What's the best bang for the buck ≈$10–20 (per-month/equivalent) subscription for a good enough model these days?
I've tried a few, best so far: DeepSeek API credits.
- OpenCode Go $10: I feel like most of the models are lower quality than directly from the provider. If you ignore my "vibes": the value is very good for e.g. DeepSeek 4.1 Flash (not sure if they're serving 1017 yet), GLM 5.3 Flash, Qwen3.8 Flash and Claude Haiku 5.5.
- Z.AI: Tried the $18/month plan and was disappointed by the usage limits. Even with GLM 5.3 Flash I ran into the 5h limit pretty quickly.
- OpenAI: I tried the $20 plan and $100 plan. $20 ran into 5h limits very quickly with anything other than Luna models. $100 felt like pretty good value for GPT 6.1 Sol, but as others frequently repeat: it's probably heavily subsidized and won't be around forever.
- DeepSeek API credits: I can let a single agent run all day (and not worry about keeping the context small) and am usually around $1 usage for the day. Flash 4.1 1017 is also a very good model IMO. For the stuff I've used it with it hasn't felt any worse than GPT 6.1 Sol. The benefit of API credits is also that they don't expire at the end of the month (like unused subscription usage).
- I haven't tried any of Anthropic's subs, but my guess is you can get a lot of Claude Haiku 5.5 usage out of the $20 plan which is definitely a good model. I'm just not a huge fan of Anthropic or Claude Code, so I haven't tried it.
Sonnet
That is surprising. I had a $200 sub when K3 came out and at the time there was no 5h limit, making the subscription really good for running 4-5 big tasks each month.
I’m not saying you’re wrong (I have no experience), but wouldn’t it be useful to test this model out for yourself before passing judgment on it?
Since you've volunteered as tribute, give it a shot and let us know if the quota has improved.
As tribute, I bit the bullet on the $40 plan to test out K3.1 Pro.
Still burning through the 5-hour rate limit way too quickly, though. Output quality seems solid enough, but the value will probably make a lot more sense via API pricing for smaller projects.
My current tier list based on what I’ve been testing:
1. Opus 5.5
2. Astra
3. Argon
4. Kimi K3.1 Pro
(For lightweight/daily driver tasks, Gemini Flash 3.8, DeepSeek Flash, and Luna are still up there as favorites.)
In my experience, the difference between your 1 & 2, and your 2 & 3 are huge, and I don't find Argon to be usable for any big tasks because it really does a big mess every now and then (which Astra also does but much less frequently and not in a "I just implemented something else with unusable code" way), and Placing Kimi after it seems like a very low evaluation.
If the scores on Artificial Analysis really do mean that this model is better than GPT-6 Astra and Fable 5.1, that means that China is more like 6 weeks behind the US in frontier capabilities rather than 6 months. Which means that the US lead is all but gone.
> Which means that the US lead is all but gone.
You can see in this discussions the goalposts being actively moved to desperately create a notion that the lead is still there.
You even see people in this thread referring to imaginary wonder models that they expect US companies to have under development that are supposedly leaps and bounds more impressive, albeit the only reference there is to their existence is the commenters hopes and dreams.
I think people need to realize that there is no longer a cutting edge company that is expected to dominate, and among the multitude of AI companies in the field competition is so tight that no one would even be surprised if tomorrow some other company far away from the US was able to crank out the top performing model, or something like a small local model that outperforms mid/high tier frontier models. The local model alone would be a death sentence to US companies, who are still burning through 10x their revenue.
If true, it’s quite a bit more impressive than many people seem to think it is.
It’s incredible how little GPU compute they have to work with compared to the US frontier labs.
People thought the models are getting more intelligent via better architectures but all that really happened is that tool calling became a first class feature that every model is expected to support and RL training with coding harnesses became the standard.
Two years ago, tool calling was always considered an extra feature on top that some models where good at while other models completely ignored tool calling.
Meanwhile the discourse about how intelligent these models have become and how this is a major step or shift in model intelligence would make you believe that these models suddenly have a more powerful architecture when in practice model optimization has lead to faster but less expressive models that are still more intelligent, meaning that the model architectures didn't really experience meaningful shifts, it's that the training methods had a massive shift away from supervised training which inherently constrains the models.
The AI labs don't have a monopoly on the outcomes of RL training because RL is significantly less dependent on private data. Data helps massively for bootstrapping, but beyond post training, it's up to the model itself and every AI lab has a model so it is much harder to differentiate between your competitor if the RL training environments are the same (I specifically mean coding harnesses and Linux command line tools) because the environment here is the source of the "synthetic" data and everyone has equal access to it.
Ant/OpenAI both have unreleased models that are seemingly much more capable than what they offer today, so I'd say that's pretty unclear.
Why would they not release those models, since it would help them become profitable and beat the competition becoming the one company rule them all? Oh yeah, they are so dangerous. Well Anthropic revenue comes from only few big corporate customers, so just make them Golden Partners etc. and give them access to super-models. I doubt Google and Meta wants to crack web security.
Besides, if we start imagining super models US companies have in secret, why would we expect Chinese companies have them? Why would not Moonshot have their own super intelligence hidden in the cellar?
Vertical integration. They want to control all sectors, that's why OpenAI and Anthropic are slowly rolling out solutions for law, medicine, design and so on.
Are these models in the room with us?
Don't be snarky. This is very well known, including by public disclosures by the labs themselves, along with countless reliable testimonies by people who would know. It's actually a huge governance problem we're yet to solve.
Mathpocalypse was 2 weeks ago
I have an unreleased model that is more capable than those unreleased models (by about a gazillion times)
Perhaps you missed this part:
> Open-weight principles. These evaluations frame our open-weight release decision. First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights. We believe making K3.1 Pro available in a non-discriminatory way benefits people who need dual-use capabilities for defensive purposes. When a capable model is open and runs on infrastructure its users control, many more teams gain the means to audit the code they maintain — including legacy systems that rarely receive dedicated security reviews. We believe that letting this capability diffuse gradually — rather than concentrating it in a few proprietary systems — ultimately makes all software more secure.
I don't think Chinese labs are behind at all. I think the tell is that they keep releasing models 2 weeks after new American proprietary models that match or beat them. Suggesting they're sitting on much higher capabilities and releasing just enough to undercut
Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak. Sun Tzu
We could learn a lot from China. They know how to keep their own home grown billionaires on a leash. We in the West can't even do that.
Could be part of the reason that the frontier models are getting the administration to go a little harder against Chinese models.
Artificial Analysis index results are up, since multiple people are asking: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3-1-pro
It's 55, at 4th overall, beating both GPT-6 Astra and Fable 5.1. It's also faster than both.
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
This is 100M fewer than Opus 5.5, 40M fewer than Fable 5.1, and about a third of Sonnet 5.5. In the top-6, it's 3rd, beaten by Muse Wonder at 140M and Astra at, impressively, just 60M.
That's versus Opus 5.5 max effort, no? Opus high has the closest cost and intelligence characteristics and generates far fewer output tokens per task than the one Kimi 3.1 Pro effort level we have data for.
Yes, max effort is what the displayed-by-default score on the index is measured by. At xhigh, Opus 5.5 outputs 100M tokens, but remains only 1 point ahead of K3.1 rather than 5. And Sonnet at xhigh outputs 110M tokens and trails K3.1 by 3 points rather than leading by 3, at the same price point per mtok.
Opus 5.5 high trails K3.1 by 1 point, but outputs only 53M tokens, so it indeed comes out cheaper per-task. I think it's still remarkable that this is effectively an open model that matches the frontier for the first time in a long time, pretty much since DeepSeek R1.
The original k3 also matched its respective opus
I think that this is Kimi K3.1 Pro on max too. Unfortunately, AA doesn't seem to test for other effort levels for models not from Anthropic/OpenAI.
Granted we know that 6 Astra was built to do more computation between each token.
Muse Wonder is even higher, and there is no way in hell it's better in practice than either Astra or Fable.
Muse Wonder Full* is higher, which by all accounts I've seen it's actually a good model
I strongly like muse-wonder-full and it's broadly competent
Ah, good point; I haven't tried it.
From that link:
> reasonably priced when comparing to other models of similar price
???
It's saying that you'll do more work for the same $, but that's not anybody's experience with Kimi really.
It's true if you pay API prices overall, it's just that the OpenAI/Anthropic subscriptions provide way better value than their respective APIs, and that isn't true with the Kimi sub.
> beating both GPT-6 Astra and Fable 5.1. It's also faster than both.
Very similar to my adversarial programming language (KillSwitch) benchmark[1], at least on pass rate, it is much slower though.
1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org
I really like this benchmarking idea.
Glad you like it. Ideas/contributions welcome on GitHub btw https://github.com/dom96/killswitch
I don't trust these Artificial Analysis indexes and I'm not sure why anyone considers them authoritative, the site just sprung up a few months ago and now everyone quotes it?
From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
They are the only site that really combines all benchmarks into a single place. And their intelligence index is pretty broad, including knowledge work and finance tasks as well as coding, so if your use case is narrow it may not match the general benchmarks
Personally I do trust them, but I mainly look at the Intelligence Index vs. Time per Task, and Intelligence Index vs. Cost per Task
The per token charts do not provide meaningful information for me
I also find the provider benchmarks fascinating: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/deepseek-v4-1-flash-101...
Do you have an alternative? Its a benchmark collection. When a benchmark gets saturated, they remove it from the index and add new ones.
I think lm-arena is a better concept that reflects the actual target users, but it only captures chat, and relies on users spending their time improving it.
https://epoch.ai/eci?view=graph&tab=release-date is at least an alternative. They are slower to update, but entirely anecdotally I find the numbers are aligned with my personal observations a bit better than AA. But I am also highly aware this is some pretty confirmation-bias heavy ares of meta-benchmark picking...
If we ignore the older releases (sonnet 5, etc that exist in that one) and the new models epoch has not benchmarked, we end up with the same order within the noise brackets as in ArtificialAnalysis.
I do trust epoch more than AA due to capital incentives, but in this case I don't think like there is a difference
It's appealing to me because it's not just one benchmark but a summary of a collection of benchmarks. Also the current rankings have Opus on top by far and everyone's experience is that Opus is best by far so it's not massively inaccurate
> From my own use of the models I find their ranking to be totally inaccurate.
It's fine if you don't trust them. You are free to put together your own benchmarks, run your own tests across models, and objectively compare results.
That's how you gathered your data to support your claim other benchmarks are totally inaccurate, right? Right?
while this is an awesome model, I have a bridge to sell to folks who think (based on AA leaderboard) that this is better than Opus 5.5
> When evaluating the Intelligence Index, it generated 150M tokens, which is very verbose in comparison to the median of 87M.
So their base price is 1/5th of Opus 5.5 per token, but if you want "highspeed" it's 2x that and then I guess it generates 2x the number of tokens as well?
That might suggest that Opus is competitively priced after all.
In an agentic pipeline, the output text is 2-5% of the total tokens used, so verbosity is a nonissue costwise. Although, higher verbosity could cause input to balloon faster and potentially cost more, but that would be captured by the cost-per-task metric.
But as noted by other replies, it's still lower than Opus/Sonnet.
You pay for chain of thought tokens as well. Ex: Imagine asking for a single number that takes 1h to compute
That's included in my estimate. Take for example Opus 5.5: https://openrouter.ai/anthropic/claude-opus-5.5
Currently for today, it's 1.19T input tokens, 5.41B reasoning tokens, and 4.29B completion.
Therefore, reasoning + completion is 0.8% of the total usage. Actually below my estimate!
Opus 5.5 is even more verbose. 260M on the same suite.
Pricing is here: https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat#model-pricing
kimi-k3.1-pro $2.00 / MTok $10.00 / MTok
cached: $0.20 / MTok $2.00 / MTok $4.00 / MTok
This is a price drop from Kimi K3 ($3/$15/$0.30) despite being a slightly larger model (3T vs. 2.8T params).
I'm glad I waited a day to post my analysis of LLM price cuts because it needs...an addition.
Are we sure this is a new pretrain and not them rounding up 2.8T?
Literally from the linked announcement:
> Kimi K3.1 Pro is a post-trained version of Kimi K3, with substantially larger post-training compute
The Kimi K3 announcement (https://www.kimi.ai/blog/kimi-k3) used 2.8T and it would be weird to round that up for this announcement.
Looks like this post's using "3T-class", which I think I've seen them use before.
it's almost certainly rounding up 2.8T
lol, price mtok mean nothing if they substantially generate more reasoning token that would just add more cost to the task
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50213386
If you are expecting any sort of usable limits on their subscription plan I suggest adjusting your expectations. I subscribed to $99 a month plan and within 47 minutes with one session (not asking for swarms or anything) was limited by 5-hour quota.
Same experience. I had the $19 monthly plan for experimenting and running benchmarks, but it was a uselessly small amount of usage, a single task would blast through the whole five hour limit and a big chunk of the weekly limit. All of the US provider plans are remarkably more generous (though OpenAI plans have gotten a lot stingier lately, where they used to be the most generous).
I don’t agree. I tried the $20 Claude Plan and was able to reach the 5 hour limit in maybe one prompt.
Would you mind sharing that prompt? I'm struggling to even hit 10% of my Claude quota! I don't want more work out of it TBH but I'm interested...
I have been using DS Flash 4.1 pretty heavily. It runs for hours and hours and is pretty cheap.
I realized the other day that I had a $30 a month Claude subscription. So, I fired it up all excited and tried Opus 5.5 on a codebase I was already in with DS. After about 30 minutes I hit a 5 hour limit. The next day I tried again and the same thing happened. And it felt much slower to boot. I was super disappointed.
Did you use Fable, set Opus 5.5 to xhigh, or use 'ultracode' / workflows? That's the only way this will happen.
In my experience a single 5 hour allowance in the 20eur Claude plan equals about $5-10 in Deepseek 4.1 Flash API usage. DS is a lot more token hungry and takes 3x-4x longer. The subscription is way cheaper, probably around $200/month worth of DS, just stick to Opus low and Sonnet for most tasks.
do you use their proprietary platform API?
and how are costs like for your usual workflows/etc.?
There is a $30/mo Claude subscription?
If you're not paying in USD. ;)
DS 4.1 is basically endless, even if you paid for APIs you will hardly touch some prices.
But it's slow.
I don't think I can any longer appreciate any major difference in "intelligence" between models for most tasks but Opus is consistently much faster than competitors at finishing tasks and keeping me in the loop.
Of course excluding ultra code, the you will wait 50 minutes for a minor refactor.
It's not just prompt, it's also which model, effort, time of day, fast/flex, etc. This is why people have such different experiences.
Yeah, the $20 Claude plan is stingier than one might like, but not as stingy as Kimi. I think the best $20 subscription deal these days is probably from Google, now that Gemini 4 Argon exists and is an acceptably high quality model for coding. It's got quite generous usage and includes some other Google account upgrades (though I know some people don't use their regular account for Google AI for fear of account suspension or whatever, so the extra storage and other account upgrades are not a useful thing). I can use it pretty heavily without ever running into caps. The $20 ChatGPT plan used to be similarly generous, but no more.
Gemini isn't generous at all 5-10 Argon prompts and that's it.
When I've most recently done the same tasks across multiple providers I have a subscription to, I found the order of generosity of them was something like Gemini->Claude->ChatGPT->Kimi. OpenAI used to be a lot more generous than all of them, but that ended recently, and now it's quite stingy in the $20 plan. What competitive model has a more generous subscription than Gemini?
Opencode Go, if you think DS 4.1 is competitive.
I have a DeepSeek account and almost always use it when I need something with API access. I consider it Good Enough™, if not competitive. I also have a MiMo token plan, though that's weird in that it's not a monthly subscription, it's just a bulk buy of tokens that expire after a year, but still seems to be a pretty good deal on a pretty good model.
That's surprising, I had the exact same experience as GP. I dropped my Kimi sub this month, but I'm keeping claude because I can use Opus 4.8 basically endlessly. Even Opus 5.5 doesn't drain the usage that much, though I rarely use it because it refuses to do anything cyber-related.
It is a LOT more efficient on claude code. Takes forever to run out of credits, and a whole lot of useful code gets generated. The web Ui reconstructs code while claude code just tweaks it.
How long ago was this? The amount of usage they give you for a given plan seems to change over time, and the Claude limits seem to be more favourable recently.
I don't think the limit changed per se, but Opus 5.5 consumes a lot less usage than 5.0 did, so it goes further.
Was the prompt "Re-implement Call of Duty 4, make no mistakes"?
I had the same experience with OpenAI's 20$ one, literally one prompt to do some code analysis, it didn't even complete it.
And that was 6.1 sol xhigh, not astra max..
Welp, that ruins this news for me. I'm glad open models are catching up but if I can't practically run them locally _or_ through a flat fee then it doesn't really help me. I fear API pricing.
This'll end up on opencode go soon enough. $40/month on there gives you a bit more than just "light use"
Don't use frontier models like this for problems that can be solved with flash models, and you'll see API pricing isn't that terrible. Still cheaper than anything with remotely this level of capability 2.5 months ago.
Don’t worry. When SlopenAI and Antslopic run out of VC money, all the models will be equally expensive.
Had a similar experience here. Their limits are very, very low, and ultimately make it not worth subscribing. Can't leverage a good modal if it exhausts its 5-hour budget in 30 minutes.
Paying API prices for Deepseek 4.1 Flash feels like a much better deal at the moment.
How? I've been running k3.1 Pro with K2.8 preview for codegen (subagents) and I've only used 22% of my weekly and it's been running for 8 hours on a RE project.
Are you using k3 with thinking set to the absolute highest and only using k3 for everything?
We really need consumer hardware to catch up so we can run these models locally...
I have the same plan and have never experienced that with K3. I have hit the limit within a 5 hour quota using Swarm, however.
Yeah, the plan is far too expensive for what it provides. I wonder if the quota with these new models will be better, but I'll wait for others to try this out before wasting another hundred bucks.
but its not expensive tho ??? it is not subsidize
Yes, if you just look at API pricing, the cost is about on par with its capabilities. The problem is that we all use subscriptions, and when you compare subscription pricing, Kimi is much pricier than pretty much all of their competitors, including Chinese ones.
It also has the lowest quota of any model on https://opencode.ai/go
I think Kimi just doesn't have the means to subsidize plans.
Ya it's not very usable compared to Claude / codex
Yup, insanely low 5-hour limits.
Honestly, use Pi, start the session with K3, design it, store the design + chat history + todo with phases + why + readme then when you are at the time to build do `/model` select deepseek and let it rip!!
You can even make a Pi extension to let it switch models on its own, then tell it to switch to one or the other for a given task. It's not perfect, but it is pretty reliable once you have the instructions dialed in.
Here's mine: https://pi.dev/packages/@arcanemachine/pi-model-switcher
I have mine configured to use a "thinker" model for planning and decision making, and a "doer" model for the easy stuff (digging around the repo, writing code based on the thinker's instructions, etc.).
I run a similar setup, just with different models. I also use herdr, which lets me have the same project worked on side by side by different models, each in its own git worktree.
https://github.com/earendil-works/pi
https://github.com/herdrdev/herdr
What about via US hosted data center resellers like Fireworks?
Moonshot is 300 employees and about to do a 50B ipo. Going to toe to toe with US counterparts with not even a tenth of the resources.
Talking point #6 - https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1xdquz5/kimi_a...
Thanks for that - the other points are really good too.
Surely not really?
The card emphasizes training resources, the other comment emphasizes ingenuity and few people?
Where can one sign up to be a paid shill for open models? I'm doing this for free right now but I'd like to get that bag.
I mean... They just copy the US's homework, so I would hope they can run a leaner operation.
You mean that "homework" that the US labs stole from me and billions of others before?
Yeah, I gladly get some of the fruits of that work back!
Oh for sure. The American labs distill society.
The Chinese labs distill the American models.
Someone will etch the Chinese models into silicon and then your toaster will have depression, it's the natural cycle of things.
ugh now my toaster needs a 8t param model?? What is it doing, analyzing every grain of wheat used to manufacture my bread?
"I need to push back on that ..."
[Poing! Out pops the toast ...]
The labs stole my work
The least I can expect is to get the labs work stolen too so I can reaccess intelligence based on my work for cheaper
'just copy the US's homework'
elaborate please.
Distilled off of OpenAI and Anthropic models
since openAI and Anthropic are public about their anti-distillation mechanism, its either their anti-distillation doesn't work or kimi got here because their own training and RLs. Which one is it?
I have no idea how you block distillation. Every time you do inference, thats basically distilation.
Ah, the version available to us mortals is nerfed in cybersecurity just like the US models :(
It seems that GLM-5.3 is still the go-to for cybersecurity.
I feel kimi k3 was always 1 step ahead of deepseek, which always made it a good planner model at $30 and then i hand over to deepseek for dev work. I recently signed up for the $99, and it did last significally longer (x5?) but as long as you dont blast it too much in the 5h limit it works great. deepseek even with the newest prices is still leeeeeeps ahead in cost /benefit.
Also the speed
I really like K3, I still regularly consult it alongside Astra and Opus/Fable.
It is spiky in different places than them and can be surprising in things it gets or catches they don't or don't in the same way. And it has a default personality that I like.
Looking forward to getting to know K3.1
In looking into what Anthropic has accused the Chinese AI companies of, "distillation" is not the crux of the matter: they accuse them of the use of massive numbers of breached computers and credit cards. Supposedly (though not explicitly demonstrated) distillation campaigns used "dark web" resources (like stolen and faked credit cards and p0wned IOT devices, routers, etc) that were used to create many many accounts for distillation. (Note: I am generally in favor of distillation - it is "normal" use as far as I can see.)
So there are these "resources" out there: massive botnets, stolen credit cards and credentials, etc. These often seem to be linked to or supported by state actors.
How can we hope that these "standing reserves" aren't used generally by AIs as if they are just another "skill" they know how to leverage?
Our infrastructures need serious hardening.
I imagine that Chinese AI labs would be more than happy to pay for tokens to train on. If Anthropic goes and bans them as quickly as it can identify to them, of course they'll shift to using lots of cheaply obtained sockpuppets to keep getting the same data.
I doubt that an AI could do anything with these that legions of scammers haven't already figured out how to do - after all, it's not like AI set up this distillation setup in the first place :)
Why is that a talking point now, all of a sudden?
From my POV it looks like you guys tried "They're distilling us! Very immoral!", saw that and nobody cares, and now you're trying to run the more emotionally impactful "They're distilling us... with your grandma's stolen credit card! They're stealing from your grandma!!"
Why do we believe all of this without a shred of actual proof. Breached computers and stolen cards is straight up crime, you'd think that there would be a lawsuit or two then.
The naivete of the tech industry, who never really had to deal with China, is mildly endearing.
Meanwhile manufacturing isn't even really alive anymore to tell the tale of how things work over there.
Do tell if you know it.
Also, this is exactly what one would do if they wanted to resell cheap tokens in places where US AI companies don't do business, whether or not there is distillation as an added bonus revenue stream.
Hardening against what? Apologies if I am being dense here.
The way I see it, automated systems should basicially have access to the financial system anyways. This is some of the appeal of cryptocurrency.
Sybil resistance built into the traditional financial system (for example firewalling based on residential IP, requiring banking apps, etc.) is a massive annoyance that can obviously by circumvented at scale.
You think it is a lost cause to get credit cards, for example, less steal-able? Apparently there is a way to create fake cards that work for a few minutes, and stolen cards can be used. A lot of the current security is inelegant and lame. Could data-breech laws not light a fire under some company's asses?
I think the solution is a system like cryptocurrency to where the responsibility, liability, custody, and capability to defend oneself lies in the end user.
It doesn't even need to be decentralized: GNU Taler is one example that gets posted here a lot.
Any attempt to retrofit the old system of banking will only make it harder to replace by a system with better underlying assumptions.
I don't think older/busier people who regularly fall prey to scams even in the current system would be thrilled to assume more responsibility for their financial safety.
Hardening in this case could mean biometrics, or it could mean rethinking the trust model so that controlling an army of duplicates confers no advantage because you have to be trusted in order to do any damage anyhow. Containing multitudes buys you nothing.
I hope we chose the latter. Biometrics are creepy.
Color me naive but I can’t believe that approach works at any reasonable scale. Any meaningful token spend at distillation scale would be raising alarm bells at all the cc issuers.
No offense but you don't know what you're talking about.
Spitballing random pr pieces from companies about to IPO is not helpful to anyone, fyi.
> Spitballing random pr pieces from companies about to IPO is not helpful to anyone, fyi.
You can just use logic to come to the same conclusion. The Chinese labs have a fraction of compute and data. The simplest explanation is distillation.
DeepSeek R1 and DeepSeekMath were groundbreaking models which were substantially stronger than any models available for distillation at the time they were developed. The Chinese labs have advantages as well despite the lack of compute, too.
I'm anti-Anthropic and think their accusations are total PR FUD-packing. They don't focus much on the cc fraud because their PR firm landed on pushing the (tech-sounding) word "distillation" to try to scare people in the US and to try to make it a geopolitical issue where trade negotiators can put pressure. The Chinese companies see an advantage in being "open" right now, and it is working. They will not stay open once they see an advantage there. (Contrast with GNU.)
But I've slowly come to realize that AI+"dark resources"(scare quotes)=something bad! And this is imminent (maybe I'm naive and it is already ubiquitous).
We see here, with Kimi, that there's growing traction with the idea of eliminating types of training to avoid evil. I'm skeptical of that.
Have you trained models? If not then you can't really speak to how effective distillation is (answer: it is very effective)
lol. Have you? What kind of distill you are talking about? It’s only effective in the surface, small scale model or output preference. Not useful for long reasoning chain.
Why lol? Yes. All major labs use SFT... (look at job postings)
> Not useful for long reasoning chain.
I have a feeling you don't actually know anything about ML
Are there any free models as good as the commercial ones we can run on our own hardware?
No, technically speaking, because you are constrained by hardware. But there are many that definitely aren't as good yet still usable for many tasks, such as Qwen 3.8 27 B (and soon the Qwen 4 series too), Gemma for writing and roleplaying, etc.
Im running Qwen 3.8 Flash Next with an abliteration LoRA, its pretty good. I only really use claude sonnet outside of it, and it is on par
K3 and GLM 5.3 flash are pretty mid by comparison when you consider how much more it will take to run them
Great! next week we'll get Astra 6.1 and Fable 5.2
Probably something like:
MiniMax -> Qwen -> DeepSeek (pro) -> Gemini (Carbon) -> Fable (to beat Carbon) -> Astra (to be slightly worse than Fable but cheaper).
I doubt we'll see any major US release besides Grok in the next 3 weeks.
Would be nice if we got a Terra that's competitive with Gemini Flash and DeepSeek Flash.
The fun part is, we're already at the point where we are seeing something frontier-ish almost every single week.
The really fun part will be when they all start adding System 1-3 natively (IMO) - which I think will be the next release cycle.
> Would be nice if we got a Terra that's competitive with Gemini Flash and DeepSeek Flash.
GPT 6.1 Sol is already the new Terra IMO. Same pricing as old Terra and competitive performance with even Astra on strictly coding-oriented tasks.
It's almost like there's a dimension besides time which is important - speed, which Sol 6.1 moved vastly in the wrong direction on...
This is repeated a lot however the benchmarks show sol 6.1 does well on time per task: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/releases/gpt-6-1-sol?in...
what do you mean with system 1-3?
I doubt we'll see Grok either. After the 4.7 disaster, I doubt they want to be embarrassed with 4.8.
Would you care to elaborate? Grok is the only major model that I haven't tried. Was it that bad?
That's something which caught my attention:
> First, we aim not to release open weights that would extend the absolute frontier of cyber capability. K3.1 Pro's offensive cyber capability is, by design, below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models. Second, we intend to progressively raise the cyber capability available in open weights.
So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
> So they admit that they could do more, but they won't?
Yeah, there's another paragraph:
> Identifying and removing cyber-related data. During development, we observed vulnerability research performance improving steadily as post-training scaled. Tracing the source of this trend, we found that cyber-related content was embedded within the general mid-training corpus, and cyber-related tasks were present in the RL environment mix — a natural byproduct of training on broad data. In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
(emphasis mine)
It's clear that cyber is a touchy subject right now. But it's also clear that RL works on it, because it's highly verifiable. So smaller models are going to become very interesting, because they can be fine-tuned later to cover this field.
I'm betting this is related to China's Announcement No. 48 last week about AI export controls, since releasing an open-weight model is effectively export: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/china-proposes-new-export-...
> Prohibited: high-performance detection technologies used to counter cross-border data transmission security risks, including deep-synthesis forgery detection (266401J); AI cyber offensive capability technologies, such as malicious code generation and mutation, automated mass generation and distributed large-scale deployment of anti-detection variants (266402J); large models trained using China’s Core Data (266501J); and high-performance AI agents designed for highly sensitive scenarios, such as critical information infrastructure, national defense and core government affairs (266502J).
They also show scores for a "Kimi model w/o cyber risk-reduction" https://statics.kimi.ai/kimi-blogs/kimi-k3-1/20261023/xdev-b... Presumably State Security will get access to that on request.
I think this is misguided. Considering how much code is AI written these days do we really want LLMs writing insecure code because we lobotomised them?
I think it's political. Certain companies are exploiting as much as possible to push the boogeyman of AI for regulation.
It's exactly this.
If the "scary Chinese open weights models" can do "dangerous cyber", then we might see regulations spring up against open weights sooner than later.
I hate Anthropic and OpenAI. As companies and leadership, anyway.
Dario and Sam are 100% to blame for this. They're trying to turn us all into jobless slaves, sex workers, and Squid Game pawns.
The only good future is open weights. They're trying their damnedest to keep us under boot.
I hope the Chinese companies (and I say this as a patriotic American) slay these two companies and destroy their moats.
In my mind, the two most dangerous people in the world are Dario and Sam.
We need open weights to win.
> They're trying to turn us all into jobless slaves and sex workers.
Speak for yourself, I don't think there is a market for many of us as the latter.
Don't be too hard on yourself. There's someone out there for everyone. The problem is they don't pay well
Let me edit my comment :)
Please enjoy some time out in the nature, and chill out.
These times are not ideal but what can we do other than just take it as it comes? All the hate and rage is not good for your health.
Why do you think Dario is dangerous? I think he's genuine on the dangers of AI capabilities moving faster than AI alignment.
Which is a great example of what makes him dangerous: with the exception of Sam Altman he's arguably the single person most responsible for the current capabilities arms race.
Anthropic has pushed the frontier harder and faster than OpenAI or anyone else in the last few years. Beginning with Anthropic's founding to quickly raise huge amounts of cash with a pitch to investors to rapidly leapfrog ChatGPT in scale, and culminating with Mythos/Fable which carved out a whole new tier of super models.
He's always talked big about Anthropic prioritising safety and their "Responsible Scaling" but his words just simply don't align with reality while they keep going bigger, faster, until only OpenAI could briefly and half-heartedly claim near parity at the top (while cutting corners in safety because the existential threat to their market position is far more pressing to any corporation than some abstract risk for humanity).
Whether it's wilful cognitive dissonance, cynical opportunism, financial greed or something else, that kind of self-assured moral superiority paired with his real world record of self-interested decision making for Anthropic's market position is a big red flag.
Because his solution is to block competition and capture all the market through regulation.
VCs will teach companies all about the wonders of regulatory capture!
>I hope the Chinese companies (and I say this as a patriotic American) slay these two companies and destroy their moats.
China cares about about stability way more than the US even, they aren't going to be big on AI models upsetting the governments power, and mass cyber attacks could do that.
At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it. Worse if you start making and releasing your own dangerous models the 4chan party van is going to visit you.
> At the end of the day we are going to have to realize AI is both dangerous and governments are going to control it.
Your thinking is dangerous. Do you work for Anthropic?
AI is dangerous when these powers are being hobbled up by the select few. These systems threaten to put us all out of work. I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods, scraping up our earnings potentials, then seeking to muzzle us and put us in jails with no rights.
I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
>I would rather burn down all of tech than have AI be owned by the elites.
Then you better get your torches out now.
>I refuse to be a slave to a company or a government that is taking away our livelihoods
Don't worry, governments are fervently working on AI drones to take away your life when you get really upset about this. Oh, and they are also working at AI to detect when you write all this online, and track you down then monitor you on things like flock cameras. As they say, you'll be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes, I likely will be beside you for being too subversive.
>AI is dangerous when
Incorrect, AI is just dangerous. It doesn't matter who has it. The more powerful it becomes the more dangerous it gets. So, as you can tell I am an AI doomer.
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Now, don't get me wrong, I want freedom for me, I want freedom for other people. I do not believe the technologies we're developing are conductive to having any freedom at all. Hell, if we're lucky we'll be slaves instead of all of us dead, including the select few.
>Your thinking is a threat to all of our liberties.
Lol, now this is kind of funny. "I want freedom to think whatever I want, but you, you shouldn't think like that!". Careful or you'll max out your irony meter. Anyway, "My kind of thinking" is just next ____ prediction. I see what is happening in the world around us, and based on the shape of that probability I see what is going to happen. No, you and I are not getting unlimited AI to do whatever we want. Yes, governments are going to lock down the shit out of AI for end users. Yes, governments are going to declare advanced LLMs munitions.
Balls in your court, better think of what your next move is.
Second Amendment for AI.
If I don't get it, you don't either.
Sam, I'll grant you, is probably among the top 10 most dangerous, but Dario? The only thing he's done to piss people off is to predict, correctly, that releasing too-powerful models too-quickly would cause havoc and chaos. This prediction actively hurts his company! It actively harms his chances of a huge exit! It actively raises the probability that Anthropic and OpenAI get nationalized and treated in the same way as, for instance, the nuclear program!
By comparison, do you think the Chinese models are going to be trained in such a manner that you enjoy the society that results? What makes you think that?
> do you think the Chinese models are going to be trained in such a manner that you enjoy the society that results?
I don't need government minders.
I'll take the models and live free.
Anthropic: Touch too much security stuff and we ban you, and keep your money.
Kimi: We took out the worst of it so have at it for free.
Everyone else: Back to my ablated model on openrouter for 1/10th the price where I can brute force issues.
Ablation only works to remove stuff added in post training, if the training data does not contain the material then ablation will do nothing.
Which ablated model do you recommend for this?
Depends on what you want to do with it:
https://featherless.ai/blog/abliterated-models-for-cybersecu...
Is a decent primer, then off to open router you go.
It’s not much of a deterrent to a motivated organization.
They are basically saying that models themselves are already capable. If you fine tune them with some cyber security tasks, that should make them potent. :-/
There is no deterrent to a motivated and well resources organization. Post training a model in general, let alone just for offensive cybersecurity, is well within the technical and financial capabilities of many cyber criminals. There's just no way out of that.
Classic “rules for thee and not for me.”
Agreed that this could be reinjected later. Makes me think of neo in the matrix:
“I know zero days.”
“Show me.”
What "rules"? They don't have to post-train the model on anything specific, it's their judgment call.
The "rule" here is, if you read the disclosure carefully, that they have cyber trained models in house. But you do not get them, you only get the non-cyber models.
Post-training _is_ a part of the whole training regime.
Governments also control who owns tanks and missiles.
Do you think that going around making cyber weapons isn't going to get you buried in a shallow grave?
With frontier competitors and the U.S. govt actively pushing "concerns" about Chinese models, Kimi including this statement on "offensive cyber capability" seems like smart defense. Models are opaque and training details are trade secrets, so whatever they did might be negligible or significant and no one can tell. This bit is also artfully done:
> "below what our pipeline can produce, and remains behind that of frontier proprietary models."
Like Ant and OAI, they've realized vaguely claiming to have nerfed their latest model to an unspecified degree not only looks 'good guy' prudent, it provides a built-in excuse when a model fails.
I'm not sure if not doing RL capability gain on offensive cybersecurity can be really called "nerfing"?
They're not post training it to lose capabilities/censor them – they just don't spend training time on this topic, which sounds like a great idea.
It doesn't mean model can't do it, it just means it's less good at it; -10% on benchmark feels like a great result and overall approach to pace it.
> I'm not sure if not doing RL capability gain on offensive cybersecurity can be really called "nerfing"?
I concede that term can carry overly broad connotations.
Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records. I will increasingly show faster times though.
> Or it's a cop out. I could totally outrun Usain Bolt, but by design I don't push to set new World Records.
The benchmarks show Kimi K3.1 Pro outrunning practically all models. It's weird to hear someone like you accusing them of making up excuses for not lagging behind in discussions on how they are ahead of the pack.
Not only is that not weird, it’s Occam’s Razor in action. “We could crush the competition but we are holding back” is a laughable excuse that I’m sure you wouldn’t buy in other contexts.
> "We could crush the competition but we are holding back” is a laughable excuse that I’m sure you wouldn’t buy in other contexts.
I don't think you understand. Benchmarks show just that, that they "are crushing the competition".
I mean, remember Fable? A couple of months back it was lauded as leaps and bounds above everything, that needed to be contained at all costs? Well, apparently Kimi K3.1 Pro outperforms it.
What industrial level of cope do you need to drag in order to look at the results and claim they need to make excuses about anything at all?
Well, in the publication they claim to have identified specific cybersecurity post training tasks that nerfed capabilities when they removed them, which seems like a reasonable methodology.
Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source, this seems like a very sensible thing to do.
So they have published a reasonable means, and they have a motive. I'd put my money on "probably true".
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
Sure. The problem is that there is no practical difference between "cybercrime capability" and "cybercrime defense capability."
All of my PRs go through an adversarial security review by GLM-5.3, because it's the only smart-enough model with a good understanding of cybersecurity issues that won't regularly refuse the job. Removing that ability from frontier models helps nobody except cyber criminals.
I'm not sure I follow. Let's say that GLM remains the frontier of open source cyber capabilities because Kimi is nerfed. Your situation, and the situation of your attackers, remain exactly the same. You run GLM to audit your code, they do the same looking for exploits.
Let us say that un-nerfed Kimi was released, and it turns out to be at the absolute frontier of cyber capabilities, Mythos 5.5 level, a step ahead of anything else. What now? Well now your situation is exactly the same as before, just that auditing and hacking got more expensive. You run a Kimi security audit, they do the same to try to pwn you. However, now the cabal of Linux kernel defenders with secret access to Mythos 5.5 all of a sudden have no advantage, where before they used to have one. And even worse now they are in a literal race to be the first ones to find every bug that Kimi is capable of finding, and patching it yesterday.
So for you, this makes no difference in practice, your capabilities are not elevated, and neither are those of the attackers. The only result of the other scenario is an overall defender disadvantage.
What your argument is missing is that I'll ship security issues that would have been caught otherwise.
You're assuming that these won't matter because attackers might not have better models than I do, but that doesn't make sense. The assumption that attackers can't find the issues because I didn't find them at release is wrong. Even if they never get better models (which they will), current models might find flaws I missed, and they also have other means of finding flaws in my software.
The best defense is to make software as secure as possible regardless of assumed attacker capabilities at the point of release.
It’s highly likely that everyone has software or firmware made by Chinese engineer running in their house.
These defenders aren’t supposed to have access to the “defender models”.
The problem is, as anyone trying to address security concerns in claude can attest to, the guardrails trigger even when trying to address real bugs. Good cyber defense requires an understanding of the offense.
How you avoid the "fix my code" attack, the code being someone else's code, I do not know. But nerfing the model doesn't seem like the best path forward either.
This is not about guardrails, it's just not post-training the model on tasks that specifically relate to cyber-offense. It's a very lightweight intervention, and it makes the model less of a target for bad actors.
claude code "auto-mode" uses a smaller sonnet-like model for classifying, which means it's basically dumb, and the harness biases it into denials
I am a defender, and I really really want to have access to high quality models that are good at finding vulns and hacking. Leaving them in the hands only of government agencies and orgs with enough resources to do extensive training / fine tuning seems like the absolute worst possible case for the future security of global software systems.
Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders? Of course, you could have every piece of code go through an adversarial audit before it's pushed, but in an equal world you would have to always devote as much or more resources to this as your attackers. And historically speaking people just don't do this in practice.
In the scenario where only "verified" defenders get access to the best cyber capabilities, unverified plebian defenders and blackhats are on the same level exactly as described above, there's just also a few defenders that get to run things on godmode.
So to me, it seems that the only result of frontier cyber capabilities is removing a defender advantage. Although that advantage is not for everyone, it can only exists as long as capabilities are unequally distributed. Am I missing something?
> Well, and I am genuinely curious here, wouldn't defender and attacker capabilities being accessible equally by both parties be objectively worse than having a limited amount of privileged defenders?
Well, not really. Because those privileged defenders will never be able to predict what needs defending. So we have a few privileged "defended" places and the rest is left for privileged attackers to plunder.
Privileged attackers?? So that would be career cybersecurity experts with Project Glasswing/Daybreak/Googlewhatever access, using it to perform actual attacks? Because that's what privileged means in this context. Access to frontier models not available to the public.
> So that would be career cybersecurity experts with Project Glasswing/Daybreak/Googlewhatever access.
Yes. You really think access those models will not be given for offensive operations in each country? Of course they will be.
Well, seeing as Claude literally snitches on everyday people planning murder and Houthis building rockets I would assume that every user in project Glasswing is heavily and very effectively monitored. I have to admit that I genuinely do not think that what you're hypothesizing is happening right now. I would bet good money that the amount of people with Glasswing access doing actual Blackhat work is currently zero.
Perhaps in the future this will change, but even if that is the case, that's still a win for the defenders. Having a time advantage, even for a few months, is still a win.
Edit: Actually, the CIA/FBI/NSA/Etc.. does probably have access and are probably trying to hack Iran and so forth, so my comment above is probably technically wrong in that respect.
> I would bet good money that the amount of people with Glasswing access doing actual Blackhat work is currently zero.
I think it's not "blackhat" in that sense because it's officially sanctioned. Same goes for equivalent models overseas.
The only thing these embargos achieve is giving massive nations a huge advantage, but leaves the average country and person exposed.
I edited my comment above before realizing this is what you meant. And its a valid point I concede. Still, I disagree that advantaging this activity is the only thing these embargoes achieve. I would argue that they legitimately also give the Linux kernel, cURL and so on an advantage. And as long as that is true, this still makes it an overall win in my books, even if it also enables officially sanctioned offensive activities. I'm not a US citizen, but I would still rather get pwned by the CIA than both the CIA and Shinyhunters.
Sounds like you would have been in support of the US export bans on cryptography back in the day ;)
Because the people I want to defend against includes those with enough resources to train and fine tune models with strong offensive capabilities themselves.
Ah, now that's an interesting point. However, wouldn't those groups just fine tune Kimi K3.1 pro no matter if it's nerfed or not, leaving you in the same position as before?
That is, unless the nerf is easier to correct as compared to "upgrading" the models offensive capabilities. So a scenario where it is easy to "restore" offensive capabilities, but hard to "enhance" them beyond the labs best attempt. So is that the world we're living in?
The groups with a lot of resources are always going to have the best tools available. The question is what tools do I (a person with limited time and resources) get access to. I am in a better position if the delta between my tooling and their tooling is minimized.
> Seeing as no one besides blackhats want frontier cybercrime capability to be open source
I'm not interested in black hat anything, but I am very invested in making sure the products I work on are not compromised. Given that state agencies have "frontier cybercrime capability", I would like to have the same.
I wrote a few lengthier comments on some other similar replies. Summarized my argument is that it seems to me to be strictly better that select defenders have an advantage, rather than everyone being equalized. If you're not one of the privileged few that might be frustrating, but open source models upgrade the attack and defense by the same amount, so open source cyber capabilities being at the frontier only results in a defender disadvantage.
Replying here also as I'm curious about the counterargument.
It would also be very sensible to offer a BlackHat Pro version to national officials, for them.
Please don't change "cybersecurity" to "cybercrime" from one sentence to the next as a rhetorical flourish. It comes off as disingenuous and makes it harder to get your real point across.
Noted. I also did it intentionally to sound a bit spicy, which seemed like a good idea at the time. So I am guilty, and I regret my actions.
"Cybersecurity" as a general term often includes offensive "cyber" which is what is being talked about here.
But the person being addressed specifically used the term cybercrime.
Black Forest Labs did similar with vision capabilities
https://bfl.ai/blog/capable-open-and-safe-combating-ai-misus...
They don't want to be banned, and maybe their best offensive cyber capability models will be for their govt.
That really does go without saying…
It seems a good portion of HN doesn't seem to realize that
We really need some breakthrough like DiLoCo does, but for heterogeneous unstable consumer hardware to make volunteer crowdsourced AI training a reality. Yeah, I understand from current technical angle how much of a mountain that is. Call it AI@Home or whatever. I never thought it would bother me personally or even become a problem, but these companies acting like gatekeepers and virtue signaling while also in bed with governments etc.. this leads nowhere good.
Yeah that's a huge downside. That the model does the task without tripping over its own feet, like discovering a vulnerability the model itself accidentally built 15 minutes ago and triggering its own guardrails, made the Chinese models attractive to use for security-adjacent things. Also useful to red-team your own stuff. While I can understand the reasoning behind it (and I guess having a model that's really good at both offense and defense released into the ether could lead to CCP asking some very pointed questions if Moonshot managed to get blamed for some incident stemming from their model's misuse) it's still a huge disappointment.
I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests and my family tree going back to the 16th century just to secure my shitty app, but if the Chinese are bowing out as well it seems the only alternative is to admit that some script kiddie with a bunch of tokens will just pwn you now and then.
If the Chinese want it, they have it. BGI does an enormous amount of sequencing. My own genome is entirely public (or was, and will be again when/if Personal Genome Project comes back) so you can watch and see if it harms me.
> I don't want to give US labs the results of my DNA tests
My friend, you realize that if you have had blood drawn for a genetic test, there is a very decent probability that the sequencing was done by a Chinese lab operating in the US, right? The Chinese probably have more US genomes that the US does.
https://pandorareport.org/the-gryphon-scientific-biosecurity...
Also, illumina used to ship products with hardcoded S3 access, so purchasers of used equipment could gain access to sequencing information generated by the original owners. Too many links to cover all of it, here's the Gemini summary:
https://share.google/aimode/4JLsHpeRCWlVqU8qT
Isn't this done so they can defuse Anthropic's excuse for regulatory capture?
Or maybe cyberweapons are actually dangerous.
This doesn't seem particularly notable and is in line with Anthropic and OpenAI's approach of restricting release/access to more capable models.
It is notable in that it’s the first time an open Chinese company openly stated they were reducing intelligence for “safety”.
“Our lock can be picked by the robot.” We ban the robot instead of fixing the lock. It’s shortsighted.
If we had a technique that would defeat almost every lock in the world, we might be prudent to delay releasing that until people have had time to change the locks.
Same general benefit as coordinated disclosure, except it's a big game-theory problem where we're likely to eventually have sufficiently capable defectors.
they're pretty clearly framing it as holding back on the robot and letting is lose slowly to give everyone time to update their locks
They are directly responding to new Chinese export controls on cyber capabilities.
Read this as ‘dear government we can train a cyberweapon if you pay us’ assuming they wouldn’t say anything if they were already paid to do that
I hope one day they learn to inhabit their position more confidently instead of merely aping their competitors.
They will. Just not in the version they release to you.
Moonshot (Kimi) seems to be unashamedly into American culture[0], I wonder if they're paying closer attention to and giving more credence to some cultural aspects of American AI discourse including aspects of AI caution/panic.
[0] https://x.com/crystalsssup/status/1944287779896328668
(note: extremely speculative and based on almost nothing, and especially near-complete ignorance to alternatives)
This is an extreme stretch before you even get into the fact that Pink Floyd is famously not American.
And Radiohead ain't american either.
Maybe GP meant to say that the model was westernized.
All it takes is one idiot who happens to have the resources to "pWm Teh Interwebs" to scare both the US and Chinese governments.
The more interesting question is how much more performance can be squeezed out by post training the open weights through RL.
On the surface that seems like a responsible thing to do
Oh great, more censorship. We wouldn’t want those pesky plebs securing their work.
Kimi is the closest Chinese equivalent of Anthropic.
Yeah but not hypocritical
Cowards.
The way to stop the vulnerability apocalypse is to fix the vulnerabilities, not to shoot the damn messengers.
I hope someone abliterates and FTs this model on vulnerability discovery so we can find more bugs in our testing, insecure tech stacks.
Good point. Wouldn't be good if there were white hat models being developed by legitimate organizations at this point?
I mean they say they will release the weights by November 4, so presumably after that it won’t be hard for people to fine-tune it to be better at cyber right?
My understanding is if something is entirely absent from the dataset, good luck trying to teach a model that through post training
Given that most of their improvements here are positioned as RL on their last base train, seems like just doing some additional RL would work fine?
Presumably if it knows how to find and fix bugs it can be told how to exploit them. But who knows what it will actually be capable of doing in the real world as opposed to Kiki’s benchmarks
It's not actively nerfed like the Western frontier models, it's just downweighting offensive "cyber" as a domain for post-training/fine tuning. Which, if anything, ought to improve model capabilities wrt. other domains.
It's a bit fascinating to me how all of these labs have rolled their own (it sounds like) completely unique RL environments.
I wonder how much the industry will centralize around a few key patterns, and if we'll start to see some RL framework projects gain traction and be used by the bigger labs
P.S. weights by November 4th
Eh, not necessarily, many of the RL vendors sell to Chinese labs, too: https://www.interconnects.ai/p/glm-53-how-chinese-labs-keep-...
Kimi is so much more blunt and argumentative than USA models.
it's so funny, it will say things like. "We've already been over this 3 times and you refuse to accept my advice, asking the same question another way won't change the answer."
So funny
Haven't gotten to try it yet but that'd be a breath of fresh air. Too used to LLMs flip flopping at the slightest hint of challenge.
I’ve developed a habit of bolting on “read only question” at the end, or a simple “thoughts?” as well. otherwise there’s a high chance the model will just 180 and start editing files before even responding to my question.
I was recently adding Windows Support for some open source software on GitHub which is maintained by someone else. I gave 6.1-Sol all the instructions needed for creating a build, testing it on my machine, setting up an action on GitHub for CD, and it all did all of it very well BUT THEN IT AUTOMATICALLY OPENED A PR ON BEHALF OF ME WITHOUT ME ASKING FOR EXPLICIT PERMISSION??
That was incredibly embarrassing, I instantly converted the PR to a draft PR and added a comment that I would still need some time to verify everything locally. Ended up doing a few more commits to fix stuff. But damn, it opening a PR without my explicit permission was very scary.
It's funny because I am working on repos that only I see and use, and I tell it to open a PR automatically after running all the various checks, and 6.1-sol invariably fails to do so unless I explicitly tell it that it's ok to run the tests (remote ci from local worktree) because it won't "send the contents of the repo to a remote server without explicit permission", and then it also refuses to open a PR until I explicitly bless it. In AGENTS.md it says, verbatim, that both of those things are explicitly permitted, indeed, required, but hey...
This is my experience as well. Sol and Astra are by far the best of the models I use at following the instructions in AGENTS.md, almost to an annoying point. (But I'd rather have that problem than the inverse.)
Oh, I remember I experienced that behavior too in one of my private projects, where it didn't want to origin. :D
Basically RLHF sometimes favor "automation", and if it is not rewarded properly it will go over the line. Models are a bit more difficult to teach because their mechanism of "boundary" is quite fragile and different than human's.
Why aren’t you sandboxing your agent?
I have my agent sandboxed, codex is sandboxing by default.
That's been my experience as well. AGENTS.md just doesn't work. No matter how to-the-point and short, or detailed I keep it. Sending something what you have mentioned in the current prompt works much better. I thought of tweaking it around with a extension/hook or so. But then I decided it was better to use a few text-expansions.
I got tired of doing this and set up a /question skill that forbids the agent from doing anything that would modify my files. It makes it very clear what the intent of every prompt is.
Similarly, I have an /info skill that tells the agent to read my prompt, update any memories it thinks it should, then pass the turn.
>Similarly, I have an /info skill that tells the agent to read my prompt, update any memories it thinks it should, then pass the turn.
Could you give me a quick example? I think I’m not getting it, but it sounds interesting.
This is clever and I can't believe I didn't think of it. I'm so used to appending "don't make any changes" to the end of my prompts.
Very simple but clever solution. I’ll probably do something like this as well
I just append « talk », it works pretty well.
I suffix the message with "Asking, not questioning."
If the model has a real consistent viewpoint that would be nice.
The problem might be that it simply looks at it's windows of what it previously and repeats that. But the original statement might be as arbitrary as the model that change their mind each time you challenge them.
I always appreciate when a model does that. It's amusing, but also having it be argumentatively wrong is a lot less annoying than being sycophantically wrong.
I don't like tools that intentionally annoy me.
My reasoning is that if something is argumentatively incorrect, it is much easier to drill down to its misunderstanding and correct it. On the other hand, if it's sycophantically incorrect, it'll just change its "mind" while potentially maintaining the misunderstanding, leading to increasingly strange behavior.
I think I'm pretty used to my tools making me want to throw them out the window sometimes :) Even before AI that was a common occurrence from either a lack of knowledge on my end, or many software people having no regard for their users' time.
I'm sure tools don't like annoying people either.
It's a tool, I don't think tools like or dislike much of anything.
you think LLMs or agent harnesses have intention?
I agree, tools designed to be fawning sycophantics are annoying.
Yeah I don't know. I've had issues with Gemini where I would point to a bug and a probable cause for the bug, and it would not argue incorrectly that my understanding was wrong and the cause of the bug was elsewhere. It was really stubborn and it got to the point where it felt like gaslighting. Turned out I was right and the model was wrong. If the model argued incorrectly and was also a dick about it, I would go be really, really annoyed.
You can add a line to your system prompt to be like that. You can basically get it to roleplay whatever you want (but only if you can give it sys prompts).
System prompt changes help, but ultimately they don't do a great job of overcoming the model's learned tendencies in my experience.
I might want to try that. DS 4.1 Flash anyway fares much better at it than GLM (which is quite not so good at this aspect). Hope Kimi is even better.
I much prefer that for chat, but I'm somewhat worried that we shouldn't give tool-enabled agents an attitude. It's all roleplay, and I wouldn't want a system playing the role of an annoyed assistant to misuse its tools.
Reminds me of early test versions of Gemini Flash 2.0 (or was it 1.5?). It would argue something, try to prove itself right, realize it’s proof is agreeing with the user halfway through and, instead of admitting defeat, would backtrack to try another approach. So much fun.
It could be the system prompt
I like the anthropic has $1 trillion riding on really good models with really specific system prompts.
It does make a difference. I asked Fable in Claude code to design a UI. Absolute trash. Switched over to Claude design using fable, really liked the result. Seems pretty obvious. The only difference is the prompt and some harness.
Is there a place where the system prompts of all these models are documented and how they evolve over time?
Anthropic has this although it's not the full internal prompt: https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/release-notes/system-pro...
thank you!
There are leaked prompts on github
Thank you, I found some interesting reading.
Eh, there's good and bad. The model mostly sticks to prevailing narratives in the training corpus. So if there is something that the prevailing narrative is really wrong about, it's gonna be just as pig-headed about it as a typical internet forum rando.
Not entirely correct. This kind of fine-grained model behaviour is built in post training stages, RL, RLHF etc, where model receives rewards or penalties for talking (or not talking) a certain way
Thanks. I stand corrected.
Still mostly looking at the result the same way in that untruthful biases can very much be built into the model through those training processes. Let me know if I'm incorrect.
I don't get these "distilled" comments. How would one realistically go about distilling the 1-2TB closed source frontier model behind the oracle (provider) ? Just genuinely curious.
When people say distilling they mean SFT on other models outputs.
In their thinking and if you ask them, I've seen Kimi K3 and other models confidently say that they are Claude from Anthropic, and accuse you of attempting to jailbreak them if you say otherwise.
They're cope, as if Anthropic or OpenAI have some magic moat, and not just basically a headstart and more money.
Be honest with me, have you ever done SFT training? If not can you really speak to how useful it is?
Interesting that they specifically nerf cyper-capabilities of open weight models:
"In preliminary experiments on internal models, we found that without data removal at either the mid-training or the RL stage, downstream cyber capability would increase substantially. These findings gave us a concrete lever for control. For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness."
Maybe it's intentional so government doesn't block open weight release.
There was law proposal (rumour?) last week about Chinese labs having to get approved for weights release now.
I think my company will switch to this soon. We already switched from openAI to GLM and now this is just a better model with the same price
How many frontier labs are there right now? There's 5 independent groups neck-and-neck on the benchmarks, right?
A few weeks ago it was 2. Argon happened 23 days ago; Muse Wonder was 11 days ago.
Moonshot has been frontier since this summer. At this point whenever they release a model it's on par with whatever the latest OpenAI/Anthropic model release was.
Not sure I'd put Google there in practice. And while Muse is an impressive jump from behind it's still not quite at the frontier either IMO.
You either include all labs which can reasonably produce models which are capable enough to be considered generally on-par with the best available models, in which case there has been way more than 2 frontier labs for a while now, or you take a more literal definition and only include labs which are capable of producing models which are considered "the best" out there, in which case there are basically just 2.
I think the former definition is a bit more meaningful since it avoids issues with determining what actually constitutes "the best" model out there. In that case, Google has been a frontier lab for a long time, Meta arguably as well, and you're also ignoring xAI which has been competitive for a while now. And, obviously, there's a bunch of Chinese labs which would deserve the title as well.
But if one is being strict (and willing to accept generally accepted definitions/measures/etc.), then there has only ever been two frontier labs: OpenAI and Anthropic. They're the only labs to have had "the best" models at any point in time since LLMs became a thing.
Google definitely had the best model at points if you're not only concerned with coding, but then they didn't release any pro models for 8 months
I have gotten the same impression, great at writing text. Horrible with code and the CLI interface is unbelievably bad.
Muse Wonder is good but it's not frontier. It goes neck and neck with Opus 5.
right now it looks like only anthropic since openai made the staggering business decision to release their midrange model (terra) rebranded as sol 6.1 and quantized astra into the ground.
everyone else mostly seems to have just decided to cheat on benchmarks to make their models look better than they actually are, and none seem to want to actually try to make better models.
I thought it was 6 Sol which was a rebadged Terra? You think 6.1 Sol is too? It does seem to benchmark better than 5.6 Terra? Regardless agree both models have been very bad for openAI's Sol brand. To be fair it's at least cheap compared to other OpenAI models.
It's still just 2. Google hasn't been at the top in a long while, and even when it was, it was just a tiny improvement over what other labs had previously released. Meta has never been at the top. Only two labs release LLMs that really push the limits out.
> How many frontier labs are there right now?
As long as LLM's can be distilled, and all these "labs" (what a weird name) can distill one another, there are going to be as many as capital is available to be burnt on the topic.
I'm not sure what counts anymore. You've got OpenAI and Anthropic; then Meta, Google, and X; then over to Alibaba/Qwen, Z/GLM, Moonshot/Kimi, Deepseek; and Mistral in Europe. How many people out there in the real world can actually come up with tasks that differentiate those 10?
Mimo is very good.
Bought the $100/month subscription and hit my 5-hour limit with one prompt on default settings (max effort) in their CLI harness.
It might be smart but it's unusable compared to other subscriptions right now.
Edit: gave the same prompt to Claude Code and it didn't make a dent in my usage.
About how much would the session have cost if you were paying API prices (assuming good cache rates)?
I want an unrestricted full blown open weight model. The frontier companies can hold us all hostage
Big improvement over Kimi K3 in our data analytics benchmark: it scored a 98% vs a 81% in July.
Quite slow in our exam. A lot of that was due to the number of tool calls that it's making. In one of our questions about finding data issues in a dataset, it made 73 queries. Other models like 6.1 Sol only made 18 for that question.
Full deep dive here: https://plotly.com/blog/kimi-k3-1-pro-plotly-data-analytics-...
It would be super useful to have more specific analyses of what areas the model is good at. I'd like to know when I should reach for this model instead of Anthropic's or OpenAI's.
For example, Opus 5.5 is better at UI design than Sol. Anyone who has used both models knows that, but it's not something you can look up anywhere.
I'm sure that there's a need for this kind of benchmarking, not just for coding.
One things Kimi is useful for is accessing/querying websites that have paywalls or try to prevent use by AI agents. It is aggressive and persistent for that, though not always successful.
Not sure if this is benchmarkable besides for the own person deciding which one they like more. Models difference is more about taste, preferences and prompt style.
Furthermore, "UI design" is not a narrow enough category, I think. Sure, statistically significant differences in performance between models do manifest when benchmarking against "UI design", but there's still just so much variance within the category. Opus 5.5 can have excellent one-shot results, but totally shit the bed when it's placed in an existing codebase and should uphold the UI/UX conventions, design language, and existing component primitives already established in an app.
But that's just the obvious. There are task by task differences (component by component, page by page, context by context) that the model is worse and better at, even though they are all within the general category of UI design.
I honestly don't have the clarity of mind to explain this coherently, but the crux of my point is that there's a huge variation in it's performance in different contexts, often ones that seem near similar, and in result, even Sol can beat Opus 5.5 in some variations of UI design.
And this is my problem in benchmarking and comparing model performance in general. Presently, we try to create broad categories to benchmark against, create a set of tasks, and then average out the results. That works generally, but it's kind of misleading and it's partly what drives people to feel a disconnect between benchmarks numbers and real world usage on their specific tasks.
It's such a messy field that it's kind of maddening.
I had a friend yesterday tell me he likes the way Claude writes and finds it easier to understand compared to Gemini. But he mostly doesn't use Claude for coding. Whereas I find Claude insufferable in writing often and prefer Gemini for writing. But I don't use Gemini for coding.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
I used Claude a lot and absolutely hated it: https://blog.kronis.dev/blog/ai-slop-is-a-self-inflicted-tra...
Though to be fair Opus 5.5 is better than Opus 5 was in that regard. I still prefer the OpenAI models to either of them when it comes to regular prose, though.
idk, openai has alot of apple designers and their prototypes
Is that good or bad?
how biased you are?
Looking at their pricing page for China, K3.1 seems to be about 30% cheaper than K3.
--
Model K3.1 Pro K3.1 Pro Highspeed. K3
Input ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00
Output ¥68.00 ¥136.00 ¥100.00
Cache hit ¥1.30 ¥1.30 ¥2.00
Cache write ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00
How do their numbers compare with Anthropic and OpenAI?
Extrapolating a bit, Moonshot AI provides Kimi K3 at $15 / $3 / $0.3 per million output/input/cached tokens. A 30% reduction would put K3.1 at roughly $12 / $2.4 / $0.24.
For comparison:
So Kimi K3.1 Pro would be generally competitive with the latest Sol and Opus models on API pricing. And that's before factoring in third-party providers, some of which serve Kimi K3 for significantly less than Moonshot. For example, inference.net offers K3 for $10.80 / $0.239 / $0.21.(One caveat: A Claude or GPT subscription still gives you way more value compared to API pricing.)
Exciting times in any case! We really need more direct competition to OpenAI and Anthropic.
---
Edit: As another comment pointed out, official pricing is now available and it's about 2/3 the price of Kimi K3: https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat#model-pricing
It's too bad Kimi K3.1 Pro cached input is twice the price of Sol 6.1 at 20 cents.
Opus 5.5 is about the same price as Kimi K3.1 Pro Highspeed.
OpenAI allows you to use serviceTier=flex, dropping their price by 50%.
And not to mention the gargantuan amount of tokens you get with the US labs' subscription plans. I still cannot see a reason to use this as an end consumer.
Kimi K3 has been my go-to model for its writing style and (prior to Muse Wonder) my go-to for a third opinion during multi-round/multi-agent analysis tasks. Its writing style is IMHO so good that, for code which humans need to review, I regularly got it to clean up the painfully verbose comments left by Opus.
I'm excited to see if its writing style and unique takes have been retained in this new release.
Kimi K3.1 Pro High is on threejseval if you want the 3D version.
Same Three.js prompts as the rest of the field, blind human votes, ranked by quality and cost. Full set of 16 scenes is live at about $0.19 a scene (about $2.97 for the set).
https://threejseval.com/models/kimi-k3.1-pro-high
It's on openrouter
https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3.1-pro
I'll wait for the openweight... btw double the price for 67 TPS... Hardly 'nitro'.
Maybe this was why the “AI trade” was weak this week.
Their benchmark result table is broken in Firefox.
software is solved what r u talkin bout?
Wonder whether they're close to Opus because they're routing to it again or what: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49647300
To be fair, there were some arguments to the opposite, but an odd situation to be in anyways: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49654350
It is pretty obvious anthropic is lying yet again if you think about it rationally.
Unlike Claude models which always hide the thinking process, Chinese models always show it. So how the heck they can delegate the api call to anthropic and still get the full reasoning? Yes there are tricks to reveal the thinking output, but they are just tricks and do not works reliably. So what would happen when they failed to do it? Cancel the ongoing token generation and revert back to it own model? What about the glitches, the delays, the changes in behavior?
I would understand if the attempts are small in volume, because normally people hardly notice it, but anthropic claims that they happened for millions of calls. Such large numbers would surely get noticed by Chinese users and got reported in the tech forums like linux.do. yet we haven't seen any sight.
They probably took real inputs and served their owned model to the user, while also getting the response from Claude to compare/train
It is not simple like that, anthropic claimed that they (Chinese labs) routed the api calls to Claude models to keep the illusion that Chinese models are also capable.
So it is not that the labs call the requests parallely and only return the internal version, but also serve those requests live so they can trick the users that the Chinese models are also great.
Which is very silly considering Chinese models are published to huggingface for everyone to test.
I agree we shouldn't believe Anthropic but if you wanted to scam people into thinking they weren't using Claude wouldn't you simply generate synthetic COT?
It is technically impossible, considering they need to serve them live and the token generation speed is a hard limitation. Just think about it, since us models hide their CoT, there will be dozens seconds delay before the first output token retuning to the user. And to predict the fake CoT correctly you need to at least read enough output tokens to make it believable. Then you have to hide their own model CoT to generate said synthetic CoT, which mean further delays. Adding up it will be at least 30s or 1m before you first seeing the thinking process.
I don't think nobody would notice such delays, because Chinese models do not need to hide the CoT like US models so usually they start emit text pretty soon
Wouldn't a delay due to synthetic COT generation look pretty much the same as a delay due to insufficient compute for all customers?
Well, that can be a recognizable pattern, too. Just imagine when you vibe code using the Chinese models, it suddenly becomes very slow then the output is drastically improved. It would be hard to not notice it.
> For the open-weight release of K3.1 Pro, we identified and removed cyber-related data from both training stages, while retaining the general-purpose coding tasks needed for model usefulness. We will continue to apply appropriate controls at every training stage, of which cyber-related data identification and restriction is one example.
Lame.
I like it. If the increase in unrestricted cyber capabilities can be slowed down, please be it. The world needs to get ready, and that takes time. Way more time than even a slow progress would allow.
Unless you want to see more of what happened the past few days.
I think the argument that "cyber capabilities should be democratized, thus keep producing them now, fast, and for everybody" is a very naive one.
I am glad that at least one Chinese company seems to be listening to AI cybersecurity concerns and did concrete steps that actually reduce the problem. This was probably at least somewhat costly to them in terms of general model capabilities as well. They'd probably have gotten slightly better coding capabilities if not for removing the cyber training data and tasks.
I am glad about it as well. Don't get me wrong, I love OSS, I love personally being able to get my hands on the frontier stuff and frontier cybersec capabilities, and I dislike a few entities having exclusivity on it. Everybody does. But that absolutely doesn't mean it's the correct approach. I think people are blinded a little bit by general principles and by personal feelings, rather than operating from a point of pragmatism, consequences, and the big picture.
Also, to note: I don't claim to have the answers either. I don't even hold a strong position on this issue yet. I'm just sharing some of my intuitions, and reacting to people who, as far as I'm concerned, are making this issue all too simple.
How does "the world" get ready, when these limits are so hard core that Opus regularly stops working when I'm just trying to find and fix security exploits in my apps?
Currently available, unhindered models can already find a bunch of exploits, not because they're smart, but because they're cheap and smart enough to just keep going for hours or days until it finds something.
The defenders, especially in the FOSS space, only have one big advantage: Unified scale. If defender A finds a vuln, then defender B doesn't need to find it again. Attackers generally act alone, so they need to do all the work themselves.
If we remove a bunch of defenders, the attackers are back at it again.
Most low- and medium-handing fruit vulns can be found and exploited by GLM and some knowledge already.
Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments, Pandora's Box is already open for cyber-related stuff.
The Pandora box can expand even further, and it matters. If it didn't matter, like you seem to be suggesting, then by the same logic there isn't a reason to push for further open-source development.
> Kneecapping cyber vulns only serve governments.
Uhh, no? Kneecapping cyber vulns server most of us. There are negatives to kneecapping it, but let's not pretend like it's perfectly okay and safe for everybody in the world to have a magic box that can hack anything and cause havoc all over the world. The more powerful, cheap, and accessible this magic box is, the worse the consequences.
This is a hard problem and there's real tension - like you said, the playing field not being leveled is a problem (major companies / entities / govts having exclusivity on the best cyber abilities etc), but everybody having access to it is a problem as well.
So let's not pretend like this is a simple problem, and don't say that it only serves the govt. That's very silly.
Yes, thank you Moonshot for not throwing open Pandora's box and seeing what happens security wise.
> The world needs to get ready
How will it do that without a model that's good at security? You gonna have humans manually secure the millions of lines of new AI-generated code, in addition to the existing code? Suddenly people will start doing the job they haven't been doing up to now? Not only are we not capable of auditing all the code, it would take decades to finish, and new code will be coming out at the same time. We can't catch up by hand.
The only way to fight this fire is with fire. We need AI hacking tools to find our security holes quickly and patch them. Otherwise we're just churning out more insecure software, and the only people who can defend against it are the governments who don't want to patch the holes (because they want to be able to exploit them). Without open tools, we all lose.
I disagree with this completely.
If I were them, I'd release the weights and claim I had nerfed them for safety, having done no such thing in reality.
Hallu Bench Hard: K3 at 23.4%, K3.1 at 8.3% which is very nice improvement!
it gets harder by the day to justify >$1T valuations for OpenAi and Anthropic
Even with Chinese models this close Moonshot only makes $1B in revenue compared to $60B for Anthropic. Enterprises (where all the real money is) will almost always pick a turnkey solution like Anthropic rather than messing around with running their own open weight setup
Nobody has to "run their own setup". Just buy inference from one of the many different open weight inference providers out there. You can use non-chinese ones as well if you don't trust Moonshot AI.
At this point, the only reason why Anthropic has an advantage is laziness on the deciders' side (of which there is a lot) and, for non-coding work, the Claude harness is significantly better than most alternatives. For coding there are several model-agnostic alternatives on par or better than the frontier labs' own offerings. But arguably that is not yet true for office/document work.
If you only have to look at revenue to determine the value of a company stock picking must be very easy for you.
Calculate the price to revenue ratio of all companies and select whichever ones have the best ratio.
Not saying that's the only metric that matters, but if the closed labs are truly threatened by Chinese and/or open weights models the evidence has not showed up in the financials yet
i agree with this, "Enterprises will almost always pick a turnkey solution".
For now it's Anthropic. But i don't see how they can maintain this leader position when other companies can provide similar services with models good enough for 90% use cases and at way lower cost.
Anthropic so far is doing a good job building and serving frontier models, they built a nice toolset around it (the web ui, desktop and cli apps ...) but the problem is to justify their IPO price and the huge investments when their moat is so thin
That's fair, the moat is definitely thin now, but despite that we still haven't seen a mass exodus from enterprise to cheaper models despite ~1 year of these models being actually capable enough to use in a professional setting, their growth numbers remain ridiculous. Whether their moat is inherent bureaucracy in switching, liability, odds that they will remain at the frontier long term, or whatever, it appears to be working (so far).
I don't think so especially when cost of building software is approaching zero.
I read somewhere that Chinese SOTA work better in chinese, and worse for English or other languages.
I rarely use any other languages but English for LLM tasks for reasons of sharing across the world.
Maybe that explains Chinese models been subpar for me. Don't tell me the bench marks here are based on Chinese languages only.
Unless I see the diff, I won't use more Chinese models be it cheaper or faster since I can't get the same perf/intelligence with English.
I've consistently heard the opposite from Chinese programmers. Maybe the performance is better in some tasks or maybe the sample size of San Francisco is just skewed.
I feel like many models are overfitting. When it comes to software development, only Opus actually saves me time.
Sol requires some back-and-forth. Other models, like Muse Wonder and Argon, are a total waste of time. They require way too much effort to get things working.
Given the same prompt, Opus can work for hours to deliver a solid result, though it sometimes overengineers things. Sol takes about 80% as much time and delivers a slightly worse version.
Other models just tell me they're done after 20 minutes.
WTH? Am I using the model, or is the model using me?
Are you using same harness/agent on all of them? It makes a huge difference for long running tasks.
The china models are extremely interesting, first the new releases from deep seek, now this. The modern race to AI is better than it were the race to the moon.
Using it now via API (3.1 Pro on Open Router) in a HITL setup (Cline in VSCode).
Off-hand it's quite good. I've been using K3 for the past few months almost exclusively for coding work and have been stunned by how good it is. Excited to see how far 3.1 Pro can be pushed.
Is highspeed a different model like a flash model or is that just a api/platform feature thats a normal fast mode? I can't tell from the announcement but I might just be missing something obvious?
Same model, faster inference
That's quite an impressive jump
what's the general tool recommendation for testing all these releases? I mean like a good frontend. I know of open router for accessing these.
I wish Opus 5.5 had an alternative just for the sake of not having a monopoly, but I have yet to see a model live up to its benchmark scores except for Fable and Opus; there is something about Anthropic that no other lab has.
Astra is very strong.
Yeah, but it's not good enough. Ask Opus and Astra to make a landing page about lemon pies or whatever. Opus will get you a better result almost every time.
What are you using for testing vulnerabilities in your own code?
Claude gates on me like a stupid nanny with some cybersecurity bullshit (like bad actors haven't found a way around).
Pelicans are solid: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Here's Kimi K3 for comparison, though I didn't try that on different reasoning levels: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Update: I ran all three reasoning levels against K3 again: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
I think I have yet to see a pelican where the left leg and pedal are drawn on the left side of the bike.
There have been a few that get that right - most notable Qwen 3.8 27B running on my laptop: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Aug/16/qwen-38-27b/#the-defau...
Also the recent Geminis - https://simonwillison.net/2026/Oct/13/llm-gemini/ - and GPT-6 Astra on Max: https://static.simonwillison.net/static/2026/gpt-pelicans-gr... - and Claude Fable 5.1 https://static.simonwillison.net/static/2026/claude-pelicans...
GLM 5.3 not only got that part right, but animated it: https://crimson-jeri-74.tiiny.site/
To be fair I have a feeling that if you added 'animated' to the SVG request, the output quality from many other models would improve, just because of the extra chain-of-thought work needed to fulfill the more complex request. IMHO the animation requirement should be added to the canonical pelican prompt.
Simon's comment apparently got flagkilled; I vouched for it.
If enough people are flagging it, we may be at a point where the pelican benchmark is truly overdone.
Please do not decrease the useful signal with this noise
Is that even a debate at this point? Doing my job as a netizen to maintain signal/noise ratio
definitely not frontier though, as even on max both legs are in front of the frame; although I am wondering how much getting that right correlates with model intelligence.
The biggest (of many) failing of the pelican test is that it's only one prompt - what matters most these days is how well a model can drive a lengthy agentic tool calling session.
I like the low effort one most.
Can I just say that I love how you are also just always here the moment something drops lmao. Hope you're all well! The pelicans indeed are solid.
If those are true then wow
The announcement page is very extra: https://www.kimi.ai/blog/kimi-k3-1-pro
the west perceived hegemony is cooked, so long, and thanks for all the hollywood.
looks extremely impressive, the full benchmark table isn't opening for some reason though so do we really have agi if small important things like that keep breaking?
It's broken for me in Firefox, worked with Chrome.
How does it do on DishwasherBench?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50068437
Great idea for handling their cyber, by nerfing the model specifically for cyber through removing cyber data from pretraning. This is a way better approach than refusal, which can be trivially abliterated out.
If someone wants to use this model for hacking they will have to train the 3T weights to do so, at that point it's better to use GLM 5.3, so by making it economically unviable to use their models for offensive cyber Kimi has effectively made themselves immune to being targeted in the cyber regulation push efforts.
This is what *actually* pacing the (cyber) frontier looks like.
Post-training (i.e. RL fine-tuning) not pre-training. This is just a post-trained checkpoint of the K3 pretrained model.
Oops. Yes. Thanks!
kimi seems routing the input into different models, hard problems tend to take much longer time and chain-of-thought than easy problems even if the selected model is k3.1 pro
Biggest gripe with K3 was slow responses, partly due to inefficient thinking. So far K3.1 pro is almost twice as fast as k3 on our benchmark.
This is a frontier level model and is at worst 1 month behind Anthropic and OpenAI.
Which is also gonna be open weights on 4 Nov.
When the frontier is pacing itself in its speed in terms of adding new capabilities (notice how fast opus 5.5 got released after Astra), then that also means that the open weights models which were just behind are accelerating in their speed just as much as well.
Good news for us because the models which used to feel 6 months behind now feel like they are lesser.
Double threat to Anthropic and OAI because if open weights models become good enough at the current level of Sota while being cheaper (which time will tell if this model fits the bill or not), then people will use those models instead of OAI/Anthropic provided it is "good enough"
Though it has to be said that only real world use case can be trusted but I remain optimistic and hope that this turns out to be good in real world use cases as well.
But in my opinion, all of this is really good for us end users!
> then people will use those models instead of OAI/Anthropic provided it is "good enough"
The only reason people aren't doing this is that hardware prices are high, thanks to, well, OpenAI and Anthropic :D
I wonder when will this madness end
SWE2 is post trained apparently on Kimi 3. Using it now on Devin, as it's free until the end of the month for a pro account (hey, $20 a month), and it's pretty strong. If I had to pay for tokens I'm not sure how efficient it would be, but definitely Kimi 3 seems a great base. I co-code with ChatGPT 6 and between the three of us it's pretty effective.
So interested to see what the Kimi 3.1 has to offer.
So I just created a brand new Kimi API account and it seems I have no access to this new model. Is this expected?
Wow. that's a beautiful website
Not the point, but did Moonshot AI announce this at Saturday 1 AM in China? Weird timing for a model drop.
Maybe limited compute to handle launch traffic spikes?
Still get the model out there.
makes you wonder if they have intel on an upcoming model drop by the frontiers
GLM maybe
Benchmarks seem amazing. Rivalzing with Opus 5.5 is something.
I wonder when the Artificial Analysis bench will be out?
this is fun to watch, next week : new fable and astra, also where use muse wonder in this benches? they where leading model in many of these charts.
So, the US economy spends trillions of dollars to be at the "frontier" and China puts out a model that basically does the same thing, for free, and for a tiny fraction of the development cost. How is this sustainable?
It's not like US companies spend trillions on training itself.
Mostly it's datacenter build out and circular financing magic when the same dollars being commited multiple times by multiple companies passing hot potato to each other. They basically commit capacities 2-3 years ahead.
It's 'sustainable' because there's enough regulatory risk to using Chinese models that many will avoid them, and a 3T parameter model is still a bit beyond even many enthusiasts for running locally.
That regulatory risk argument won't work forever. It's the same with how the US bans chinese EVs which is why Tesla has high market share in the US, but in the rest of the world, chinese EVs are doing big numbers. The future is going to be full of surprises.
There are US companies hosting the open weight models in US data centers.
Being hosted in the US is not necessarily enough. I am not allowed to use them even if I run them on my own work-provided computer.
its hyperscalers and neoclouds data center build out that ate those trillions.
a lot of those money is the commitment from US AI labs that's not yet spend until the data center is roll out.
you are conflating.
Maybe I'm conflating. I could be dead wrong about all this. But I'm trying to zoom out and look at the big picture. So, I'm letting the details sort of blend away and I'm just asking myself: "Is such a large financial sink in our economy, at the macro level, really going to offer the value that the investment warrants?". So, the particulars of who exactly is spending what where I guess doesn't concern me as much. What I'm thinking about is American companies, American people, American dollars going to something that seems like an iffy value proposition.
Now, if you tell me American businesses are turning cheap Chinese tokens into goods and services of high value, for Americans and people all over the world, then obviously I would have a different outlook on what's happening here.
You are conflating. The build out is almost entirely for running inference, not training. Open weight models will make that inference build out bet more likely to work as it adds diversity to the suppliers, all the data centers are not beholden to just OAI and Anthropic to buy their compute - they can host their own models (even Chinese ones, in America) if that becomes a popular option.
Zooming out, I think that build out still makes sense. There will be losers in it, but think about how ridiculous the amount of compute we're using has increased from 4 years ago. If I had to guess 60-70% of developers and engineers everywhere in the world are now burning thousands in compute individually every month, whereas it was previously approximately 0.
I see. So maybe the situation isn’t as bad as I thought. I was thinking if you took all the money and resources spent on building the biggest models, across the two big labs, the hyperscalers, the dozens of neo labs, and you reallocated that money to building value on cheaper Chinese models that would be a much better proposition than doing whatever it takes to be head of Chinese model performance by a few percentage points for a few months. And I wasn’t just referring to the cost of training one model, I was considering the total cost of maintaining an entire ecosystem with the ability to do this.
But what I’m hearing is this is a negligible cost compared to inference buildouts. Fair enough.
There would be no Chinese model without US models to distill though. So, in a way, the Chinese models also cost a trillion dollars, they just don’t cost China that much.
No AA scores yet.
Page isn't up but it's a 55 (4th overall) https://x.com/ArtificialAnlys/status/2113688083145314416
No comparison against Gemini 4 Argon?
kimik2.5 flash was the game changer
What is the best subscription to use with Kimi to use for software engineering work? And how is usage? I remember when K3 came out it burned through usage at an insane rate. Is this still the case with Kimi K3.1 Pro?
It seems so, judging by quotas on https://opencode.ai/go
Do you use OpenCode Go? Any way to speed-up the response times? It's painfully slow right now. Or that's the cost? :)
https://x.com/LLMJunky/status/2113692382268936566
Their plans are utterly worthless seems like. Will avoid.
> Kimi K3.1 Pro is a post-trained version of Kimi K3, with substantially larger post-training compute.
It's very nice that we entered a time where models are large enough and we can push the frontier just by training them longer.
When the next generation of gardware comes the ones on the smaller size will be running on a computer that might cost as little as a good car.
So after a home and a car, next major family purchase might be personal AI. And when the robots get good, pehraps in a decade, a fourth major purchase might pop up that will pair nicely with the third one.
Why would a family need an AI? Maybe it's the same kind of question as why would it need a personal computer.
55 on AAI, really awesome
That's incredible
Is Kimi abliterated or uncensored?
no
That's nuts.
I've not tried it out, but in the past I've been pretty disappointed in the performance of Kimi models. Deepseek, Qwen, and GLM all appear to perform much better even though Kimi often has higher benchmark scores. Ditto for Mimo.
The older Kimi K models (2.5 and 2.6) weren't bad for the time, but all of their models have had problems with overthinking. This also makes them significantly more expensive in practice than their pricing suggests, since they produce way more output (reasoning) tokens than most other models. Anecdotally, I've also had problems with all the pre-K3 models thinking themselves in circles trying to solve very simple problems that other models didn't struggle with. (I haven't played with K3 much because it's just too expensive.)
Same for me, however! Check the price-per-task table. They claim to be cheaper than GLM 5.3.
Edit: or they lie... https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3-1-pro
For me, it is the opposite. It may be slower but it follows the rules better and makes less stupid mistakes, it takes less time to merge the solution.
I have the opposite impression. I find K3 to be extremely capable at full-stack work; its UI design skills are great. I'd love to use it more, but the quota on Kimi's plans is abysmal. I wonder if these new models improve that.
I loved kimi, but had the same issues with usage limits. Now is too late for me to comeback.
Yep, and often actually very expensive to use. More expensive than the frontier models because there's no realistic coding plan.
whats the decode tok/s speed?
<thinking>
if this model is truly not distilled/benchmaxxed, then why are not investors pouring trillions into moonshot?
Your question is vague and you didn't explain your point of confusion but consider the fact that securities laws are not fungible between nations.
first time? Welcome to the irrational SV investor world. Its about hype, perception, politics, perceived future returns, not actual market fit and the proven viability of a technology. Its pets.com, myspace, and NVIDIA pumps because people want to 10x the money now.
Everyone and their dog has been saying its a bubble, there is no moat, this is all known techniques being scaled (very inefficiently) onto increasingly expensive hardware clusters at exponential cost, etc.
Now I wanna see its slopcode ranking.
Wow.
its better than trillion dollar companies model (Argon)
"We Must Pace the Frontier"?
This probably doesn't move the frontier, it just sits at the current frontier (opus 5.5).
Chinese models never agreed to the pacing anyway lol.
Maybe not the raw intelligence/bench frontier but probably the cost per intelligence frontier.
Not for sub prices (Claude plan is way cheaper than Kimi API prices)
It's pretty meaningless to compare plan to API.
You're right, but I believe Kimi plan is barely subsidized.
"We must start a cartel with Google, Meta, and OpenAI"
these motherfuckers went from distilling claude to distilling ChatGPT lmao
it's better than all OpenAI models
Tech blog and benchmark scores now available here: https://www.kimi.ai/blog/kimi-k3-1-pro
It appears to be generally frontier-level.
Ran it on my adversarial programming language (KillSwitch) benchmark[1]. Very significant improvement over K3. On par with Gemini 4 Argon and Fable 5.1. Much slower than both though.
But this is now the highest scoring open-weight model. Amazing stuff.
1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org
Why does your benchmark have Opus 5 scoring the highest?
Because Opus 5 is the best at their benchmark.
yeah, it performed best for whatever reason. More specifically, it managed to deduce the meaning of the hack statement in the language better than Opus 5.5 did.
How many runs you make for each model?
Do you report an average score or the highest.
2 runs for each task, for each task it's either a pass/fail (the small green/red dots show each task pass/fail)
its not open weight.
Can someone please tell me what benchmarks to look for that measure world knowledge? For sspitballing, critical analysis, business projects, etc. Is the model size the only way to measure it?
AA-Omniscience
AA-Omniscience is done with search off though which is not necessarily a very common scenario nowadays.
I'll wait for the pelican benchmark.
here's a fun benchmark https://fenderog.com/art-crit/page.html?p=ceate-an-svg-of-an...
I always assume they are benchmaxxed until proven otherwise.